Agility problems...

[punkrockbc]

hi everyone.. I've been training in Agility with Gonzo for what seems like forever. I think I've been to classes for 5-6 months. First we did puppy Agility when he was 8 months, his Obedience was horrible then so I decided to improve that a LOT before getting back into it. Then, early this year we were in 'O-bility' which is an intro to Agility (only 5 obstacles) with Rally-O components mixed in. He did REALLY well in that and we won all of the fun matches in the class of 20... yes, everyone hated us (=0D jk)!

 

Now we've been going to Agility classes at a really nice facility with a really nice teacher (who has 5 working BC's!!). Now that I'm advancing with him in Agility classes, I've noticed he is really uncomfortable with some of the obstacles. 90% of the time he just jumps off the side of the dog-walk when we get to the contact zone! the training technique they used for hitting the contact zone was wierd... the first thing they had us do was hold a treat in hand on a tile at the base of the dog-walk, and nudge him over while he's nibbling the treat until his back legs are on the dog-walk (the contact zone), then give him the treat! It is even more confusing then it sounds. I spent 20 minutes just trying to get that, giving Gonzo a break then going back and trying. He was really uncomfortable with it, even though he's ran up and down dog walks and hit the contact before this class with no problem. Now, he almost always jumps off when he gets to the contact zone. There are other issues with other obstacles that I wont even go into... basically, all he can do reliably is jumps, tunnels, weaves and pause tables. The rest really stress him.

 

erm... anyway, I dont want to write a book ;0)! I'd just really appreciate some advice as to what I should do. Gonzo is 4.. he's already been trained in Flyball and accepted onto a team. I was beginning to choose Agility over Flyball because he has a few issues with passing in Flyball... but now it seems like he has WAY more issues in Agility already. This Thursday, I'm supposed to pay $60 more for the month, but I don't know if I should go back. How much longer do guys think this will take him? He has VERY little experience with crossing or going through multiple obstacles at once. If this is going to take months and months, I'd rather just go back to flyball. He isn't getting younger, and I'm not getting any less busy T_T

 

I know there are tons of you that have amazing Agility pups and are great handlers, so I'd love some advice from you. I know I should talk to the trainer, but I'm pretty sure she'd just tell me to keep going and he'll come around. I guess I'm hoping that he'll miraculously get over his fears and we'll be able to start doing fun matches soon =( I dunno..

[kelpiegirl]

Sounds like a loosely interpreted version of backchaining. What I believe has happened is that in breaking down the behaviour slowly and methodically for your BC, he has associated that area (contact zone) as something to be afraid of. I suggest that you STOP what you are doing with the contact obstacles, including all contact zone training. If at all possible, get some equipment at home, or rent time at a place that has it, and play on the obstacles. The a frame, teeter and dog walk. Run by those obstacles- straight by, and if he takes them, don't say/do anything, but run fast, and if he happens to hit the zone, even if running right over it, (and you DO NOT hesitate, looking to see if he will), then throw him his toy. He will take cues off of you- treat the contact zones as if they weren't there. He is smart, he will get it. Stay away from classes, get back to him playing with the equipment comfortably.

Julie

[MrSnappy]

Are you trying for a running contact or a 2on/2off?

 

I had to retrain Tweed's running contact to a 2o/2o because his running contact deteriorated into NO contact. So I trained it on the stairs. I gave it a command and practiced until he got it right. Lots of rewarding. When we went back on equipment, I redid every obtacle until he hit his contact correctly, then rewarded. I don't like using the target plate because he would then just look for food on the ground.

 

I backchained Piper - I taught her a 2o/2o before she was ever allowed on contact obstacles. She is not perfect yet, but has only been training a short time. She does stop in the contact zone though.

 

If you want a 2o/2o I would train it OFF equipment in a fun way so he knows that it's a command unto itself and then introduce the command on equipment. If you can get him to the point where he instantly does the 2o/2o (mine is "hit it") when he hears the command, he may forget about the anxiety he has developed on the contact obstacle because he's conditioned to perform the behaviour.

