New Hill dogs??

[sea4th]

Within the last couple of weeks I joined an all-breed herding list because someone that has one of my dogs will be trialing her in all-breed trials. I joined with the intention of lurking just to get an idea of the mindset. Geez!

 

A woman with bearded collies said she read of someone to trialed border collies for 25 yrs. and now has working beardies because ---and maybe I should go back & reread ---- the beardies are more practical dogs. In fact, according to this woman, beardies are the only dogs that are sent to the hill these days to bring in sheep, because with their style of working, i.e., bouncing & barking, the effect of the flowing coat, bouncing in the air, along with the barking is enough of a disturbance to the sheep to get them moving, something border collies are unable to do---of course, she's paraphrasing the man who trialed border collies for 25 yrs.

 

This is the kind of logic that AKC uses for it's conformation standards---to explain their logic for standardizing physical appearances. I'm sure it's her explanation why her breed now have coats like afghan hounds.---but it's not my intention to start another AKC breed standards.

 

I also realize that these are hobby herders, who might have small flocks of their own---they dabble and can afford to come to frivolous, ridiculous conclusions.

 

But is there an element of truth in what this woman claims? Personally, I just don't see it happening, a working shepherd, with a dog that cannot do it all, a working shepherd that prefers a dog barking like an idiot and a high maintenance coat.

Just don't see it. I just don't.

 

Vicki---who is trying to see it as a learning experience.

[Smokjbc]

Hi,

 

I've been following that thread too- even responded to it a few times but strangely my posts don't seem to make it anywhere- its either a computer glitch or their own "breed prejudice." The list is VERY enlightening as to how herding is perceived by all-breed/AKC persons (in general). I do know people who have seen very nice working Beardies.. I have never seen any- however I understand there are still working strains, esp. in the UK that are useful. I believe they are one of the closer relatives to our dogs.

 

As far as Bark & Bounce go- that would be fine to get things moving.. although if you have cows or mother ewes w/ lambs- I think a bark would be a tremendous handicap (in the case of cattle, it could be a deadly handicap on mother cows). My question is that once the bouncy happy dog gets 100 sheep moving, where does he go with them? If there is no balance and some degree of control- bouncy and barking will just result in unsettled stock. I can see how if someone only was exposed to certain types of Border Collies- for example a very sticky, slow dog might not be your best bet for working a big flock- may see a Beardie as more practical simply because when compared with certain types of Border Collies- they DO something as opposed to "just eyeing". Now, we know there are almost as many types of working styles in Border Collies as there are herding breeds and a Border Collie with power will be able to move anything silently and much more effectively than your bouncer/barker. Not to mention that your bouncer/barker is wasting alot of energy and will need more stamina than a well trained, sensible Border Collie. One of my students, she has German Shepherds, may go see this gentlemen (Peter Wood) in Phoenix in Nov- maybe she'll have some interesting things to share. I'd be willing to bet that if he uses Beardies in practical situations, he doesn't have a bunch of yappers either.

 

One thing I do see on Herd-L, again and again, are excuses. If the dog doesn't get its blah blah blah, its ALWAYS because the judge doesn't like that breed. Or if the dog runs sheep into fences, its because the sheep have never seen that breed. I test different breeds on my sheep, the only dogs that get them crawling the walls are out of control dogs. I've never had my sheep hit a fence simply because the dog walked into the pen- but apparently it happens in AKC trials all the time. In the beginning of the thread, they were complaining about a judge calling of a Beardie, presumably for barking. First of all, if you want to have a judge at your trials- you will get human opinion, not a flawless critical eye. Secondly, after it seems like a open & shut case of "breed prejudice" it slowly comes out that the Beardie wasn't do so hot before being called off- that it was losing at least one sheep more than once and one can guess that the dog may have been too pushy. The judge may have called the dog off for being a Beardie, but I think its more likely the dog was called off because the run was not progressing and one of the sheep was being stressed. It may have had nothing to do with the bark- but barking at a panicked, splitting off sheep probably isn't a good thing in the first place. What really disturbed me is that this judge probably made a good call in favor of the sheep (as should always be first priority) and now many people on HERD-L are sure that it was breed predudice, they'll never show under that judge, etc, etc.. with no concern that maybe there are two sides to the story.

[sea4th]

Another comment made was that Peter Wood claimed beardies are more game, but no details given---of course, he did not directly post on that board.

 

Also, my impression is that the effective, i.e., working beardies do not have afghan hound coats & are more than likely border collie crosses, as in once in a blue moon a border collie pup cropping up in a litter with more hair on it's face, a throw back to a beardie ancestor. So maybe it was these that were called beardies. The show enthusiasts took it many steps further, emphasizing the coat & calling it the same. I don't know. Just speculation on my part.

 

I left the AKC venue when their herding programs became popular---but I am well acquainted with excuses. The excuse makers have been around for years. It's amazing the threads of logic these excuses follow. It's also very convenient to find someone "in the know", and use their comments to support your own beliefs. I never heard of Peter Wood---but that doesn't really mean anything anyway. But I can see one persons comments being taken out of context and manipulated to further another's cause, and offered as conclusive proof, which is what these people apparently tend to do----but a beardie running Meeker? Taking the place of a border collie---for a person whose livelihood depends of his livestock and therefore an effective dog? I don't see it.

