Darcy bit again =(

[erikor]

As I alluded to in a prior post, we had some problems with biting and aggression with Darcy (6 month old puppy) a few weeks ago. After teaching the children to be more assertive and redoubling our efforts to communicate to Darcy that teeth on humans was never ok, we made great progress. His previous aggressive times were when we were trying to take things from him. We had a few occasions of growling, teeth bearing, and biting. Since we made these changes, these have all gone away.

But today, my youngest daughter was petting Darcy and he bit her on the nose. I did not see it myself, but I am sure she was leaning over him with her hair in his face and being too smothering as I have told her numerous times not to do. The bite left a red mark. She cried. She recovered quickly, with Darcy licking up her tears. Everyone is fine now.

I can set rules to keep this from happening again, and keep going with our training, but this seems a little out of the ordinary to me. We have an appointment with a behavioralist in a few weeks. Anything else we should do? Is this really bad? Or a common puppy behavior?

[urge to herd]

Don't have kids, but my recommendation is that the kids only pet Darcy when there's an adult actively supervising. You don't say how old your daughter is, if she's not old enough to understand to give pets instead of hugs, she shouldn't be left alone with the pup.

I believe it's a common behavior when something is happening that your 6 month old puppy doesn't like. Your daughter could have accidentally pulled Darcy's fur, or pinched her, or scared her,  or Darcy could just have been done with playing. There's no way to know.

Someone else who's got experience w/puppies and kids playing together will hopefully weigh in.

Ruth & Gibbs

[erikor]

Thank you urge to herd. I am confident she did something he did not like, probably petting too hard and dangling her hair in his face while giving a kiss. I left the room for a few minutes and it happened. I think you are right about not leaving her alone with Darcy. 
 

In my mind this was a provoked bite, and not a severe bite, and Darcy was appropriate both immediately before and immediately after. If the wise people here think this is in the range of normal puppy response I am more than happy to keep training and set stricter rules with the children. On the other hand, other people on the internet ask things like “what are you waiting for? A severe injury?” 
 

I just can’t believe Darcy would hurt any of us in a significant way. He seems to be doing his best to figure it out. But maybe I am being naive. 
 

For what it’s worth, the breeder said they would take him back. That would be a gut wrench for the family. But not as big a gut wrench as a serious injury. 
 

Not feeling too good on either the parenting or the pet raising fronts at the moment. 

[Flora & Molly]

How old are you children?

Children tend to want to hug and kiss dogs, which can be too much for most dogs. I wouldn’t leave my dog alone with any children even though she loves them and even loves hugs and tolerates just about anything children do.

Still, even though she loves them, she does get insecure around them and I keep close watch to make sure everyone is still happy. She is 5 years old and I’ve known her from birth - so I know when she’s at her limit and needs a break. It does depend on the age of the child how close I am. For instance I am always at her side when my niece is around, because my niece is a year and a half. We keep it short and sweet. But when the child is older, say 10, I don’t have to supervise so closely, but wouldn’t leave the room and from a distance would keep my eye on them constantly.

At 6 months your pup still has a lot to learn and is now learning that the only way to stop a child from doing something he doesn’t like is to bite. Which is a shame, he shouldn’t be put in that position. It’s an easy fix though: always always supervise. My dog Molly was very mouthy at that age and we couldn’t pet her without her being over stimulated. We settled for short pets (like 5 seconds), which worked for her. She grew into a dog that loves hugs and pets and fussing  

I was bitten on my cheek by a friend’s dog when I was around eight. Left a red mark but didn’t pierce the skin. It was my fault because she was in her bed and I had hung over her to pet her. I couldn’t see the signs she didn’t like it, but I was taught to leave dogs alone when they were in their bed... I knew that but did it anyway, because the adults in the room had their backs turned and were at the other side of the room. I was so ashamed I didn’t dare to tell anyone and never bothered dogs again like that. Had a good relationship with that dog after that and she hasn’t bitten anyone besides me that one time. This is just to say that even when a child knows better, they can still make mistakes and with a dog that mistake can have a horrible ending when no one is there to stop it (although this time it didn’t).

I am not there to see the dog of course, but it sounds to me like there isn’t a reason to get rid of the dog. Not yet anyway. I would monitor the dog closely and watch for signs whether the dog is comfortable with the children or not. One rule in our house growing up was that the most important thing for the dog was peace and quiet or rest (not sure how to correctly translate the notion from Dutch). Which meant we weren’t allowed to fuss the dog too much or pet the dog constantly, but learned as children that simply being with the dog in the same room was fun already and there are loads of activities to do outside with the dog. Inside is quiet time for the dog. Worked very well for us. 
 

 

 

[erikor]

Thank you Flora and Molly. I agree 100%. Now that the initial panic has subsided I am hopeful that ongoing training of both pup and kiddos will do the trick. I just hope I can keep their treats straight. 