 

RDM

[Zoe]

Hi, I haven't started agility proper with Dylan ( 14 months old ) yet, but have been reading as much as I can. And I am doing what Mr. Snappy suggests. I am using an idea from the special contacts issue of Clean Run without using an obstacle - just a board flat on the ground to teach the 1-R-T-O position. It is written in a really straightforward easy to understand way. Maybe you should check that issue out. I don't know if the board would be too much like the obstacles that are stressing your dog out... Maybe the stairs would be a good place to start. But making a simple board fun would maybe be a good way too. I don't think I would continue with the class if my dog was getting stressed out and his performance was actually getting worse. I can't see that he would just miraculously get better one day. But that is just my hunch - I have no experience !!! I hope things work out. I'm so excited about starting agility with Dylan !

[punkrockbc]

thanks a lot for the replies!

 

Yeah, I do think that going very very slowly over contacts and pushing him onto them and picking him up and putting him on them is just stressing him out. He doesn't like to get treats and praise and excitement if he isnt working for it.. if anyone understands that =P. Like, I remember when I tried to clicker train him by just giving him a treat whenever I clicked, he immediately began stressing over the click and acting confused. I completely see what you're saying, Kelpiegirl... I would do that every day if I had access to dog-walks, teeters, and frames. I have a practice course that only consists of jumps, weaves, a pause table and a tunnel (strange coincidence that these are the obstacles he's fine with!). I've been trying to convince my Dad to build some, but hes not interested. And the nearest Agility course is 1 hour away.. at our Agility place.

 

MrSnappy, thanks! He does know "hit it" from Flyball, and I'll definitely talk to my trainer about the 2on/2off method. The training plates really annoy me =D. I'll definitely practice on the stairs every day

 

bleh. I feel bad about thinking of quitting this after the work we've done already, but I seriously see me and Gonzo doing this a year from now =0).. which seems not-so-worth-it at this moment. Especially since I have to drive 1 hour there, spend 1 hour training, then drive 1 hour back. dilemmas -.-

[Deanna in OR]

ummm, you said you hoped this didn't take "months and months"...how long do you think it should take to train your dog for Agility? From your description, your dog is still quite young, perhaps under 2 years old? and you are new to Agility, also?

 

We have been training our Border Collie, Tenaya, starting with Obedience and "Obedience for Agility" for 2 years now (along with Rally, Disc Dog and SAR). We are new to Agility so we are learning, too, in weekly classes and daily work on things like weaves and a contact board. We think MAYBE we'll be ready for a competition this coming winter. Some of our classmates (having gone through all the classes with us) are just starting to enter trials.

 

I know that EXPERIENCED Agility handlers with an adult dog can train the dog ready to compete in a trial in a few months--if they have all the equipment nearby and can practice most every day.

 

But it sounds like your expectations are pretty high for how long it should take to train a dog (and yourself, a most important part of the team) to do Agility. It may seem like too much to drive so far and pay so much for lessons, and plan on that for some time to come.... maybe, then, Agility isn't for you and your dog.

 

So what if you and Gonzo are doing this a year from now? If you're having fun building your relationship with your dog...well, why else would you bother?

 

Deanna in OR

[punkrockbc]

Thats definitely true, Deanna. I do come off kinda flakey... =P

 

Gonzo is actually 4 years old. I rescued him when he was about 6 months old, we went to 8 weeks of Obedience and then Puppy/Beginning Agility when he was 8 months old. The first agility classes were not very successful, because he was so distracted (being a BC puppy!) and his Obedience was just not there yet. We went through more Obedience and when he was 1 year old started Flyball training. He was accepted onto a Flyball team after he went through 2 beginning classes and 1 intermediate. He had a lot of issues with chasing other dogs in Flyball, because of Obedience issues and because he was soo young and hyper. Last year, we went to Obedience classes at with *awesome* trainers for about 8 months. he went all the way to competitive level, not because I want to do OB trials but because I wanted to bond with him more and learn all about it. Earlier this year, we took O-bility classes and he did really well. We started Agility again in June, and he's still in Beginning classes. It's just gotten kinda frustrating, for me and Gonzo, to be moving so slow and still have so much more work to do before we can actually compete in matches.