 

Vicki

[Smokjbc]

Hi,

 

Another point to be made, not from a trial dog view point but a "practical" view point- is the time and effort going into training. I have seen "alternative" herding breeds that were fairly useful, that could work on a farm at least on sheep and gather, fetch, pen..etc to a degree of usefulness- usually as long as the stock was reasonable and not difficult. Almost every one of those individual dogs were hobby herders- and took literally months to years to get to where a young, barely started Border Collie can be in weeks. At the place I keep sheep is a nice lady with a ACD. To be fair, ACDs are not meant to work dog broke sheep (or sheep at all LOL) in a trial setting. For an ACD, he's not bad... but she's been working him like mad to get him to that point. She practices ALL the time (she's much more dedicated than I am.) She carries a big weapon and thats what it takes to keep him steady and respectful of stock. When he's good, its impressive, but every time I"ve seen him work at least once things get out of control. She travels several hours for lessons and is in marathon shape from running after this dog. I'd consider him one of the better trained ACDs I've seen (I wasn't sure they COULD be trained ), but still my 10 month pup who has worked sheep once or twice a week for 5 months (I promise to do better!) is about twice as well "trained" and useful as this same dog thats been training for over a year, several times a week (she works him a LONG time too !)

 

So back to my point... if I was a "practical" farmer, the dog I had to go to work with NOW better be something easy to teach the basics too. A farmer doesn't have an hour a day to train his/her dogs- they learn on the job quick or forget it.

[cgt]

I don't know about hill sheep. And who is Peter Wood?

 

Most range sheep I have encountered out here in the west (some have even ended up in my little hobby pasture) would not be too happy with the bark and bounce. Most likely, the sheep would be in the next county before the dog had a chance to shake its pretty coat. Another possibility is the dog will end up getting chased into the next county.

 

charlie torre

[Smokjbc]

Good point Charlie LOL...I can see it now.

 

I think alot of these people need to get out of the arena and see what "practical work" really is. Without fences on tough stock would probably be a real eye opener.

[juliepoudrier]

Hey y'all,

I too have been unable to post to Herders-L lately. I even e-mailed the admin folks but never got an answer. Apparently other folks are having the same problem as it seems some regular posters there are forwarding mail for other people now too.

 

On the question of beardies, it was my impression that most working beardies look more like wire-haired border collies with hairy faces--not those long flowing coats that remind me so much of a downsized Old English Sheepdog.... The lady also said that the brush, etc. was very tall "on the hill" and so the sheep couldn't see a low-working border collie to react to it, whereas they could see that bouncing barking beardie. All I wondered was how the beardie made it through all that brush without getting it's super-long coat hung up on everything and therefore ruined!

 

J.

[workindogs]

I am really not an expert on working Beardies, but I know people in the UK who have them and use them.

 

My understanding is that the working Bearded Collie is not anything like the KC Bearded Collie (no surprise there).

 

The imported working Beardie that I have seen here in the US is actually a hybrid Border Collie Beardie cross...a Border Beardie. The wire coat is dominant, so althought the dog was 7/8 Border Collie, it had a wire Beardie coat. Of course, the dog worked much like a border collie. This particular dog had tremendous stamina and drive, far exceeding what I'd seen in other dogs...however this may be particular to the specific dog.

 

If my memory serves, Turnbull's Blue is the only Bearded Collie to earn an ISDS ROM. I believe that he too was a border beardie cross.

 

If someone has more information on this, please chip in.

 

Elizabeth

[Smokjbc]

Hi,

 

Another interesting aspect to the Beardie thing is that some breeders are trying to "bring back" the working beardie by crossing with Border Collies. The KC people HATE this... I have had long email exchanges with certain people on the list about this endeavor. Personally, if the dogs are better working dogs and still retain some of the pluses of being Beardies (whatever that may be), I would think it would be a good thing. I think alot of the KC herding breeds could benefit from some outcrossing to bring back a little better consistency in ability. But of course, they would no longer "be" that breed then, at least not to the KC people. Never mind that is how breeds were developed in the first place, and improved- now its gotta be a strict lineage- even if the dogs no longer are functional outside of some exceptional individuals.

[sea4th]

but I know people in the UK who have them and use them.

Do these people in the UK who use beardies, do so in addition to border collies or instead of border collies? Are they expected to do the same job? I can't imagine a working shepherd having the luxury of dogs that have specialized talents. I can't imagine feeding something that can't do it all, if your livelihood depended on it. They claim it's the beardie that has the guts to back down a bull, border collies tend not to have the guts to do that sort of thing, & that scenario of barking and flouncing it's coat to get sheep moving being a more effective style of working than a border collie? And what's "game" in this case? A border collie that isn't "game" would soon be out of a job, no?

 

It was mentioned on the list I originally referred to, that the old shepherds fondly recall beardies, and I have a feeling that the poster had in mind what she trots around the show ring, not the scruffy dogs that actually work for a living.

 

I guess I'm just trying to get a feel for how much of it is hype. A lot of the hype though, is really slanted against the border collie---jealousy perhaps?

 

Had to vent.

 

Vicki

[G_Davis]

I haven't seen the thread, so maybe I shouldn't comment -- and I have absolutely nothing against Beardies. But I would have to see it to believe it, that a bouncing barking beardie can move stock that a Border Collie can't. Of course, when I say Border Collie, I mean a working dog with some power, takin' care of business.

 

Then again, if all you need to do is scare them into moving, I suppose lots of things could do that.

[Bill Fosher]

Bearded collies are not the only dogs being sent to the hills these days, unless this is a change that has taken place since last November.

 

While I was in Scotland, I saw quite a few Border collies in use, but not one bearded collie. I didn't see a hill gather, so perhaps I missed them -- not!

 

Actually, I saw stock being moved with ATVs a lot more often than I saw any kind of dog. It wasn't all that pretty, either.

[nancy]

Can't help myself. That description of how bearded collies work just gets me laughing. Anyone remember Pepe Le Peau? I can even hear the "boing, boing"!