Where to get sheep?

[Circle C]

Hey everyone,

 

I was just wondering where I could get cheap sheep lol. I don't even know what sheep cost, but after my lessons I'm gonna need to get some I suppose....to comtinue my dogs training. What kind of "habitat" do sheep require(feed, fence, pasture area etc).....and how many would be sufficient in training a dog? I don't want to have a sheep farm, but my aunt had some and they were ok pets lol. I have horses and a couple cows as of now.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I really, really hate to be the bad guy because I'm REALLY sure you have the best intentions. PLEASE don't take this personally - I'm just trying to dispel any wrong impressions that others might get from reading this thread.

 

First, sheep are not dog toys. Don't get sheep if you don't intend to "be a sheep farmer". The sheep will thank you.

 

Sheep are one of the fussier livestock to keep alive. They are, as they say, born looking for a place to die. If you are committed to raising them, and to the lifestyle, great. As my husband says to those who are enchanted with our agrarian lifestyle and express interest in going into it themselves, "Hope you like digging holes." You'll dig some holes your first year.

 

Part one of sermon over. Just one more part.

 

I'm struck, again, by your impression that you can just take a few lessons and get the knowlege you need to know whether any of your dogs are potential breeding material.

 

As I said, I never had intentions to breed when I was first in this, but I'll never forget the day I watched my dog, who had crappy flanks, run the sheep OUT of the open gate instead of covering like he had plenty of time to do. And again, instead of catching them on the road, he simply panicked them further so that they bolted into the woods, ending up about a mile and a half away.

 

And they weren't my sheep.

 

Then I had a further revelation. The owner of the sheep was there to do a clinic. He was unphased when I admitted what had happened. I couldn't believe it - the most horrible thing that could happen to a sheep around my place was to get out of the fence. I couldn't control them otherwise - my DOG certainly couldn't be trusted to do it!

 

He (it was Steve, by the way) finished his cig, went and loaded his dog in the truck (Hap) and we drove to the field where the sheep had fled (they broke neighbor's fencelines along the way, by the way, to the tune of about $1000 in damage). I was horrified again when I saw where they were - in a big field with a single strand of electric barb, enclosing about seventy-five dairy cows. It was getting dark, all the stock were spooky, and the sheep were hiding out in a stand of woods, with the cows milling around.

 

I figured we'd be going in and I started looking for a way to get over the wire. Some friends were already down there trying (unsuccessfully) to keep the cows away from the sheep. I had visions of tackling sheep in the dark while dodging stampeding cows.

 

Instead, we stayed on the road. Steve sent Hap under the wire and lit another cig.

 

After a minute Hap and the sheep emerged and started down to the bottom where the majority of the cows were. The cows started to converge on Hap. Steve yelled a couple times to tell Hap ignore the cows and Hap worked the sheep through the herd. By this time, my impression was that Hap's handler seemed more concerned with finishing his smoke in time rather than directing his dog, as he certainly didn't do much whistling. It was nearly dark anyway and it was hard enough to see the light colored sheep, much less the dog.

 

They cleared the herd and came up to the road. Hap then worked them into the feeding chute where we transferred them to the trailer.

 

This experience, which I've retold many times, still remains the turning point in my view of these dogs. Up to then, I had an impression of what "good enough" entailed. I had a much higher standard for my next dog. And I made a commitment to learn more about what made these dogs do what they do, and to protect that by whatever I could contribute.

 

And now I have a Happy Dog daughter, which I swore THAT DAY I'd have someday.

 

[Circle C]

Well then, what exactly is a "sheep farmer" lol. Do people farm them just for wool, whats the deal? I have absolutley no clue about sheep. Cattle yes, but sheep no.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Are you truly interested in sheep? People raise sheep for the same reason most livestock is raised - meat, dairy, clothing. The ovine branches of all those are fairly specialized but the way is well paved for newcomers. Sheep have been domesticated for all those reasons for thousands of years, and for all those years dogs have been used to manage them.

 

In the 1700s, wool became the fuel that fired the British empire, and it became important to stock sheep anywhere that could support them. LOTS of sheep. As cheaply as possible. The answer was the shepherd and his dog, who could manage thousands of sheep at once almost singlehanded, except at times when the whole flock had to be handled at once (as at shearing).

 

Soon it became obvious that some shepherd's dogs were better than others for this type of very intense work. These dogs had the instincts to work far away from their handlers, the stamina to handle very rough daily work, the temperament to balance intense natural ability with a willingness to take direction, the structure to handle all types of unbelievably rough terrain, and the ability to adapt between using force and the utmost gentleness and sensitivity to pressure.