[D'Elle]

I agree completely with what Flora and Molly says. It is up to you not to allow your puppy to be put into a situation where she feels that biting is the only option she has to put an end to something she doesn't like. At 6 months this kind of biting is less an indication of Aggression and more a case of his not knowing better ways to handle a situation. Kind of like a little human child who hits a playmate who takes his toy away until he learns that there are other ways besides hitting to manage the situation. Just a matter of good, patient, and completely consistent training, and making sure that he never feels backed into a corner. You'll do fine with this dog, just hang in there. The shark phase will pass. :-)

[erikor]

Thank you D’Elle. And I agree. This is harder than I anticipated, but I see in Darcy a wonderful dog. (I mean, he IS a wonderful dog, doing his best with these weird upright creatures. At least they have treatos!) 

It is a huge help to have this community to level set expectations, keep it real, and give perspective to these situations. 

[urge to herd]

17 hours ago, erikor said:

I just can’t believe Darcy would hurt any of us in a significant way. He seems to be doing his best to figure it out. But maybe I am being naive. 
 

For what it’s worth, the breeder said they would take him back. That would be a gut wrench for the family. But not as big a gut wrench as a serious injury. 
 

Not feeling too good on either the parenting or the pet raising fronts at the moment. 

Erikor,  I won't sugar coat it ~ you may need to make a painful decision. If your children are not able to follow the rules that you set for them about the dog, then for everyone's safety you need to strongly consider returning Darcy. 

My parents made a decision to put a dog of ours down when I was a kid. Long story short, my brother teased the dog a lot, dog went after my brother during an argument between my brother and my dad, and savaged him. I saw it. My parents had the dog put down. It's painful to remember. 

Not every dog is right for every family. Not every family is right for a dog. The difficult thing is you can't do a test drive with a dog. I'm sorry you're facing this decision. I don't know if there are behaviorists where you live. If there's a veterinary medical school within a hundred miles or so you might contact them. Unfortunately, anyone who wants to call themselves a behaviorist can, there are no legal standards as far as I know.

 I wish you and your family the best.

Ruth & Gibbs

[Pearse]

 "I did not see it myself, but I am sure she was leaning over him with her hair in his face and being too smothering as I have told her numerous times not to do."

What other people have said.

You can't trust kids not to do things with the puppy that they aren't supposed to do when you aren't watching - because they are children.

You can't trust the puppy not to react inappropriately when kids do things they aren't supposed to do when you aren't watching - because it's a puppy.

You are the one in charge and you are the responsible when bad things happen. Sorry that's not meant to be judgmental, just a fact. Don't let the puppy out around the children when you aren't there to supervise. It's not fair to the dog. Going to make dinner? Pup in crate. Just nipping downstairs to put a load of laundry in. Pup in crate. 

You could put the kids in a crate instead but that tends to be more problematic with the authorities. Besides, they learn slower than Border Collies.

The dog will learn as it grows and it will learn faster when you are there to prevent unwanted behavior. The kids will learn too (slower because they are human children), so this isn't forever.

It's like house training a pup. Crate - outside - crate - feed - outside - play - outside - crate. If you do that, the pup is house trained mostly by four to six months and trustworthy in the house by itself by 9-12 months. If you don't you're still getting "accidents" a year later. The same is true with the biting. Pups bite each other. Adult dogs bite pups. So, it's normal behavior. They learn it hurts and they learn to avoid behaviors that get them nipped. If you are there, you can correct the dog and you can make sure that the kids don't engage in behavior likely to get them bitten. If you aren't, you can't. 

A well known handler once told me " with Border Collies, you are always training, for better or worse." It's stuck with me. You need to teach the dog that the kids are off limits. You can only do that when you are there. You need to teach the kids that there are certain things they aren't allowed to do to the dog. You can't do that if you aren't there. So, only solution is no unsupervised kids/pup interactions until both have that figured out. Hard to do? Absolutely. Necessary? Yes.

The pup most likely does not have a behavioral problem. He as a lack-of-adult-supervision problem and your kids have a lack-of-respecting-pup-boundaries problem (not their fault - they are young kids). 

As with most things Border Collie, there isn't a magic solution. It's all down to time, training, and consistency.

 

 

[erikor]

Thanks Pearson’s and Ruth and Gibbs. I am actually very relieved to hear these perspectives. I am perfectly willing to take the blame! I can certainly fix the environment (child behaviors, level of supervision) so we will press on with this delightful pup.

And yes, we have an appointment with a respected, DVM trained behavioralist in three weeks to make sure we are doing all we can for this creature. 

[urge to herd]

2 hours ago, Pearse said:

"A well known handler once told me " with Border Collies, you are always training, for better or worse." It's stuck with me. 

