How do I go about

[Farm Girl]

We have about an acre of "farm yard" in front of our house. I have the barn, a chicken coop and large round pen out there.

I want to make a practice pen for my dogs to work sheep and eventually to charge others for practicing.

I want to know how big pens and pastures usually are for practicing and what kinds of set ups people have for this or like the best.

We have about 20 acres of pasture, but it is in a long parcel and has electric wire. We found out last year that we could not keep sheep in it. I think mostly because they were bottle fed and wanted to be with me 24/7. After the experience of my flowers and strawberries being eaten all summer long last year I didn't want bummer lambs this year, but my husband does and even more lambs than last year. He promised to make a pen that they will not get out of.

So I agreed, but I really want to do it right this year and be able to use the sheep for my dogs. I'm also trying to convince him to save some ewes, breed them and let them raise their own babies so I don't have to. He just wants to butcher them before we have to worry about shearing. Any advice or thoughts?

[Farm Girl]

I just wanted to add that if we had the right set up where the lambs weren't such a pain to keep my husband would be open to keeping them year round so I could use them for my dogs. Help so I can.

[Alicia]

I dont know waht fencing works best for sheep but, I do have 2 goats and they are often harder, or so I've heard, to confine then sheep. What we've done is a combo of no-climb fencing (the kind with the 3X5in rectangle holes, you could probably use the larger holes for sheep if they were hornless but with goats they often get their heads stuck in larger holes )

 

We fenced in our paddock area using T-Posts, No-climb and then lined it with a lower and upper electric wire to keep them from rubbing on it below and climbing on it above.

 

Dunno if this helps you, but this is what works for keeping my crazy goaties in.

[juliepoudrier]

Just a thought--bummer lambs are generally not going to be the best sort of sheep to work dogs on. They don't behave like regular sheep. IMO, it's less labor intensive to let the ewes raise their own lambs. If you don't want to be bothered with shearing, look into one of the hair breeds.

 

As for fencing, I prefer field fence, but if you have horned breeds, something with smaller openings, like the no-climb fence, would be safer for the sheep. High tensile electric can work, but sheep in full wool could slip through, especially if you don't have very many strands.

 

There are also several varieties of electric net fencing, from the more temporary to the more permanent. Some folks have great success with that type of fence, and it would allow you to set up a rotational grazing system if you wanted. I intend to use elctronet inside a field fence perimeter to make sure the sheep graze all parts of my fenced area equally.

 

J.

[Eileen Stein]

I agree with Julie that bummer lambs are undesirable for training with because they don't behave like normal sheep, and that it's much less expensive, in terms of money and effort, to let the ewes produce and raise the lambs. I know somebody who started out with four ewes; each year she and her dog would work the lambs from weaning until slaughter, and she would have new lambs to work the next year. She has a much bigger flock now, but that worked well for her for several years.

 

As for charging people to come and work their dogs, it is not hard on sheep to be worked by a fairly well-trained border collie, but it can be very hard on sheep to be worked by beginner dogs and the less-talented "Herding Group" breeds. If you were to have many customers in the latter category, you would need quite a few sheep and they would have to be a certain kind of sheep -- very dog-broke and settled. I don't know how many lambs you have now, but the four-ewes-and-their-lambs model would probably not work if you had a lot of customers with untrained or poorly trained dogs, though it would work well for just you.

 

A good training/practicing setup would be a ring or round pen about 60' in diameter for starting beginner dogs. Plus a paddock perhaps 120' x 200' for them to move to after they have the basic idea and are under some kind of control (or to start dogs who are under good control and have pretty good moves to begin with). Plus the biggest area you can fence off without it being very long and skinny, for advanced dogs. It's nice if two of your areas have a common fence, because moving sheep between pens or fields is a useful exercise once the dog has reached a certain stage of training, as is taking sheep off a fence if there are sheep on the other side of the fence as well.

 

But I'll be interested in hearing what others have to say, since there are a lot of different styles and preferences in training sheepdogs.

[Maralynn]

Have you looked into Hair Sheep? They have become quite popular in the last several years due to the work involved in shearing and declining wool prices.

[Farm Girl]

Thank you all for your advice. I talked to my husband about getting some ewes instead of bummer lambs and getting at least 3 (I want 5). We are getting the bummers for free, so I used the argument that by the time you pay for the milk replacer it costs more than just buying a ewe. I don't know if that is exactly true, but it worked. He's going to ask the sheep guy how much he will sell us a ewe for.

Also he was told that keeping a ram around is a pain and can be dangerous with little kids. We have a 5 and 2 yr old. Do any of you have problems with rams?

I have the right size round pen and paddock, we just need to get the right fencing for the paddock.

How many sheep do you think I would need to keep to be able to charge people without stressing them too much?