 

There was a desire to start fixing these characteristics in a single breed of dog. How would one go about doing that? By creating a performance test where only dogs that had all those characteristics would display competance.

 

So, in the late 1800's, the founders of the ISDS did just that. Shepherd dog trials were already around, but the format became standardized (more or less) around this time, and the ISDS-sponsored breed (later called the Border Collie to differentiate it from the bench breed that split off and became the standard collie) began to develop.

 

So how does that apply to us today?

 

Without raising sheep (or other livestock), there is no HONEST context for the breeder of the Border Collie to evaluate his or her dogs' abilities. If you have nothing invested in the shortcomings of your dog, you will overlook them easily.

 

Why is it important to keep breeding this way? The dog of today is still a valued partner in many livestock operations. Border Collies today also have many non-traditional roles - all of which the breed excels at ONLY because of the pressure of selection for working livestock only.

 

So, if you are interested, I say again, decide why YOU want to raise sheep. Then your dog is there to help you fulfil that purpose.

 

http://www.sheepandgoat.com/

http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/sheep/

[Circle C]

Is it actually that profitable though? and if it is, i suppose you have to have ....hundreds of sheep right?

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Most people run sheep as a complement to their farming income. Lamb prices are pretty high right now so if your operation is already set up (fences, etc) you can make some money in the nature of a self-supporting hobby. Some people also keep hand spinner (specialized wool) flocks but those are a LOT of work.

 

Yes, if you run hundreds of head you can make your living off sheep, more or less. If any type of farming can be said to be self-supporting these days. I know many people who get the majority of their income through their sheep operations. Most of them do management intensive grazing, many also run a few cows to keep parasite control costs down and diversify risk, and a lot of them utilize niche markets.

[Circle C]

Sounds like a lot of work. Plus I already have horses and some cows so I don't have the land for it. We only have about 7 acres. I just thought maybe I would get 4-5 sheep to train my dogs. I didn't think 4-5 sheep would be hard to maintain, but I guess I was wrong there.

[Circle C]

****WOULDN"T be hard to maintain**** error sorry lol

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

There are, as you can well imagine, many Border Collie owners who aren't interested in raising sheep but are interested in training their dogs. What these people do, is strike up a good relationship with a herding instructor. You can get a lot more out of working with a professional trainer on a weekly basis or a couple times a week, than making dumb mistakes on your own training sheep. Take it from someone who owns the t-shirt factory. This is the voice of bitter experience, trust me.

 

Half a dozen or so sheep learn very quickly to stick with you all the time, which makes it hard to encourage proper flanks and gathers. Your dog will come to think that sheep run straight to the handler every time no matter what he does, and when that doesn't happen, he will either lose confidence or bust them up.

 

Or, even worse, those sheep will learn how to take advantage of your dog's weaknesses. You will not have the experience to see it when it happens or how to fix it. Once they are completely "sour", you will not have any other sheep to work, unless you get rid of them and get some more - an extremely expensive way to train a dog. Older sheep sell for around $65 and young fresh sheep will cost you no less than $150 each. You'd spend a lot less on regular lessons, and you and your dog would progress a lot faster.

[Circle C]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[Tassie]

Well said, as usual Becca.

 

And if you get really lucky, like me, you will find a trainer who actually runs a full scale sheep operation, and can provide you, not just with training, but with opportunities for you and your dog to develop some sheep stock sense and to learn to do proper farm work. Like Becca says, there is a whole lot more to it than walking round a small field with some dog-broke sheep which will actually walk a course for you without a dog, and will pen themselves!

 

One of the many problems of having only a small group of dog-broke sheep is that your dog will not learn to cover sheep properly ? will not learn to cover breakaways, or get right round a large flock in a large field.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I wish I had had that sort of opportunity before I got into the sheep, not to mention the dog training. Of course I went around and offered my services as a to whoever would take them, but unfortunately none of those people were "real" producers who could mentor me on both the livestock raising and dog training fronts.

[kelli 1]

Please do not even consider getting any sheep of your own until you've had a couple years of training under your belt. I agree with all the above posts. You do not know enough to train your own dog, you can ruin a good dog. After 2 years we bought 12 sheep, put up a nice barn, spent a lot of money to do it right. We did not get sheep until our dogs were good at driving. We do not fetch them so they've stayed very light. We are not into the sheep for the money. We still train away from home (lessons/practice) at least twice a week in a 10 acre field on Rambouillet's. We are fortunate, our trainers have a very large facility and our dogs have been able to do ranch work along with course work.

