Nursery - Why Do It?

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I've got a youngster this year and it looks like she'd have no problem doing nursery this season, if I put the time and effort into it.

 

I did this before and ended up with a dog that had gotten rushed to finish, when it would have been better to let him mature into his talent more slowly. It showed later in a slight lack of confidence on the drive, for instance. And it was all for nothing since that was the year the Finals were right after 9-11 and my trainer didn't want to travel.

 

I have lots of reasons not to do it, therefore (not least being the money and time). What possible benefit would acrue to Ann's training, considering my goal is a useful farm dog and not necessarily a world beater?

[Shoofly]

None.

[juliepoudrier]

I agree with Robin. Unless you hope to sell her on or have some other similar reason for needing that nursery qualification, I'd just save my entry fees and spend it on training.

 

edited to add: If I had a precocious youngster** who wasn't struggling to complete a nursery course and I had an open dog qualified for the finals, then I might consider trying to get the nursery qualification and take the nursery dog along too.

 

**By precocious I mean one that is mature and is naturally doing the work required without any pushing from me.

 

J.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

So why are novices often pushed in this direction by trainers? How many times have I overheard the conversation at trials or clinics - "What's your dog's birthdate? Hmm, good for nursery." When they haven't even asked the person what their goals are or seen the dog in question work . . .

[laurie etc]

Originally posted by Rebecca, Brook Cove Farm:

So why are novices often pushed in this direction by trainers? How many times have I overheard the conversation at trials or clinics - "What's your dog's birthdate? Hmm, good for nursery." When they haven't even asked the person what their goals are or seen the dog in question work . . .

hmm - my trainer/mentor has actually told me he'd "kick my butt" if I got any Nursery ideas with my youngsters...Has seen too many burned out from pressure to qualify for Nursery finals.

[juliepoudrier]

Don't know--maybe because it's relatively easy to get qualified (compared, say, to open) and there's some sort of "glory" associated with that (because a person can say they have a nursery-qualified dog)?

 

J.

[Shoofly]

Originally posted by Rebecca, Brook Cove Farm:

So why are novices often pushed in this direction by trainers? How many times have I overheard the conversation at trials or clinics - "What's your dog's birthdate? Hmm, good for nursery." When they haven't even asked the person what their goals are or seen the dog in question work . . .

No offense, but how many times *have* you heard a decent trainer push a novice to train and run a Nursery dog?

 

Commenting on a good birthdate isn't exactly telling someone to get busy and train the dog.

[juliepoudrier]

Rebecca,

Maybe we should address your question more generally. Instead of asking why it would make sense for *your* dog, maybe folks would like to share their reasons as to why they run *any* dog in nursery. I would love to hear how/when people decide that they have a good nursery prospect and then how/when they decide whether or not to actually run that prospect in nursery. After doing it with Twist, I've said I wouldn't do it again because I do believe the risk of burn out is too great (especially when the nursery dog is in the hands of a novice handler), but I'd be intersted to hear others' opinions on this.

 

I suspect that with some it's more a matter of what I posted earlier--if they're taking an open dog (or two) to the finals and have a youngster that can do the nursery, then why not. But are there any other reasons for running in nursery?

 

J.

[Eileen Stein]

>

 

No, but it reflects a presumption that the owner will be running the dog in nursery.

 

>

 

I think you're dead on target, Julie.

 

But I also think there's some benefit to participating in the nursery program, as opposed to trying to get your dog qualified. With the right dog and the right mindset (i.e., not pushing too fast in an effort to qualify), nursery gives the dog a second run at any trial you attend and a chance to stretch a bit. I look at the dogs who run nursery at the end of the year, and compare that with how they looked at the beginning of the year, and they've often progressed much more than their apparently-equally-talented age-mates who didn't run in nursery. Of course, that's a minus rather than a plus if they were pushed past what they were ready for to get to that level, or made "too nice" at the expense of developing their feel for the sheep, but with the right attitude on the handler's part it doesn't have to be that way.

[cgt]

I got one of my dogs qualified last year.

He was up to the difficulty level of the courses, more or less.

I wasn't sure how fast he would mature by September, but there was a chance he might be ready. And I wanted to get extra runs at trials with him for mileage and experience. So what the heck.

 

I couldn't go to the Finals, but in the end I don't think I would have run him anyway. Even though he was good enough to qualify, by September it was clear to me he wasn't really mentally ready for all that. I didn't want to put extreme training pressure on him and destroy his confidence by asking too much too soon.

 

But I don't regret giving it a try.

 

charlie torre

[Shoofly]

I agree with what Eileen says but (you knew that was coming -- most of the time (not all), at least around here, most of the Nursery dogs are being run by more experienced trainers and handlers, so that might have something to do with those dogs coming along faster too.

 

There's no good reason to push a dog into Nursery if it's not ready or able. But if you have a dog that's capable, and you're capable of not pushing the dog along too fast yourself, it's fun to run. The only reason to do Nursery is because *you* enjoy it. Well, unless you're in the business of training and selling dogs, and then there are other reasons as well.