If I can convince my husband it is worth while we have another part of the farm we could fence in for summer pasture. We talked about it last year, but the bummers were such a pain I didn't want anymore sheep.

And I'm going to look into hair sheep right now. Thanks

[Mona Howard]

Please do not get a ram if you have small children, they are very unpredictable. If you want to raise lambs you can always get an older ram lamb for about 6 weeks to breed the ewes and then sell him again before he gets some age on him and gets an attitude. Children can be taught to stay out of a ram's pen but we all know they do not always follow our directions and may suffer disasterous results.

[Pearse]

Like Eileen said, untrained dogs are hard on sheep, so you need to have enough sheep to swap out.

 

Anyone who wants to work in a 60' round pen has an untrained dog.

 

I wouldn't work even trained dogs on the same packet of sheep more than a couple of times a day. It's not fair to the sheep. And, if you only have five sheep, they're going to get sour on the whole dog work idea pretty quickly.

 

Sheep aren't dog toys. They don't deserve to be constantly harassed by untrained dogs every day just because some of us want to play at sheep herding with our Border Collies.

 

The point of training Border Collies to work stock is to train them to move the stock in as stress free a manner as possible because that represents good stockmanship. Sticking three sheep in a round pen day after day with untrained Border Collies and untrained handlers is not good stockmanship.

 

The concept of stockmanship is being largely neglected in the training of Border Collie handlers, in my opinion. I think people are well intentioned but too much thought is being given to what is good for the dogs and fun for the handlers and far too little thought is being given to what is best for the sheep. In real stock operations that would be the prime consideration since even moderately stressed animals lose condition quickly.

 

This isn't directed specifically at Leah. More a reaction to what I've been seeing and hearing over the past couple of years, but Leah, if you can only manage three or five sheep on your place, save them for training your own dogs, and when you aren't training your own dogs, leave the sheep in peace. Your own dogs will benefit from it as much as the sheep will in the long run.

 

But I would ask everyone to give some consideration every time they go out to work their dogs as to what effect it is having on the stock.

 

Pearse

[Black Watch Debatable]

What Pearse said.

 

Great, important post.

[Farm Girl]

I promise the well being and health of my sheep will come first. I understand perfectly what you mean Pearse.

My small goal of having sheep is food for our own table. And trust me my husband won't let me harass them too much, because of this.

If sheep turn out to be worth while I plan on keeping more than 5. We actually live on 1,000 acres and I will need dogs to move them around.

I just thought it would be nice if I could figure out a good way to share my sheep with people who who don't have land and their dogs.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

What Pearse said. Besides the stockmanship factor, being generous with your sheep isn't all it's cracked up to be. Many people are thoughtless, demanding, ungrateful, and bad mouth your sheep and facilities around the grapevine, no matter how accomodating and hospitable you were.

 

I don't give away sheep time to anyone but my closest friends for that reason - at least if I have problems with my friends I don't feel any barrier to just putting my foot down (not that I remember any need to, recently). And those friends know the value of what they are using and put time into the care of the sheep on request (is that your favorite shirt? ).

 

I love, love, love having people over to work dogs, but I've been burned badly too many times and now to protect my sheep, sheep time is no longer free or unscheduled.

 

I do think it's an important thing to foster stockmanship in a community by making such a resource available to people just learning to work. Even farmers don't have ideal places to train or good stock to start dogs on, so I've come around on the need for good sheep "for dogs." But everyone who approaches such sheep should remember that they are stock first and it's our job as people to take care of them first and foremost.

[kelpiegirl]

It seems to me that the current fad of folks ignoring the welfare of the stock simply put, makes no sense. Those of us who spent much of our young lives on farms learned from the GET GO that the animals are to be treated with respect, and care. If someone is adverse to handling animals less than humanely- it is a deeper issue that just not being taught- it goes to a lack of character of the person. It is a privelege to own sheep/animals, and if you can't pay that back by humane and decent care, you shouldn't have that privilege.

 

Julie

[Pearse]

I don't think it stems from callousness, just a failure to consider it.

 

I was not raised around stock but was just lucky enough to be introduced to working dogs by people for whom the welfare of the animals is really important. So, I got taught both things at the same time. I think some people are missing that part of the lesson.

 

I don't necessarily blame newcomers for their lack of consideration towards stock. I think it is something that experienced people take for granted and therefore don't perhaps empasize enough when people come for training.

 

On the other hand, there is an emerging group for whom "herding" is a sport and not work. There is a danger that if this aspect of education is neglected the livestock will become accessories like a set of weave poles, and get neglected.

 

Pearse

[stockdogranch]

Yes, I agree with Pearse. There are too many people with no livestock background who don't seem to realize (or care?) that their dog is harassing the stock. That's a very important part of the training--treating stock properly!