 

So, think hard about what everyone has said here. Good luck!

[Bordersprings]

I personally disagree with a great deal of what has been posted here. There are many reasons to have sheep on your farm - and there are many, many people who have less than 20 sheep (and less than 10) and as a result have a wonderful farm and agarian life. Anyone who has had livestock (such as cattle) should not expect to be "digging holes". It sounds to me that your experience places you light years ahead of many in livestock care. And sharing the adage "sheep are born looking for a place to die" is rather disenginous and pedistrian. There are also many, many production sheep farms that do not use dogs - herding dogs are not essential to raising sheep, but it sure makes it a great deal more fun. I think anyone who has the resources (land, time, equipment, finances, etc) and the desire to raise sheep should be encouraged and supported.

 

I wish you great luck and success in this wonderful life style. And if you would like information on where and how to find good sheep or perhaps talk to people who have a few sheep for training their dogs, I would be delighted to assist you and provide contacts to others that have done precisely what you are inquiring about.

 

Best wishes and success with your dogs.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I certainly didn't say that someone already set up to raise livestock (sheep-appropiate fence, pens, and experience) couldn't do it if they are interested in raising sheep for the sake of raising sheep. In fact I actually said that very thing in one post.

 

My point was, again, that sheep (or any animal) are not dog toys and raising any livestock is not to gone into lightly. Do you disagree with this?

 

And sorry: every expert, shepherd, professional stockman, and vet I've ever met has told me that "sheep are born looking for a place to die". I suppose that does technically make it "pedestrian" but it's certainly not "disengenuous" in all of their experience. What would be the point of deliberately misrepresenting such a fact - which is what that term implies?

 

I do find that sheep can make remarkable comebacks from trauma and disease but catching that sort of thing and treating it takes a whole lot of vigilence and not a little head knowlege. My friends who do not use dogs are often frustrated when valuable animals drop dead and it turns out to be something that would have been obvious if they could have looked at the whole flock once a day or so. EDIT: I was just talking about this today to my vet who came to do an OPP test, and she was pleased, as always, not not spend fifteen minutes chasing a scared animal around a stall.

 

My friends who do not use dogs use a lot of expensive manpower to do very simple things. I once bought a ewe from someone and waited over an hour after selecting her, while three immigrant workers and two full time farmhands sneaked up on her in the field, tackled her, wrestled her into the "sheep cart" and dragged it back to the truck, about half a mile away across deep lush grass.

 

I worked a very small flock basically without a dog for two years. It sucked and I lost sheep on a regular basis to stupid stuff. Things took hours to do, that take minutes now.

 

So, I can't agree that a well-trained dog is just "something fun". Otherwise what the heck are we all doing here?!? Why did people take the time to develop this breed?

 

If I'm supposed to be just having "fun", I'm wasting a lot of time on dog food, 'cause I like sheep a whole bunch more than I like dogs. Sure, you can do it without a dog, but you are either going to spend a lot of time doing stuff or you spend a lot of time waiting for the whims of your stock.

 

And you will spend a bunch on handling equipment, I might add. I have NONE. We worm, sort, check and treat injuries, trim hooves, do all our lamb stuff, shear, load trailers, and anything else that needs to be done to the sheep, in open fields where the sheep are more comfortable. I

 

did this when I had twelve sheep, I did it when I had fifty ewes, I do it now when I have half that number. I did it when I was getting around with a walker. There ain't a handling system in the world that would have helped me force a ewe with lambs up to the mothering paddock when I was using the walker, but my dog Rick did it with no problem.

 

Last lambing, I had to transfer ewes and weak lambs up to a pen in our yard which is across the road from the fields. Without Rick, I couldn't have done it - and those lambs would have been lost without whatever attention they needed from me, because my physical weakness limited me to no more than one trip to the pasture a day. Was it fun? Not really, but it seemed pretty "essential" to me at the time.

 

Sorry to be so passionate, but it doesn't make sense to downplay the role these dogs can play in an efficient operation, and it doesn't seem sensible to me to encourage someone to buy sheep as playthings. Maybe I just like sheep a little too much?

[Circle C]

I agree w/ Craig and I will probably get s few sheep in the future. I already have cattle, but like everyone has told me, it's better to start your dogs out on sheep b/c it will give them more confidence in the beginning. A cow will turn around and chase a dog and not care, but I can't say I've ever seen a sheep go after a dog. Anyways, i'll only have the sheep for training my dog(s). I didn't say anything about "abusing" them or anything. My aunt had 4 sheep once. Just for the fun of it. I don't want to have a sheep farm, I just wanna have some fun w/ my dogs.

