sea4th Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 Shawna, A good number of pages are devoted to the Belayev experiment in Coppinger & Coppinger's book, Dogs. Interesting reading. Vicki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sea4th Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 Regarding changes in behavior---show dogs must "show" themselves, a "look at me" type of attitude, if you will. In the show ring, all other things being equal, the more retiring dog will be passed over. So, in addition to physical physical appearance, the bold pup will be chosen over the not-so-bold pup for a career in the show ring, and will go on to pass those behavioral traits on to offspring. So while manipulating the appearance may result in behavioral changes as well, for show dogs, it is the "up" pup, that is preferred as the show prospect. So if there are iffy temperaments showing up in show Border Collies, it's probably the result of these breeding practices. I think many members of BCSA are giving it their best shot, but they're up against a mentality that really cannot, nor does it want to, look beyond it's breed standards. It's way to profitable. Vicki Vicki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted January 21, 2003 Report Share Posted January 21, 2003 Well we aren't just talking temperament here, we are talking selection for highly complicated behavior. It has to be very fragile, anything but careful positive selection for herding will likely result in loss of these characteristics, dont you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PennyT Posted January 26, 2003 Report Share Posted January 26, 2003 Here's a great quote from the standard: "Dogs must be presented in hard working condition." Now, how do you suppose dogs get into "hard working condition," if they don't work? I wonder is anyone showing dogs pays attention to that or to any of the verbiage about working. Penny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fosher Posted January 26, 2003 Report Share Posted January 26, 2003 I've probably told this story before. I had Tweed in for an eye exam at a "big city" (Springfield, Mass.) animal hospital. He was literally right out of the field -- complete with spatters of sheep manure on his sides and legs. I apologized to the technician for how dirty he was, and he grumbled something. I explained that he was a working dog, that I was a shepherd, and that we had been working up until it was time to come down there for his exam. He was a bit more interested, and commented on "how little" Tweed weighed (40 lbs.) and how thin he seemed. When the vet came in to conduct the exam, she was thrilled to see him. She lavished attention on him, which he sucked up like a sponge. She called several techs into the exam room and had them feel his sides, back, hips, leg muscles, and chest, had them listen to his heart, and asked them for their appraisal. I was sure that some of them thought he was emaciated from to looks of concern on their faces, and since this hospital was run by the Mass SPCA, I half expected my dog would be seized. Fortunately, the vet told them that this was what a working dog feels like, and that more dogs should be in this kind of shape. These were "trained professionals" -- called "nurses" in this hospital -- who should have known the difference between an emaciated dog and a dog in prime physical condition. But the general public is so accustomed to fat dogs that any time they can feel a rib, they think the dog is one breath away from collapsing from hunger. The point is that I don't think most show ring judges would know hard working condition if they saw it. And if they did see it, they would probably think the dog was underfed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sea4th Posted January 26, 2003 Report Share Posted January 26, 2003 How do you get dogs in hard working condition, if they don't work? Why, treadmills, of course. You honestly don't expect some of the top conformation BC's to go out into the field and possibly hurt themselves, do you?----thereby bringing a show career to an end? I don't think some of these show dogs are even allowed to be dogs, not when there is a show career at stake, not when there are 5 or 6 co-owners on a dog, to whom the dog is more of an investment. Years ago, I remember seeing the #1 Borzoi in the country being shown in the group ring. Huge red & white male, regal bearing, his chest furnishings so long it nearly touched the ground & when he trotted, he looked like he floated. Come to find out, that this dog, who lived in So. Cal., rarely left an air-conditioned environment, and wore a vest & had the rest of his furnishings wrapped, to protect them & keep them looking the way they did. Buzz off all the furnishing, you just have another dog, who deserves to live the life of a dog. Other long coated breeds are also kept wrapped if they're lot is that of a show dog. How many of these poofy, squat, Oz BC's you see in the Westminster dog show, for example, does anyone honestly think is allowed to live a normal life, not just that of a BC, but of a dog. Anyone ever walk through a grooming area of a dog show? Stay away if you have asthma. The chalk dust will stifle you! Again, I don't blame the dog, but dang the idiots at the other end of the leash. Vicki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PennyT Posted January 27, 2003 Report Share Posted January 27, 2003 Vets don't see fit dogs very often. It can be a problem because the low heart rates and solid muscles can give an appearance of health to someone who doesn't see dogs like that. When I suspected a problem with one of my dogs whose endurance was down, the vet thought it was like expecting "Arnold Schwartzneger to run as fast as an Olympic long distance runner." In another instance, when a friend of mine brought a dog in to be neutered, the vet called her and said that the dog's muscles were too hard and either there was something wrong with him and they shouldn't operate or he was in the best shape they