 

 

His Obedience is insanely solid now, he's 1000% better with distractions/chasing/recall than when he was 2.. so I'm starting to consider just sticking to Flyball. I was wondering if these Agility problems are fairly easy to overcome or if it will take a lot more work to just get through the Beginning stage. It is starting to sound like Agility isn't for us, or the trainer isn't for us, or something. I feel like I could train for a year if Gonzo was younger and I had more time, but I guess going to classes isn't that fun to me when we aren't going anywhere.. especially when Gonzo is so uncomfortable with a lot of it.

[Deanna in OR]

I understand about questioning whether "it's the right sport for us" when neither you nor your dog seem to be having fun with it. I've gone through that same questioning with my collie Willow--we've done Obedience and Rally training (she barely made it to her Rally Advanced title), and it's hard for me to make it enough fun for her to continue--she just is bored with Obedience! But she loves Agility, so that's where we'll focus most of our training energy.

 

On the other hand, our Border Collie Tenaya is happy to work at anything, including Obedience, but she thinks she knows more than her handlers (well, maybe she does!), and my husband can get frustrated with her in Agility class because she is just so over the top! Tenaya will eventually be the better Agility dog (compared to Willow), but she's taking longer to train because of trying to direct and contain her energy. Our current teacher is "bumping us up" to the next class, partly because the next class's instructor is a man with a high-energy Border Collie, and our current teacher thinks he may be able to help us (especially my husband) do a better job of training Tenaya. I mention this because different trainers with different dog experiences can provide new insights or ways to manage a dog's training. Perhaps at least trying a different Agility trainer might be able to help you and Gonzo, if you think it's something you'll enjoy together in the end.

 

And even though Gonzo is 4, a lot of dogs continue in Agility past age 10, so don't feel like if you can't get him trained in Agility this year, it's too late.

 

and for contact training...in addition to the stairs, have you tried just targeting "anywhere" (we use plastic container lids for the target) as a means for training the "stop right there" behavior that is the beginning of a 2o2o contact? In our first Obedience For Agility class, we used a bath mat to clicker train two-on-two-off as the dog just walked around on and off of the mat. That would be a way to go back to square one and start retraining contacts at home, without putting Gonzo in the position you want, just waiting for him to happen into the right position and clicking/rewarding it.

 

and also, you can make a contact board to train with--just get a long piece of 2x12 lumber (8 or 10 feet), paint the top with colors of your choice, including a yellow "contact zone" at each end, then you can use the board flat on the ground (or with a piece of pipe in the center as a small "teeter" trainer) to practice contacts at home. you can even make it yourself without waiting for your dad to "build" it for you. With targets at the ends, and perhaps a clicker, you can re-train him on the desired contact behavior in a much less threatening environment. This kind of contact board at home could help with all of the contact equipment.

 

Good luck,

Deanna in OR

[Annette Carter & the Borderbratz]

Erica,

 

I think Gonzo is insecure due to the introduction of ambiguity in the training of contacts.

 

If I were you, I would train 2 on 2 off. I would put him back on lead and train him to "touch" while not allowing him to bail. Once he knows what is expected of him and can "Get it right", he will have fun and be happy. Bailing off is an avoidance behavior-Gonzo doesn't want to be wrong.

 

When I train 2 on 2 off, all treats come from me but the dog's position on the equipment comes from me too. I put him in position and then treat. I want a dog to do the contact while looking to me, not the ground. I used to use target dishes but found fading them necessary, time consuming, and not as effective as I'd like them to be.

