juliepoudrier Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 A friend and I were discussing the relative merits of front dewclaws and wether they sould be removed. One of us is inclined to do so and the other is not. So we thought we'd seek the collective wisdom of this group. Do you consider the front dewclaw to be a uesful appendage? If so, why? If not, why not? Does anyone have any real veterinary type references to support one view or the other? Thanks! J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katelynn & Gang Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 I think they are very useful. Maybe not to us but to the dog. They use them to clean their eyes which is a good thing. Katelynn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howdyjabo Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 Since we are probably talking about a working dog. Cut them off. One less worry for you and the dog.Its got to be really painful when the get hung-- which they will.And its one less thing to have to fix when they hang it bad. Never seen a dog that missed having them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katelynn & Gang Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 I was talking about the front dewclaws when I said they are useful. We've had hind ones removed off of rescues because they do get hung up. I've never seen hind dewclaws on a Border Collie and my puppies never had them. Katelynn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 I notice that my dogs' front (and only) dewclaws stay well worn down. I assume that means that they are using them for traction (probably when changing directions). Since they appear to be useful, I am not interested in removing them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kerrigan Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 I always have them removed. We had a real problem with our Labs tearing theirs when hunting if they weren't removed, so I just prefer to eliminate a potential problem on very active dogs. I think it just depends on the dog and owner's preference. I think most dogs don't have a problem with it, but I have a friend who's dog tore his several times when herding. BTW - I saw one litter of BC pups who had some pups with double dew claws on the back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muddy bob Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 Our vet refused to remove the fronts off my friend's adult ACD. Although she practices traditional veterinary medicine, she mentioned something about the dewclaw lying on a meridian and felt it could be detrimental to the overall health. It may sound flaky to some, but the owner respected the vet's opinion. The dewclaws have never been problematic to the dog who, by the way, does work cattle regularly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AK dog doc Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 The front dewclaws DO stabilize the foot when changing direction. The dewclaw doesn't normally engage the ground when the dog is standing in a neutral position, or just loping along, but if they turn at speed, the dewclaw engages the ground and stabilizes the foot. (You can actually see this in slow-motion photography with close-ups.) The dewclaw thus prevents a certain amount of toe dislocations which can otherwise occur, especially with abrupt turns at higher speeds. Part of what you need to consider, though, is the conditions which will apply to the foot when the dog is worked. If you're bootying (as in sled dogs), take the dews off or you'll have a mess on your hands. If you're in terrain where normal front dews are likely to be injured, but turning with speed is not a frequent occurance, then the dews may be more trouble than they're worth. I'd never take off my dogs' front dews (especially not on Ali, who very often turns abruptly at very high speeds!), but I personally took off the BF's BC's REAR double dews. OTOH, my dogs are not worked in terrain where the front dews have ever caused a problem, and I very rarely see front dewclaw injuries up here. That may or may not be so elsewhere. (Rear dews are much more likely to get hung up, because they are by definition not normal toes - even in those breeds where the rear dews are part of the breed standard. They may be "normal" for that breed, but not for dogs in general. Most rear dews are not fully attatched and so have no utility in stabilizing the foot, and are also out there sort of flopping in the breeze, hence are more likely to get caught on things.) Sorry I can't be more specific (all dewclaws on or all off) but it IS a bit situational. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valhalla Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 Originally posted by AK dog doc:The dewclaw thus prevents a certain amount of toe dislocations which can otherwise occur, especially with abrupt turns at higher speeds. I didn't know this! Rook had his front dewclaws removed as a wee pup and he did have a bad sesamoid injury on his front foot a few years ago. I have removed the front dewclaws off the two litters of pups I bred, but after reading this thread, I think I might leave them from now on. Thanks for posting this topic, Julie! You were right! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvw Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 I went to an agility seminar once by Christine Zinc (a canine sports specialist)and she advised NOT removing for the same reasons AK Dog Doc said. My BC had them removed as a pup and so far (knock on wood) hasn't had a problem. Jennifer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northof49 Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 All my Border Collies have their dewclaws - we don't remove them, and you can really see when they use them for herding, agility, etc. The only problems that I ever encountered with the front dewclaws was years ado when my ex-husband also used our Border Collies for hunting and they were working in dense brush. We got around that by wrapping their front legs. I also found when I went riding in the woods, because the dogs didn't stick to the old wagon trails, I would wrap their front legs to protect their dewclaws. I know they had done a study on sighthounds and lure coursing about 10 years ago, and the findings showed a much higher rate of injury on those dogs without front dew claws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valhalla Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 AK dog doc, my Bess broke her front dew claw the other day. It is still attached to the skin, but the actual nail "de-gloved" completely off the quick. I cut as much of the nail off as I could, but there is still some nail left attached to the skin. Would you recommend having a vet surgically remove the remainder of the nail or will it just grow back on its own? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rikki's Mom Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 I can't speak about working BCs, but a few years back when we had our cocker x spayed I had her front dewclaws removed out of ignorance and convenience to me (2 less nails to clip). I would never do it again except for a medical reason. Since the front dewclaw is a toe and she was over 6 months old it is considered an amputation. She suffered more from that surgery than the spaying and her recovery time and care was much longer. My understanding is if they are clipped off as a young puppy it's not such a big deal. Please check this out to see if actually true. I place gauze and vet wrap around my BCs front dewclaws/ankles prior to going to the dog park. It seems to help, especially since she takes off any boot I put on her (see "sore feet" thread). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northof49 Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 "My understanding is if they are clipped off as a young puppy it's not such a big deal. Please check this out to see if actually true." I have removed dewclaws on some litters of puppies for friends of mine and it is always done within the first 48 hours of birth. Some of the puppies don't even seem to notice, and others cry a bit when the dewclaws are snipped off, but settle down within a minute or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fooshuman Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 Heheh i was just gonna ask this question! Zag has dew claws on his back feet, was thinking of removing them when he is neutered. Should i remove them earlier? (he is 14 weeks old now) I figured he'd be less concerned with his dew claws after his snip elsewhere. Or should i leave them alone? I have a vet app. on sat was going to discuss it with my vet as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AK dog doc Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 Christine, if the hanging nail is bothering your Bess, do go have it taken care of by the vet. If you were able to clip it back far enough that she isn't troubled by it, then let it be; it should grow out fine, and you can keep after the damaged part with the clippers until a new "whole" (undamaged) nail is present. Usually the quick is NOT injured sufficiently to prevent regrowth of a normal claw, but it may be a little tender for a few days. Also, if enough nail remains to catch on things, that does hurt - imagine if you had fingernail torn into the nailbed, and it kept snagging on things and yanking at the nailbed, and you'll have the general idea. :eek: (Yikes! just the idea sets my teeth on edge.) Fooshuman, as for the rear dews, those ones ARE more likely to cause problems and do not serve any purpose in stabilizing the foot (see my above post), so I would definitely discuss this with your vet. If your puppy is over 5 days old, then I'd go ahead and wait til the neuter, as it's easier for your dog to undergo a single anesthetic, hospitalization and recovery than to do it twice (not to mention it being less expensive for you to do it once rather than twice). If dewclaw removal is done before 5 days of age it's a lot less of a surgery... the bone is tiny and soft (pretty much just cartilaginous, still) and there's a LOT less innervation and circulation, so it is WAY less surgery than amputating a fully-formed dewclaw. After 5 days of age, things are changing rapidly in such a way that it would be difficult and inhumane to do the surgery without a full anesthetic and pain control, which means we generally wait til they're a little older (as in neutering age) before we do the procedure. Personally - and this is just MY personal philosophy of practice, not what the AVMA or AAHA or anyone else advocates, AFAIK - I generally advise those who are considering *front* dewclaw removal in older pups and adults to REconsider. Most do, unless there's a medical reason already or they're planning to use the dog in such a way that a medical reason is likely to occur. (I realize that this is taking money out of my own pocket, but I'm not one for assessing the need for a patient to have surgery based on how healthy my bank account looks. This is known as the "palpate your wallet" school of medicine, and I didn't go to that school.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fooshuman Posted March 15, 2006 Report Share Posted March 15, 2006 Thanks AK Dog Doc. I am grateful for your response. I appreciate you taking the time to answer this for me. I will discuss it with my vet on sat. Although i'm pretty sure he will just mimic what you have just said. Again thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valhalla Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 AK dog doc, the nail is not bothering Bess, so I will just keep an eye on it and make sure it grows back properly. The actual nail that is still present is between the quick and the skin, so there is not a lot of nail to catch on things. Thank you for your response! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AK dog doc Posted March 16, 2006 Report Share Posted March 16, 2006 You betcha! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mona Howard Posted March 17, 2006 Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 One of my dogs came with dewclaws removed. The other two had theirs. The only problem I ever had was a freak accident where my bitch was licking her paws and then washing her face. Somehow she managed to hang one dewclaw in the ring where her tags are attached. She cried like it really hurt. If I hadn't been there I wonder if she would have broken the toe trying to free herself? The claw wasn't long either. My 12 yr. old dog's stick out and look funny now that he's old but don't bother him or get hung up on anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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