Nursery - Why Do It?

[rac]

I also enjoy running a dog in Nursery perhaps more than Open. I think Jenny hit it on the head in that it's more of a level playing field, and it's mostly a trainers' game. Sure, one can buy a qualified or pre-trained Nursery dog, but by the time the handler and dog get running well and become a real 'team' the Finals are usually over in most cases. This probably goes unsaid in a lot of dog deals.

 

I also think that the screamers and the people that put too much pressure on the dog just for the sake of 'Nursery' are self-selecting themselves out of the top of the class. I never enjoy watching a 'screamer' run his/her dog, I also never feel threatened by the score they put up. Wouldn't it be nice if screaming at your dog while it was on the trial field could get you DQ'd ? After all...we're allowed to have a whistle that can make lots of noise, what more do we need ? Like I've said before though, and also what was alluded to earlier: If you AND your dog are not having fun then maybe you should find another sport or at least quit for the day. This is esp. true of these young dogs. Denise said that Mick was the only dog she's had in Nursery so far, and I must say that I've only had 2 dogs in so far. Not all the dogs can do this. And, like what was also alluded to before, I think a more experienced hand can tell easier than a novice. Another point about the experienced hand is that they'll know what to teach when, and more importantly when to stop.

 

And Charlie, I don't happen to agree with what your friend said about bumping the Finals-bound Nursery dog up to Open. Just what experience gained on the Open field will be of that much value ? Shedding possibly ? By the end of the season most Nursery courses are as big or nearly as big as the Open, what else could it be ? The Finals contest is basically trying to find the best Ranch or Open/Ranch dog in North America that falls within a certain age limit. That's it. If someone wants to bring the dog up to the point of competitive shedding before the contest is held that's fine, but it's not being tested. I'm more of the mind to keep going with what got me there. Reinforcement and keeping it fun and as simple as possible. I can teach shedding in the fall after it's over.

 

 

Ray

[cgt]

Hi Ray!

 

How the heck are you?

 

Regarding that advice thing...

I think the intent was to get bigger outruns, tougher courses, etc. to season the dog - I don't know if I agree that the Nursery courses are consistently "Open without the shed." They often seem to be a bit smaller than Open - sometimes Open is HUGE. I guess the feeling was the Nursery Finals are plenty challenging and just because a dog is qualified at this or that trial does not mean the dog is really experienced enough for that challenge; experience with the open course might help. So, the idea wasn't shedding, I don't think.

 

Back on my soapbox...

Personally, I don't think shedding per se is that big of a deal for a young (Nursery-type) dog. I don't mean that one should try to develop shedding at a competitive open level with a young dog. (Although there is probably the occasional dog that is up to it.) But the task of splitting off a few sheep is pretty basic - and it's a task that is often necessary! I frequently start off a training session with a gather (to get me some sheep) and then a shed (to get me a smaller group of sheep). The dog knows this is how it works and seems to enjoy it as long as I keep it simple and easy, i.e., helping the dog a LOT more than one would do in competition.

 

Ray, you know how much of an expert I am, but most of the others here don't. So just keep quiet.

 

charlie

[rac]

"How the heck are you?"

 

I'm good, thanks. Amy and I often think of the times we had setting sheep at Soldier Hollow... mostly in a good light No really, it was great meeting and working with you guys. Hey, did your write up get published in the newsletter ? I'd like to see it if it did.

 

As far as the tougher courses goes, I might agree to an extent esp. if Nursery courses in your area seem to be still a little protective of the young dogs even toward the end of the season. Out here they're mostly not. The longer drive might help with your confidence, but the dog should already be doing this. If the Open dogs consistantly get tougher sheep at the trials, then this would be another thing to consider.

 

I guess the shedding thing was kind of a red herring. The point was though, that one spends all this time teaching a young dog to keep the sheep together and bring them, and then to drive them. And then there's this school of thought that says right there at the end of that phase you should teach them to split the sheep up and control one small group against the other. I think this may be counter-productive in a lot of dogs. When you (yourself) get ready to take a big test do you take that time to learn something completely new, or do you review and solidify what you already know in hopes of getting a better grade on that test ?

 

Hey Charlie, I'm working with a little bitch (yea, the one that pulled the tree limb she was leashed to out on to the field that I might run in Nursery this year. She's young for Nursery (wrong birthday), but she's really a pistol. I trained her mother, and this one is so like her. Lots of fun. Take care.

 

 

Ray

[juliepoudrier]

Ray,

FWIW I've heard similar to what Charlie said, basically that a nursery dog that is also running in open stands a better chance of doing well at the nursery finals. Having run exactly zero nursery dogs at the finals, I can't really comment on this. I wonder, though, how many nursery champions or top two (or five) were also running in open at the time of their nursery finals win?

 

J.