Anna

[Farm Girl]

Rebecca the point you made has hit a sour spot with me. If sharing my sheep is anything like boarding horses than I don't want to do it. I just went through a big ordeal with letting some family keep their horse out here in exchange for

work and respect of the barn and pastures. We were totally taken advantage of and my horse got sick because of it. We had to kick our own family out in the interest of our animals. It was horrible, and we're still not talking.

I will not be taken advantage of again, if I can help it. I hate getting burned for being too nice.

 

And just for the record I'm not a new comer to stock(horses and cattle), just sheep and working border collies. I will most definitely work with a good trainer before I try anything on my own, even though I have the facilities.

[stockdogranch]

Yup--unfortunately, it very well could be a lot like boarding horses...

Anna

[Bo Peep]

I agree with hair sheep. If you're only going to have 5, they are going to be "dog broke" real soon. But, good to train on in the beginning. Once your dog has progressed and you can work in a bigger area, you want a little wilder sheep, no sense going back & forth to the auction trading sheep. Also, if you have friends that herd near by you can transport a few of their sheep to your place & vise Vera. New surroundings confuse them.

With the hair sheep you don't have to have someone come out and sheer them. There's a great advantage in having them if you are just using them for your dogs.

I'm one of the people that bought sheep for my dogs, not dogs for my sheep- LOL.

I had 13, so I could rotate them and they wouldn't get tired. It gets hot in the summer. Once the sheep start to pant, it's time for a break. If your dog is good and can walk them instead of a trot, you can work them longer. Got to respect the sheep, too

[Bo Peep]

oops- forgot to add- you can work your dog with the sheep in the 20 acre pasture once your dog gets better. You won't need a fence. Keep them in the barn & on feed. If you are working with just beginners, in a round pen, those sheep are going to get tired FAST!! I luckily had 20 acres of pasture & 20 of alfalfa. and could work in the big alfalfa. area- FUN!!

[hillfarm]

I totally agree with everyone who said the welfare of the sheep comes first, after all good dog broke sheep are worth their weight in Gold!

 

I am lucky enough to have the 60 foot round pen, a 150x200 arena and an open 20 acre field to work in, and of course the field is the place I like best.

 

When in the round pen with young dogs I only work my sheep with one dog, one time a day. They get pooped with all that circling. Thank goodness my pups are graduated to the arena and working very well. My older dogs of course work in the open.

 

I am looking to buy a Ram and get some more sheep, any ideas in what kind of Ram would be best to put on some suffolk mixes? I have heard Dorpers are great any one else had any luck with them? What about sheep breeds? My sufolks are working well, but I HATE to shear, any ideas?

 

Also you talked about electric fencing, I have never tried it on sheep does it work well? Where do you get electric net? No one sells it here in Burns.

 

Lisa

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

What kind of ram you use depends on what you plan to do with the lambs. Are you going to keep some to be replacement ewes? In that case I'd go with something with a proven record at mothering since Suffolks don't bring much to the table there. If you plan to market them all by weight (X weight by X age), or to sell as club lambs, go for a Suffolk or other meat breed (Texels are my favorite in this respect but they are still hard to find and spendy). If you plan to market lighter lambs, go for lamb survivability and thriftiness - Tunis, Border Chev, NCCs, any of the hair breeds, any of the "native" breeds (Scottie, Welsh).

 

Unless you are starting a lot of dogs, you'll only use the round pen maybe half a dozen times if your training is progressing as it should. If possible, consider a 100X75 pen or larger - and buy nice dog broke sheep. You won't spend that much more on materiels, believe it or not, as you'll use about as many posts, the same number of gates, and you can use lighter, shorter fencing. We can get 39" tall field fencing for $99 for 330 feet.

 

If the bummer lambs are healthy, you CAN raise them so they don't really end up as leg suckers. The key is getting them on a self-feeder by the end of the first week. If the weather is warm you can keep them outside and you just end up being the Person Who Fills the Bottle. Multiple lambs are best as you can raise them on a bucket. I raised one three years ago, and three two years ago and you couldn't tell them from the rest of the flock today. The only thing is they really don't make the best mothers - I'm getting ready to cull the older one.

 

The OP has the best idea, though. It's true that it's almost not worth the milk replacer to raise them. Especially if you have to buy the feeding equipment, too. Some nice dog broke ewes are an EXCELLENT training investment and many times make a nice way to try out sheep raising, also. I started that way and wouldn't have missed it for the world. I'm nursing along the last survivor of that lot, nine years later (she's about fifteen and trained puppies up until about six weeks ago). She's earned a quiet retirement and she's getting a pen of her own next weekend - puppy free zone!