[juliepoudrier]

Charlie & Eileen,

That's sort of what I did with Twist. I qualified her for the 2004 finals and ran her that year in both P/N (our shorter course) and nursery (our ranch course). The result was that at the end of that year she had progressed to the point where I felt I could move her from P/N to open, skipping ranch altogether. I didn't take her to the finals that year partly because it was too darn far and partly because I felt she was too young and I was too inexperienced (not a great combination). But running her that second year in nursery I think did stretch her (and there was no pressure to win, win, win) and me, and prepared us well for the move to open. And I think that's what Eileen is saying when she means that participating can be good. The extra runs at trials are the best part of nursery as far as I'm concerned. (Since the only other time I really wanted to have extra runs on a field I was forced to move a dog from ranch to open to do so! )

 

The only reason to do Nursery is because *you* enjoy it.

I think Robin makes a very good point above.

 

J.

[NancyO]

Well, I actually enjoy running Nursery. For me it is a no pressure class to run a dog in, but many many people don't see it that way.

 

Another reason to run nursery for me is to see if the dog is ready to move to ranch or not. Most trials are too full to run N/c, so I have used the nursery class to see if the dog is ready to move to ranch or not.

 

I took my nursery dog to the finals this year, and yes it made sense because I was running a dog in Open also, running 2 dogs made the trip worthwhile. But, I also had another nursery prospect, whom I did not agressively pursue qualifying in nursery, as I knew it was above her ability.

 

Nancy O

[Deb Mickey]

I'm not at all knowledgeable about the nursery program, so please be patient with me.

 

One thing I often wonder about when I watch the nursery class is why qualifying is based on placement rather than score. I've often seen not-so-good runs end up placing just because of the level of competition that?s there that day (not being judgmental here - I'm impressed these youngsters are even out there!).

 

It would seem that if a dog had to score say 80% of the total to qualify it would be a better gauge of the dog's abilities.

 

Am I off base?

[juliepoudrier]

Deb,

You make a good point, but the problem I see with choosing a score for qualifying is that it's not so much about level of competition as it is about the sheep/trial conditions. Look at the scores for the first day in open for Sam's trial for example. The winning score was a 79, but that doesn't mean the level of competition wasn't high (it was), but rather that the sheep/course were difficult. And although I know that your 80% was just arbitrary, I think that at some trials it might be very easy to achieve a preset minimum score, at others it might be nearly impossible to do so, and in neither case might the placing reflect the level of competition. Does that make sense?

 

J.

[Belleview]

I'm going throw out a bit different view. Personally, I question that a standard pro-novice trial course doesn't become more of a stress producer on young dog than a normal ranch/nursery course.

 

I would much prefer to start my young dogs in ranch/nursery than pro-novice. I believe that most PN courses are simply too small to effectuate any good "flow" or good training experience for a young dog. Ideally, these novice classes *are* supposed to be "training" classes, and not an end unto themselves, right?

 

I cringe watching many handlers, both new & experience, screaming and overhandling young dogs in PN. Many times the outruns are so short that a worried top is almost a given--since the sheep effectively watch the dog approach from the time it leaves the post, and most young dog outruns are far from perfect. There is litte time or distance to effectuate a re-directed outrun. The top frequently is made more difficult by the fact that the set out team usually has to work alot harder to keep the sheep in place and in turn, the "interference" (altho perhaps well-intentioned) of even the best set out is always a question.

 

Likewise, there is little time or distance to make fetch panels, so the yelling and overcommanding increases, little time to settle sheep on the fetch, and quite usually, a woefully short drive. Any little overflank or glitch can result in a missed panel as there simply isn't time or space to thoughtfully fix anything...which progressively increases handler frustration and demands on the dog. In sum, there is very little opportunity to get into a good flow with your young dog and create a positive trialing/training experience.

 

Our dogs don't know the name of the class they're entered in. The hang ups are all on the two-legged side. Ideally, the dog should be exposed to and be competent to manage the all the requirements of whatever trial course they run long before they go to the post--- which requires the handler to do more quality training and work to expose their dog to new fields/sheep outside a trial context. With the proper mindset, an extra nursery run is just another opportunity for more mileage on the trial field. Frequently, it's when the two legged partner believes that a ribbon in a hellishly handled PN course trumps a well-worked through ranch, nursery or open course which may not be a ribbon earner that the young dog suffers.

 

For what it's worth.

[cgt]

Small comment, Lori - you know this, I'm sure - it's just for information purposes.

 

PN courses vary quite a bit across the country. In the west it is not uncommon at a trial to have Novice, Pro-Novice and Open classes only. And PN can have a 300-400 yard outrun with range sheep and a big drive and cross-drive. (So, this is probably more like Ranch or Open Ranch in other locales, I guess.)