[airbear]

Originally posted by Annette Carter & the Borderbratz:

I want a dog to do the contact while looking to me, not the ground. I used to use target dishes but found fading them necessary, time consuming, and not as effective as I'd like them to be.

Hi Annette,

 

Just curious, why do you want the dog looking at you? When I trained 2o/2o with my little dog, I trained her to race to the end, slam those front paws on the ground, hold on for dear life with the back paws on the equipment, and point dead straight ahead with her nose lowered (but not touching) the ground. My understanding is that a lowered head takes some of the pressure off the shoulders, especially on the a-frame. Also, I don't want her to cue off my body position; though I am quite fast, she has very fast contacts, and often is at the bottom before me, so I don't want her looking around, wondering where I am. Also, she has a verbal release, not a physical cue, so where I am matters not a jot to her. Plus she watches me too much anyway (we have a static problem. )

 

 

In this pic, I am pointing at the ground out of habit with my big dog (who has point-and-pray contacts). I could be pointing straight in the air, since it doesn't mean anything to her.

 

I, too, eschewed the target plate, prefering instead to get the end behaviour off equipment (stairs) and then transfer it to the obstacle. This is mostly because we train infrequently on equipment (once or twice a month) but we can navigate stairs, park benches and tree trunks on our daily walks.

 

Oh sure, she takes the odd flyer, but by and large, I am very pleased with her contacts. To your point, a dog that knows her job will be more confident than a dog who is given vague or shifting criteria. For Wick, there is one way to do contacts, and she is very happy to perform them (although it took 18 months to get her on a teeter ).

[Rave]

yeah I'm curious too, why do you want the dog looking at you while running the contact?

[laurie etc]

Originally posted by airbear:

looking at you? When I trained 2o/2o with my little dog, I trained her to race to the end, slam those front paws on the ground, hold on for dear life with the back paws on the equipment, and point dead straight ahead with her nose lowered (but not touching) the ground. My understanding is that a lowered head takes some of the pressure off the shoulders, especially on the a-frame. Also, I don't want her to cue off my body position; though I am quite fast, she has very fast contacts, and often is at the bottom before me, so I don't want her looking around, wondering where I am. Also, she has a verbal release, not a physical cue, so where I am matters not a jot to her.

This is how I teach a contact, also. I don't want my dog looking up at me, because long-term it can injure the shoulders and spine. A low head postiion also help them balance themselves (almost a crouch)and is best for them physically. It also keeps them straight on, and ready to take the next verbal command. I start with a target (lid) and very quickly fade it (within days). The target just serves to get the dog to stop, look ahead (down and not at me), so he's being rewarded for the straight body position, with head low. I reward the dog low also, not looking up for the treat or toy. Instead of nudging the dog on, I teach a "get up", where the dog wraps around me and gets on the bottom of the obstacle from the side (in the yellow) and steps down to the 2o/2o position in one smooth movement (not turning around on the equipment). I also release on a verbal, and not on body language. This way I can run past the obstacle to position myself if necessary, and my dog stays in position until verbally released.

I also agree that a "professional" can train a dog quickly to be "trial ready" but it can take most handlers (without their own set of equipment) a good year or two to get the dog to that point.

[Rave]

seems not-so-worth-it at this moment. Especially since I have to drive 1 hour there, spend 1 hour training, then drive 1 hour back.

 

HA! You got it made! Try spending an hour driving there, an hour setting courses by yourself, 2 hours training students and still only 1 hour to train all your dogs and getting back well after 10pm. Even if I just go out to train my dogs, it's still an hour to set a course I want to run since nothing is usually set. And inevitably, some students will want to come out for privates.

 

It takes time and patience for a novice to train their first agility dog. Try talking to your instructor about this issue if you haven't already. See if she'll concede on the method used for contacts. I know an instructor around here who insists on one method, whether it stresses the dog out or not, whether it's appropriate for the dog or not, and she's shut down a lot of nice agility dogs that way. There's no one perfect method to teach contacts - agility is not a one-size-fits-all activity. You have to do what works for your dog and you AND what will allow you to be successful with reliable performances.