[PennyT]

I will hazard a guess that most of the top Nursery Finals dogs are also running in Open. A great example is Dorrance Eikamp's Rex, the one Hubert Bailey bought, who was Nursery Reserve and Open winner the same year. One from this past year's Finals is Patrick Shannahan running Riggs who was Nursery Reserve and also an Open finalist.

 

If I could figure out how to rush a dog, I would be tempted, so far none of the dogs I have trained have let me rush them. They are either ready to run Nursery or they aren't.

 

Nursery is fun, no doubt about it, and my preference is Nursery and Open or Open Ranch, not Nursery and Pro-Novice. The reason is that Pro-Novice usually only has one drive leg and can teach young dogs to head after the drive panel. I can train in enough bad habits on my own without that. Also if PN is run before Nursery and has a shorter outrun, the dog isn't learning to look far enough up the field.

 

Penny

[rac]

I don't know Julie. I really don't think anybody could easily find out. I know that I didn't in '99. Sally had a litter earlier that summer, and we didn't have time for anything extra. Besides I had already made the decision to move her up after the trial. I did the same with the dog I ran in '04. We didn't have any luck in Sturgis, but I had previously decided to teach the other skills in the fall just like before. I don't think Haley Howard had moved Diona up to Open until after the '01 Finals, so there's another one.

 

Lots of people do move their dogs up though, and I'm not saying that it's wrong. It's just something that I don't do (or haven't done yet). Somtimes things like shedding get taught early on, and sometimes those things get put on the back burner in favor of focusing on something else. Nothing is really hard and fast. The dogs mostly learn at their pace, not mine. Some of these decisions are based on the individual dog's perceived response to training and how I might feel about getting the dog into new territory at that particular time. A decision I'll admit that is purely subjective, but then so is the decision to go the other way.

On one end of this conversation we're talking about whether or not getting a 3 year old dog to run a Nursery course is too much pressure and too much to ask. On this end we're talking about taking that same dog out on the Open field. I think it all should be decided case by case, and as long as everyone (including the dog) is having fun, go for it. I'm sure we've all heard the old adage though, about the dog being ready for trial when it has as many years as it has legs/feet. Usually that number is 4.

 

As an aside, I remember one dog that ran VERY well in both the Nursery Finals and the Open Finals in the same year (and I don't think this happens very often). It was a little bitch (I think) that Bud Budreau ran in '01. The dog ran in the Nursery and placed high. Then she came back and made the cuts to run on Sunday in the double-lift in the Open Finals. They got a nice place there too. What a nice little dog. I only saw her at that one trial, and I can't recall her name now. I was impressed though.

 

 

Ray

[Pipedream Farm]

Swael.

 

Mark

[tucknjill]

Mark you shameless thing... Would you hurry up with my pup please?

[Pipedream Farm]

The oven in not pre-heated yet.

 

Mark

[Joan]

Originally posted by Pipedream Farm:

The oven in not pre-heated yet.

 

Mark

Dhu is preheated. Want another "F"red, Sam?

[Jennifer Glen]

Funny (Ok I find it funny now, it wasn't so funny in 2001) the talk about open helping the nursery dogs. I ran my Bob dog in his first open before the 2001 nursery finals for that very reason, so he'd be ready for the nursery finals. He WON his first open and I suspect he was the only nursery dog at that finals that had already won an open trial. I thought that nursery finals was mine. The earth was very painful when I crashed back into it at the finals. Bob never found sheep either day. The moral of the story? Maybe open helps a nursery dog, maybe not. Perhaps just training might do you better.

Jenny Glen

PS I still had fun getting to the nursery finals and I will do it again. The dog didn't feel any pressure I promise you. The pressure was all mine in my swelled head- well it was swelled until after my first finals run!

[Pipedream Farm]

Originally posted by tucknjill:

Mark you shameless thing... Would you hurry up with my pup please?

Wouldn't you rather I stall things a bit (if I really could) so the pups have "a good birthday"?

 

Mark

[tucknjill]

After today Joan, yes I would LOVE another Fred!!! Jenny, tell Scott the checkup really REALLY helped. I took him to Tommy's today and he was a very very good boy!

 

Yeah I guess we can wait on a good birthday.... As you know, I can be patient...very very patient... uh huh, yeah that is me all over.

[Amelia Smith]

dennis gellings' jan was reserve at meeker the year she was reserve nursery champ. tommy wilson's sly was top 5 at meeker and was qualified for open and nursery at the finals. my own dog kit won his first open trial at 25 months of age in March of 05, placed at another couple opens and was qualified for the nursery and open finals. seems to me some dogs start earlier than others. probably even some lines as 2 dogs mentioned here have some common ancestory. i sold a young dog recently that was not showing enough talent by a year old for my taste. i would not push him into open or even nursery, but i wouldn't keep him either. that's personal preference. it also seems to me however that if a nursery dog is capable of being a viable nursery finalist they are likely good enough for open at some point in their nursery year(s). i train my dogs for work and for trialiing and i let them tell me how fast they want to progress and i sell the ones that don't suit my taste.