Something I've seen on these boards several times, from people with a LOT of experience w/border collies: "You're ALWAYS training the dog. You may not realize it, and if you're not careful you'll train to the dog to do something you really don't want it to do."

I've soooooo done this. With my first couple border collies particularly. Shoshone, my second, loved it when people laughed at her antics.  I wound up with a couple behaviors I Could Never Train Out.

Ruth and Gibbs

[Journey]

Any bite to a child is one to many. Your breeder offered, take them up on it before it's too late.

[D'Elle]

23 hours ago, urge to herd said:

Erikor,  I won't sugar coat it ~ you may need to make a painful decision. If your children are not able to follow the rules that you set for them about the dog, then for everyone's safety you need to strongly consider returning Darcy. 

My parents made a decision to put a dog of ours down when I was a kid. Long story short, my brother teased the dog a lot, dog went after my brother during an argument between my brother and my dad, and savaged him. I saw it. My parents had the dog put down. It's painful to remember. 

I disagree with this assessment. In the case you describe, Ruth, you state that your brother teased the dog frequently. This in my eyes means the dog was essentially tortured and abused. Maybe not to the point of injury, but teasing is every bit as damaging if it goes too far and too long, which in this case it clearly did. This dog could have been re-trained to be a good dog if he had only had the chance in an appropriate environment instead of being pushed continually to his limit and then killed because he understandably broke and defended himself. This is a very sad story but wouldn't have had to end like that, and shouldn't have.

13 minutes ago, Journey said:

Any bite to a child is one to many. Your breeder offered, take them up on it before it's too late.

I heartily disagree with this as well. This is not the puppy's fault. The pup is very unlikely to be an actual biter. This is the fault of the person who should have been watching and regulating the interactions with the child and the dog, and that person has fully realized and acknowledged that. If the situation is changed by being handled in the right way there will not be a problem with this dog. If this pup is returned to the breeder for "being a biter" it will affect his whole life in a negative way and that is entirely unnecessary. 

Anyone, human or dog or any other creature, no matter how well mannered or trained or socialized or calm or good natured, will break and defend itself if it is pushed too far. If a person or a dog or anything else does that, it doesn't tell you anything about that individual except that it can reach a breaking point. And we all have a breaking point. For children and puppies and other youngsters, that point comes earlier because self control has not yet been taught and established. Doesn't bode poorly for the animal's or the person's future if this is demonstrated.

I wish people would not be so quick to blame and condemn the dog. 

[urge to herd]

6 minutes ago, D'Elle said:

I wish people would not be so quick to blame and condemn the dog. 

I did not blame or condemn the dog. The responsibility for this dog's death is clearly upon the the humans. Perhaps more information will help. This was in the mid 1960s, when dog trainers were few and far between. My parents had very few skills and there were no one available to teach them. It just wasn't there. There was no other 'appropriate environment' for him. The only other option was to take him to an county animal shelter where he would not have been put to sleep as humanely as he was at the vet. 

The dog was not defending himself. My dad had lost his temper and my brother was already bloody. I was 8 or 9 yrs old and watched the whole damn thing. The dog rushed in from another room to 'help' my dad, perhaps. Rusty was his name, and he followed my father everywhere.

Ruth & Gibbs

[Journey]

38 minutes ago, D'Elle said:

I wish people would not be so quick to blame and condemn the dog. 

Once you've seen a child bitten and bloody you'd change your mind. No, it's not generally the dogs fault. However, this OP is all over the map with this and leads me to believe the pup would be better back with the breeder. No one is wanting to label him a biter, just a situation that did not work for him and he bit. It's truthful. To say otherwise is a disservice to all.

[urge to herd]

22 minutes ago, D'Elle said:

If your children are not able to follow the rules that you set for them about the dog, then for everyone's safety you need to strongly consider returning Darcy. 

And here, I am not blaming the dog. RE-stating: if the children (she doesn't say how old her children are ~ or I couldn't find it) If the children can't for whatever reason follow the rules  . . .

And again: "Not every dog is right for every family. Not every family is right for a dog." We have no way of knowing, without further info from Erikor, what her situation and skills are.

If the children are too young to follow the rules about the dog, then both dog and children are at risk. I hope to hear from Erikor that she's successful in training/managing the children and the dog so that all can exist happily and peacefully. 

[erikor]

So not too much to report since it has only been a few days, but...

First a minor detail: Both myself and Darcy are male. (Yes, "erikor" is non-descript, my first name is Eric. And yes, Darcy is usually female, but he was named after Mr. Darcy from Pride and Prejudice.)

It seems to me there is truth in all these posts. After reading these posts, talking to the breeder, and friends, I have come to the conclusion that my youngest daughter smothered Darcy, and Darcy innocently gave her a nip on the nose to say "stop that". I was not supervising the interaction, and that was a mistake. My daughter had been told not to do that to Darcy, so doing it was a mistake on her part, but she is just a child. So that is on me too. I think Ruth and D'Elle are basically on the same page here: what Darcy did was not concerning by itself, but if I can't control the environment, bad things will happen for all involved.