[Keegan's Mom]

First of all, let me start off by saying that working your dog for 5-6 months is NOT a long time. We started Keegan when he was about 8 months old. Took one class and hated it so we took a break until he was about 1 year old and found a trainer I liked...one that took her time with me and Keegan as well as came up with different ways to work my dog if one way didn't seem to work. Keegan is now 3 years and 3 months old and we STILL do not compete. We STILL have major issues!!! We do go to show-n-gos and I believe that we progress a lot but there are a lot of obstacles and a lot of progressing to do. One month we might progress greatly on the table (which he hated), the next month leading out from, the next month putting several items together, etc!!!! My point being that it is a LONG process for some...especially for me but I don't want to give up because Keegan loves it!!!!

 

OK, onto contacts...my dog blows them every time. I have gotten advice from many people and what I have finally decided to incorporate several ideas. (Laura - you will be interested and might be able to offer some more advice).

 

We started using a harness to train contacts. He is leashed for every contact obstacle. I pull back on the harness as we approach the downward contact and tell him bottom. I expect a 2on/2off contact. We do not use a target because he was only interested in that for about 2 minutes. He used it at Laura's and the first class after for about 2 minutes. I then release his leash and expect him to stay until I give the "OK" command. I still expect 2on/2off.

 

The problem I still have and could use advice for is that after training this method he will still run over contacts if I am not using the leash/harness. I believe that he knows what is expected of him. So I feel like we aren't accomplishing much because the harness always has to be there!!!!

 

So anyway, my main reason for posting is to say - BE PATIENT!!!!!! If I wasn't patient I would have given up a year or more ago, but the dog loves it and I do too!!!!

 

On a side note - Laura would be proud to know that Keegan is learning how to properly enter the weave poles with incorporating a jump at the front. I've gone back to 3 poles and add on after he catches on. That is what we are working on this month...in addition to contacts!!!! See it takes time and sometimes it takes a VERY LONG TIME!!!!

[Rave]

Rachel,

Once the dog understands you want the stop (and this may take awhile since you're retraining), you should not be pulling back on the harness at all... it's only used to prevent him from leaving the contact (leash is kept slack while on contact). The harness/leash can and should be faded once he is offering reliable behavior at speed. Right now, it sounds like the harness/leash is Keegan's cue to stop, instead of a verbal from you.

 

YAY for the weave pole entries.

[Keegan's Mom]

Yeah, you are right. I didn't realize this. I will try to a loose lead tomorrow night with the verbal command...see what I get. When I am beside him he goes slow. When I'm not beside he flies over, jumps on the side and turns around to look at me such as saying "Wow, that was fun, can we do it again, mom?".

 

We are getting there...slowly but surely.

[Annette Carter & the Borderbratz]

I want the dog's eyes on me for a release, not necessarily from a raised head position. There have also been some very fast green BCs who have busted their faces on the floor at indoor trials. They were trained with target dishes. Maybe that is the handler's fault for not fading them properly before setting off to trial the dog. I over handle contacts, I admit but I have to or my dog will blow them. I've been taught this way by the Boltons and in 4 years of training this dog this has been the only way I can gain control of what happens at the contacts. Of course I first taught running contacts...But Indy is a short little guy. Even so he can blow any down contact. I don't want him looking at me while running. I want him to look at me when he gets his 2 feet on the ground. The exercise looks like, this: dog runs down, places 2 feet on the floor and looks at mom for the release. If for some reason he doesn't see mom, he stays put. I'm sure it looks like most people's contacts of 2 on 2 off but I broke it up differently I guess

 

I can change the contact exercise & can even call downs on a contact, so I can get his eyes and release him with an "OK" All calling the down does in this instance is get him to shift his weight back for just a second. Either way I do it (2 exercises with 2 different voice cues) if the separate exercise is to look for the release, I can call "bottom" or "down" and it doesn't matter because the "look for release" is separate.