had ever seen. I have wanted to get a treadmill for dogs recuperating from surgery and so on. I wonder if a treadmill could ever get a dog in the same kind of shape that actual running on the job does. I wonder because I don't know anyone who lets working dogs get as fat as show dogs are kept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted January 27, 2003 Report Share Posted January 27, 2003 Actually, I have been having to give alot of thought to this conditioning thing. I am working my Lassie collie in agility and while she is a very good example of this breed, she is not built to perform in the field. During her conditioning phase I got all sorts of flak from show folks about how thin she was. It took about 18 months of hard work, running with the BC's and several 'exercises' I developed to help her develop strong back muscles. But the biggest help was a set of conditioning jumps. Agility would have been sooo much easier with the BC's Just had her into the vet and the vet was very impressed with her condition (and small size) which I understand is the middle of the 'standard' just goes to show how standards usually aren't followed even by the faithful. And few vets, especially city vets ever see a dog in good athletic condition. When I took one of my smooths into the vet (a new vet) the techs commented on how thin. The vet (picked him up (for an X ray) and commented how this dog was definitely a 'working' dog. I just tell folks that I wouldn't expect a long distance runer to carry around alot of extra fat and most seem to comprehend that. I also point out muscling which usually impresses them. Pam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted January 27, 2003 Report Share Posted January 27, 2003 This discussion reminds me of when I took Boy to an internal medicine specialist for abdominal ultrasound last summer. The vet listened to his heart and was immediately concerned over his slow heart rate (his heart was not the reason he went to see her). Took him outside and had her technician run him around so she could get a rate after exercise. Then she came back and informed me that he was fine because his rate increased on exercise but as soon as he stopped running around it dropped quickly back to that slow resting rate. Well, duh, isn't that what it means to be physically fit (human and animal alike)? Still, she labelled it as an arythmia on his chart. I just sort of got a chuckle out of the whole thing.... J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Margaret M Wheeler Posted January 27, 2003 Report Share Posted January 27, 2003 Hey, I see we have a little thread drift happening here. Just a couple of words about treadmills: I have a small Jog-A-Dog that pretty much sits around unused now that I don't show in conformation. If you get one, be sure it has wheels. The motor is very heavy to move. Also, I think you need to be very careful using treadmills for injured dogs, dogs at risk for musculo-skeletal injury and musculo-skeletally immature dogs. The movement is very repepteive and stressful. I liked it best for my terrier Fergus when he was a full-grown but still young stud dog and all full of himself. 15 minutes uphill on the jogger took the edge off (just barely!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diane allen Posted January 28, 2003 Report Share Posted January 28, 2003 While Lucy doesn't work sheep, she does run every minutes ehe's awake. We hike at least an hour a day (harder in winter...maybe 30-45 minutes some days), and she gets lots of agility practice. Her back legs are like rocks! When she was having a limping problem, one vet felt her "bad" leg and didn't find anything wrong. Then he felt her "good" leg and said, "Oh! That one is much tighter!" Not that he thought she was thin, but just hadn't realized what a tight muscle might feel like. Whether his diagnosis was right or wrong, we'll never know. But it impressed me that he would think to feel the good leg for a comparison and note the difference. We also tried an underwater treadmill during her recovery - I think a bit easier on shoulders, but harder on the actual muscles (working against the water). I'm afraid she overdid that, but in smaller doses, might be good for an occasional problem (NOT to get the dog in shape!). diane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawna Posted January 28, 2003 Report Share Posted January 28, 2003 I could see using treadmills for limited exercise during recovery or even for taking the "edge" off as Margaret called it, when you can't get out some days (not a problem for farm dogs), but I can't see that it would would work to exercise all the muscles appropriatly. The tread mill will only work the forward motion muscles, not the twisting, turning muscles. I'm no expert in anatomy, but working with my Aunts quarter horses as a teenager we had to do multiple exercises with them to build up the other muscles for show (not counting all the backing we did for the hind quarters). The tread mill only worked about half of them satisfactorily. I would assume that it would be the same with the dogs. Herding would develope all the muscles evenly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMcNairnTurn Posted January 28, 2003 Report Share Posted January 28, 2003 Originally posted by Bill Fosher:Most of all, I would like her to show me how a quad bike could look up at me at the end of an exhausting day of trailing sheep, loading lambs, worming ewes, or whatever, and thank me for letting it help. Oh dear, Bill...that was all so beautiful you made me cry. I guess I should add that I'm not being facitious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caroline Posted January 28, 2003 Report Share Posted January 28, 2003 Well Bill, This is the third time you have brought tears to my eyes. When are you going to publish a book of your thoughts about the Working Border Collie? In your spare time , of course ! Caroline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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