[kajarrel]

it doesn't seem sensible to me to encourage someone to buy sheep as playthings.

Amen, Rebecca. I enjoy my sheep probably as much as I enjoy my dogs. It irks me to see people talking about getting some sheep to have "fun" with their dogs. I think this attitude encourages people to be cavelier with the sheep - who, as you suggest, are living beings.

 

Kim

[Circle C]

And I have cows so I can eat them. Maybe I'll eat my sheep too. Same thing right. And if i wanna have some dun w/ my dog in the meantime then i will.

[kajarrel]

I eat my sheep too and I sell over a hundred lambs a year for other people to eat. Doesn't change my opinion one iota. Kim

[steve clendenin]

Mr Creg Rogers I have been raseing sheep about as long as you have been alive and how you can set there an tell people that sheep are not going to die and you don't need a working Board Collie is going to the bottom of the barrel for looking for a sale of livestock and equipment.

I tried to raise sheep with out a dog and had the equipment to do it with. We ran 350 ewes and it about killed us.

Even a few head takes a lot of manageing and knowlage of how to do it. One sale from producers like you keep 10 other people out of the sheep industry, because the word of mouth is the worse advertisement we can have.

I have refused to sell sheep to some people because they did not know and didn't care about learning how to care for them. THEY JUST WANTED SOME SHEEP FOR THERE DOG TO PLAY WITH.

[PennyT]

This discussion's thrust seems about 90 degrees off kilter to me. The person who posted already owns cattle, wants sheep to train her dog on, and is looking for somewhere to get some lessons with her dog.

 

Getting some sheep to train a dog on is not politically incorrect.

 

Avoiding selling sheep to people who want dog toys is a humanitarian concern for two reasons. First, if the possible buyers don't know how to care for sheep and have no livestock backgrounds, then they might end up doing something like lancing and draining bottle jaw instead of worming (true story, I swear). That problem can be taken care of with education.

 

Second, some people who own cattle want sic'em dogs and want sheep to sic the dogs on in a major way. Not good. I would not sell sheep to such people.

 

The person who posted doesn't sound to me as if she falls into either category.

 

Once you get your fencing worked out, go get some sheep, Casey. Try to get some dog-broken ones. Also get some lessons.

 

I'm with Craig on this.

 

Penny

[kajarrel]

Getting some sheep to train a dog on is not politically incorrect.

Getting sheep to train a dog is IMHO fundamentally different from getting sheep for your dog to "have fun" with.

 

A well trained dog handles sheep in a generally safe and stress-free manner. So when your focus is training, I think you're more predisposed to consider the sheep. But, as I know you know, "fun for the dog" is not always synonomous with "well trained" or even well cared for. I don't think it's inappropriate to remind people thinking of getting sheep that their welfare is important too.

 

Edit: On rereading I do think the messages took a turn, but suspect this is response to one of the message originator's other posts.

 

Kim

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Yes, that is exactly what happened, Kim. Casey is looking for shortcuts to getting to a point where she can breed her dog. She has no interest in sheep per se, yet she wants to breed sheepdogs. :confused: :confused: :confused:

 

If objecting to this attitude, especially since the welfare of an animal is at stake (not to mention future puppies), is political in nature, then call me PIC. This isn't the first time I've spoken up about this sort of thing and it won't be the last. As was said, it only takes a few "dog toy" people to give both sheepdog people and sheep producers a bad name.

[Circle C]

Rebecca, it sounds to me like you spend all your time critizing other people than you do doing anything else. And if i want to breed my dog, i will. There's nothing different about breeding collies and breeding border collies. I asked for info, not criticizm.

 

What your telling me is that...killing your sheep is ok, but god forbid i get some to train my dogs. That's all i see in theis post.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Again, not for your sake but for the sake of those who may have been distracted by your straw man, I will repeat my point:

 

What your telling me is that...killing your sheep is ok, but god forbid i get some to train my dogs. That's all i see in theis post.

Incorrect. I never said one way or another whether killing sheep was OK - many people would have many points of view on that issue and I wouldn't presume. I do not, however, believe it is responsible to a) breed a dog without regard to the consequences to the breed as a whole or getting sheep so your dog can "have fun".

 

I rarely make personal statements - you can re-read all my posts and confirm that. If my general statements make someone uncomfortable, I cannot control that from my end.