 

All this is, is training him to wait for a release FROM ME before continuing on.

 

I'm also pretty darned fast and I do my absolute best to be there for him. This has basically been a retraining of something I messed up from the get go and now I have to make the exercise very different and very clear to him.

 

I know the next question is "why teach different exercises at the bottom of a contact?"

 

I have a dog that would be just as happy reading the courses and running them without me, but alas he doesn't get to walk them beforehand. I have to keep him thinking. I have to over work him just so that he will even care that I'm there with him. So I mix things up to keep them interesting. I also generally mix up the jump heights in practice so he has to think about taking the jumps.

He is a very hard dog to run. This is actually working for me.

[Rave]

When I am beside him he goes slow

 

How fast are YOU going? You should be hauling @ss!

[Keegan's Mom]

If I go slow...he goes slow. If I haul @ss...he goes at the speed of light and missing his contact.

 

I guess what I should be doing while on leash is haul @ss but MAKE him hit his contact so that he doesn't associate hitting his contact with going slow and not having as much fun?

[Rave]

Annette, I think we misunderstood your original post... it sounded like you wanted the dog looking at you while running the contact.

[Rave]

*CLICK*

[Rave]

Annette,

it sounds like our dogs' performances are the same (although I admit I didn't train her to look for me, she just does)...

 

driving ahead to end:

 

hurry up slowpoke!!

 

yes, she's supposed to be in a 2o/2o, but she was still learning/proofing when this was taken.

[punkrockbc]

wow, thanks for all of the replies! I have a LOT to think about... I have to talk to our trainer today or tomorrow. I didn't even comprehend how long this would take or how much work, I guess I wasn't even thinking about all of the contacts, crossing, signals, and *everything* that has to be learned before you even think of trialing. Gonzo is super sensitive and doesn't like to do anything wrong, so I think thats making this harder. Im starting to really miss Flyball just thinking about it... all he had to learn was to haul @zz over 4 jumps, get a ball and run back

 

phokie.. I guess I do have it easy .. but, Im also 16 and lucky to have the car that I have. My parents aren't getting why I drive 150 miles and stay out until 10pm for dog training! ~_~

[Annette Carter & the Borderbratz]

Hehe,

 

Yeah, but your dog actually cares where you are! I had to train mine to care lol!

 

Rachel, Try Hauling @ss BUT when you reach past the peak of the A-frame or the top of the down side of the dogwalk, make a real conscious effort to keep your self erect. Throw your shoulders back and pick your head up. Just this much less forward motion may be enough to cue you dog to slow down so you can work your contact. And remember to work the contact until the exercise is over. So often our own adrenaline takes place and we cut contact working short-expecially in trials. IOW, don't think about the next obstacle until the contact has been worked to satisfaction.

[CollieKat]

Contacts are possibly the hardest thing to get right when you are in the ring. the way i train is 2 on 2 off. I use a pringles lid and place the treat in that but prior to running my dog, I always show Meg the treat beforehand, then take her to the opposite side. Then she is allowed to run. I always taught her and I teach my students to get their dog to look forward to the next obstacle.

 

If the dogs eyes are on the handler then the dog is unbalanced as he has to look up and watching the handler instead of the next obstacle and the dog in most cases is likely to miss the next obstacle. In my own personal experience I prefer for the dog to adopt a low crouching position as the dog most times then gets the contact as his body is elongated. Body language is critical and the handler should always hang back a few feet from the contact and also shouldn't be right beside the dog as the dog will try to race the handler if the dog feels that the handler is on top of the dog.

 

6 months is nothing for agility training! I'm assuming as well that this is your first agility dog, so its important to bear in mind that you and him are both on a learning curve. Just for the record, I've been doing agility for 8 years now and although Meggie got to Championship, she and I were both learning continuously, just like Kes and I will have to learn together.

 

Don't give up. Its great fun when it all comes together. It just takes time