I can and will supervise all interactions between Darcy and the girls from now on until I am confident both Darcy and the girls are old enough to have good judgement.

And yes, before this we had issues with resource guarding. That problem went away easily with training (frequent practicing of "drop it whether you want to or not"). 

So it is indeed possible that we are simply not smart enough, disciplined enough, or wise enough to own a border collie like Darcy. Nobody thinks of themselves that way. So perhaps you will not be impressed to learn I do not think of myself or my family in that way either ;).  Journey is concerned our home is not a good match for Darcy. You may be right. But I think, with changes we have made, it is. Of course I am both the most informed and the most biased on these points so only time will tell.

And it is possible that Darcy is a biter and is going to hurt one of my kids no matter what we do. Now how much of a risk should I tolerate there? If I can only accept zero risk, then I guess we should not have gotten a dog. My kids are put in harms way every day--they might get in a car accident, or catch COVID by going to cross country practice, or....or....or. Is the risk posed by Darcy to my children higher than these sorts of every day risks? If I don't learn from my mistakes then I think the answer is clearly "yes". But if I do learn from my mistakes, then I think the answer is "no". I might be wrong. If Darcy mauls one of my children I will regret it forever.

And wouldn't it be simpler just to get another dog? No. If we can't do right by Darcy, I see no reason to think we would do better with the next dog.

So Darcy stays with us. We have set new rules for both adults and children (and dog). We have an appointment with a board certified veterinary behavioralist in three weeks. I hope this serves as an illuminating example for other rookies like me in the future. I hope to report back in the coming months that all is well and progressing as expected. If something terrible happens, it will not be for lack of people here warning me. 

Let me just say, again, THANK YOU to each of you who have taken the time to share your wisdom and perspective with this first timer. 

[urge to herd]

Erikor, thanks so much for providing us with more information. I apologize for thinking  you were a mom, that shows some bias on my part. And I am always happy to share my experience with border collies, and dogs in general, with any one interested in them. 

I think you're wise to both set the new rules and consult an expert. I believe that your odds for a successful outcome for all of you have just increased quite a bit. A wise friend of mine has told me, 'We don't know what we don't know, until it bites us in the a**.'  You didn't know. 

Please keep posting about how it goes with Darcy. And what a great name for a dog! One of my favorite books as a kid.

Pictures. That's the only thing that's lacking here is puppy pictures.

Ruth & Gibbs

[erikor]

Ask and you shall receive...in the spirit of Halloween I include a picture of him posing by a bag of deck railing spindle brackets he recently “killed”. I hope that isn’t too ghastly. 
 

 

[urge to herd]

Adorbs.  Will do my best to recover from the bracket catastrophe.

R & G

[Flora & Molly]

You can go ahead and send him to the Netherlands when you don’t want him anymore! I’ll take him. What a cutie 

[Journey]

Oh, good grief...he is adorable!

[D'Elle]

21 hours ago, urge to herd said:

I did not blame or condemn the dog. The responsibility for this dog's death is clearly upon the the humans. Perhaps more information will help. This was in the mid 1960s, when dog trainers were few and far between. My parents had very few skills and there were no one available to teach them. It just wasn't there. There was no other 'appropriate environment' for him. The only other option was to take him to an county animal shelter where he would not have been put to sleep as humanely as he was at the vet. 

The dog was not defending himself. My dad had lost his temper and my brother was already bloody. I was 8 or 9 yrs old and watched the whole damn thing. The dog rushed in from another room to 'help' my dad, perhaps. Rusty was his name, and he followed my father everywhere.

Ruth & Gibbs

Point made, Ruth, and I apologize if it seemed I was criticizing  you. I did things with dogs may years ago that I now regret, but as you say there was no one to teach me a better way until I was older. 

21 hours ago, Journey said:

Once you've seen a child bitten and bloody you'd change your mind. No, it's not generally the dogs fault. However, this OP is all over the map with this and leads me to believe the pup would be better back with the breeder. No one is wanting to label him a biter, just a situation that did not work for him and he bit. It's truthful. To say otherwise is a disservice to all.

I have seen a child bitten, in fact mauled, by a dog. Not my dog! I wish the child had not gone through that, but it did not change my mind about how such incidents should be viewed. It's my opinion, but I don't demand anyone else see it my way. And every situation is different, It's possible that the dog should be returned in this case. But if so, it's not the fault of the dog and if he is labelled a biter I fear it will haunt him unfairly for the rest of his life. If not labelled, it's possible the dog would have a better life elsewhere, that is true.

[D'Elle]

And to Erikor-----that is one very handsome puppy you have there. I wish you all the best of luck with him.