 

(No shed of course in PN. And as long as I'm here spouting off, why is there no shed? I think shedding can be easier on a young dog than a humongous cross drive. )

 

charlie torre

[Belleview]

Good point! I was referring to the "eastern" PN course, which is normally a short outrun, fetch, one short drive leg & pen.

[Jennifer Glen]

GASP! Not do nursery? I think I like it beter than open. I know I'm not going to win it. I do it for fun. I love it. All the dogs are the same age. Even playing field. When my dog, early in the year, runs straight up the field and busts the sheep, you can be sure he won't be the only one! There is no rush if you can't get your dog ready no big deal. Just do it for fun if you are ready. My first dog ran nursery and that is when I decided I liked it. I missed out by 6 weeks on my second dog but Mr. Lad will get to do it. Don't put any pressure on you or your dog and you will enjoy it more.

Jenny Glen

[Pipedream Farm]

So far I've only run one dog in the nursery program, but wouldn't hesitate to do it again. As others have said, it's really all about what you make of it in terms of putting too much pressure on the dog. For me, it was an opportunity to lengthen both the drive and outrun distance which I'm limited by at home (we only have a p/n distance outrun). My goal was to end up with a good open dog, not just a nursery dog. I simply looked at it as a training experience. I also did what I thought was appropriate for my dog and didn't push her unreasonably. In fact, after a season in nursery, I didn't automatically move her into open. She was still a bit too "wahoo" and needed to grow up a bit mentally. I wanted her to be more consistent from day to day at trials. I didn't expect her to win or even place both days of a two day trial, but I wanted to see some maturity and consistency in how she worked the sheep. With that as a goal, she ran in ranch for another year after running nursery. I'm not suggesting that's what everyone should do, but rather do what you think is in the best interest of you and the dog. If you don't think you could run nursery without putting that kind of pressure on you or the dog, nursery is not for you.

Renee

[Deb Mickey]

Lori - You bring up a good point about PN here in the northeast. I know that Annie looks at me like "What?!?! We're done?" when I call her off the field. It does go by too fast. When I ran in PN last Feb. in Florida they had a short cross drive which made the course more challenging and enjoyable.

 

Thanks, Julie, for your thoughts on score vs. placement. I hadn't thought of it that way - does makes sense.

[cgt]

Good points!

 

I recall being given advice from a person whom I respect a lot - he said if I'm going to go for the Nursery Finals with my qualified dog I'd probably better move him to Open beforehand, just for getting some of the necessary experience. My dog wasn't quite ready for THAT, and this was a big factor in my not pursuing it. In fact, I still have not moved him to Open; he needs a lot more confidence first.

 

charlie

[Pipedream Farm]

Originally posted by Shoofly:

There's no good reason to push a dog into Nursery if it's not ready or able. But if you have a dog that's capable, and you're capable of not pushing the dog along too fast yourself, it's fun to run. The only reason to do Nursery is because *you* enjoy it.

I would add one more reason, an additional opportunity to run on different sheep and on a different field for the same travel time/expense.

 

Mark

[juliepoudrier]

Lori,

You make a good point about the eastern P/N. In fact, I remember when I first got a dog into (eastern) ranch, how thrilled I was to have the time (and space) to fix things gone wrong (or at least less than stellar)....

 

I know for the next young dog I have that I'm running in P/N I will be selective about where I run it just for some of the reasons Lori mentions (and because some of the small fields used for the P/N class can have a lot more pressure for a youngster--because of field size and the various draws compared to a large open course field--even though I'm sure the trial host doesn't intend it that way).

 

J.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Trainers,

I think the nursery program is problematic, so much so that in 19 years of the Highland Trial I only held nursery once when I split the trial with another host who didn't feel as I did.

 

In inexperienced, determined hands it has ruined dogs. It has ruined dogs in very experienced hands who feel that any young dog that can't stand trial/training pressure should drop by the wayside.

 

Please remember that though our dogs were selected by trials they weren't bred for trials, they were bred for everyday work and almost any two year old sheepdog can do most farm work - excepting, perhaps, lambing. Such work relaxes them and it teaches them. Work is much, much easier on an immature dog (which a 2 year old is) than training to compete in nursery.

 

On the other hand, I've seen plenty of two year olds still doing short outruns and more-or-less drives who would have trained more seriously if their handler was facing nursery competition. It is very easy to miss the sheepdog's greatest learning "window-of-opportunity" i.e. from 1 - 2 1/2 years.

Are dogs that miss that opportunity often ruined? No, but they may be stunted.

 

I like to push a young dog as hard as it can stand, relieved by much chore work. I like to trial it but (a) if you can't qualify a nursery dog you can't cast a shadow in the sun and ( it don't matter if you do. Similarly, I don't run a dog more than a time or two in pro-novice or ranch. After two trials what can they learn?

 

I've come to believe that the five minutes spent on a pronovice course should be, for the same travel cost become twenty minutes in the evening and another twenty minutes in the morning on a friend's strange field and unfamiliar sheep.

Donald McCaig