Maturity and Positive Training

[ourwully]

Juno is now 17 months old and is a wonderful dog. I got her when she was 10 weeks old and, for the most part, all of her training has been positive. About a month ago I realized that her recalls were sloppy and that I was just kidding myself that she was improving so I decided to put her on a long line with the end cut off and start counting to make sure I did at least 20 recalls a day. We walk for two 45 minute unleashed walks a day (with long line attached) and I make sure we do at least 10 recalls to the words "Juno Come" and at least 2 recalls to a sports whistle so most days she is close to 30 recalls. I also do recalls in the house. Since I have started counting them she has only missed a couple of recalls and even those she has returned but slowly. Although this sounds impressive I have been careful to never call her if I think she won't come because of a distraction of some sort. Fortunately, the woods we walk in is fairly safe so I haven't had to recall her in an emergency situation and I have the long line as a bit of a backup. The other thing I should mention is that she may wander off 50 yards or so once and a while, but she still always follows along with me and will check in frequently. So overall, our walks are very pleasant and I am very happy with our progress.

 

When I look back at the last year I think I have done a lot of good training and I have certainly put in the time, but part of me wonders if maturity rather than training has been the biggest factor. So, although I am happy with the recall, I am still not convinced that it is 100% yet even though I am convinced that it will be 100% when she reaches full maturity.

 

There is one other area where I am waiting for maturity to kick in and that is meeting other people or dogs. When Juno sees a person on our walks she wants to pull if she is on leash, and if she is off leash she wants to run up to them and jump up (in a friendly way). To deal with this I have been using the "Look at That" game and this is always successful if I see the person first and we can maintain a distance of about three to four feet. The long line is also useful here so if I see someone coming along I grab the long line and use it as a leash. We have been using the Look at that game for at least a year now and it always works at a distance so overall the meeting people is not a big problem for us. Over time the game has helped Juno to deal with cars, bicycles, other dogs and almost any distraction so I am really happy about this but if we get really close to a person she will still jump up unless I have her sit, and even then, she might jump up the odd time. So to sum this issue up, I would say I am not confident in her meeting behaviours right now but I am confident that they will be good when she reaches full maturity.

 

I hope the background I have given is sufficient to set up my bigger questions about positive training and maturity.

 

1. Is Juno a typical 17 month old in that she is mostly trained and getting better daily?

2. With positive training, do I just have to wait, until she matures before I can expect 100% recall and no jump meetings with people.

3. Does the speed of training depend on the individual dog and its rate of maturity.

4. How do you deal with emergencies with positive training.

 

I apologize for this convoluted post but I am struggling with the actual question I want answered.

Bill

[Root Beer]

What has your +R training protocol for your recalls been?

 

It sounds like you haven't trained the recalls to fluency.

 

For keeping four on the floor while meeting people, I don't think I would rely solely on LAT. Have you trained her, separately, to keep four on the floor as a specific behavior, with a high rate of reinforcement?

[ourwully]

Hi Root Beer

I am not sure if I am answering your question here but all I do is let her loose and then call "Juno Come". I haven't done any more than that. So far she has been coming well but if I should be doing more I would welcome the suggestion. Ditto with the "four on the floor". I haven't been doing any specific thing to encourage four on the floor. Detailed training suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance

Bill

[gcv-border]

With regard to "Come" - No offense intended, but your manner sounds very boring to a dog. Make her WANT to come to you, not HAVE to come to you. There are many threads here on how to train a "come' command. Please review them to find suggestions that fit in with your training style.

 

I like to hide a toy in my hand (assuming that Juno likes a toy?), and when she is a few feet away, call "come" and then play like crazy with her (generally tug with the toy) when she does come. As she learns the game, wait until she is further away, then call "come" and run away from her while wiggling the toy so she can see. Once she gets to you, play like crazy.

 

Also look up "restrained recall" as a technique for teaching "come"

 

In short, I like to make the teaching part into a game that they enjoy. Even with my 7 year old who knows the command, if I feel he is a bit more of a laggard then I want, I will start playing with him using a tug toy to improve his motivation to 'come' to me.

[ourwully]

Hi GCV-BORDER

 

I just returned from our afternoon walk and Juno's recall was 100%, but as I mentioned I only called her when there was no distractions. I might have made it seem boring, but I try to call with enthusiasm and when she comes I give her a treat and lots of praise. Every day she seems to be getting better. She was also two for two on the whistle command. When she comes to the whistle I always make a fuss, give her a special treat and feed it to her slowly in pieces.

 

I like your idea with the toy and the idea in general to make it into a game. Although Juno is improving daily I can see that it might get boring for her over time. I'll see if I can vary it up a bit tomorrow.

 

In the mean time I will look up restrained recall

 

Thanks

Bill

[gcv-border]

Bill-

By no means do I think that you are a bad trainer. You have done great with Juno. But as I have learned myself, I can be boring too - so I try to be more 'exciting'. I also am always on the alert for different ways to train that will keep the enthusiasm up.

[waffles]

30 times in a day seems very excessive. You will also want to build up to calling her with distractions otherwise what's the point? For me, a recall is a safety feature and I want a dog to come to me with heavy distraction (that should be the end goal). So my suggestion is to scale back on the number of repetitions as I can see that being boring or almost like nagging (let her be to have fun on your walls). If she comes without distractions then start calling for mild distractions- so if she is mildly interested in sniffing call her. If she recalls then good! Build from there and just wait for moments where she is farther away or hide behind a tree or wait for her to be galloping towards something and so on.

 

Also, switch up the reward to make it fun. Toys, different food items, use running away and lots of praise/petting as rewards.

 

Remember to just have fun! All the reps can make for a drill sergeant.

[CptJack]

Thirty times a day is a lot. A whole lot. Even if she only sleeps 8 hours, that's twice an hour for the remaining 16? I agree, be careful. Too much and you go from teaching to burning it out for the dog and quashing desire to do it.

Definitely up the excitement, vary the rewards, and start making it a little harder for her. Little distractions, different situations, different rewards. You want this to be reliable, yeah, but you don't want it to be ROTE and robotic.

[ourwully]

Thank you for the suggestions. I have a very thick skin and welcome the bluntest of comments. Sometimes the harshest comments are the accurate ones. I only want to improve.

 

Regarding the number of repetitions, it was my understanding that rote recall was the objective, like the whiplash turn so that there is no thinking involved. The reason I increased the number is that I was only recalling her two or three times a walk and her recall did not seem to be improving. Since I have upped it to at least 10 per walk I have noticed a marked improvement. For example, on our walk this afternoon she went off the trail to sniff an area where a coyote had done its business. She has been attracted to this spot so today when she was almost at the spot I called her and she came directly. To be honest, I was a bit surprised how good she was. I will try reducing the number of recalls and I will try varying the rewards and see what happens. I have a lot to think about here.

 

One of the problems with describing a situation, is that you can never do it well enough to give the whole picture. When you say 30 recalls a day I suppose it does seem a lot but during the walk it doesn't seem that much to me. When we get to the woods I let her loose and I call her almost immediately and then a couple more times within a minute or two. After that she gets to go where she wants. Sometimes she runs like crazy into the woods chasing some scent and other times she just walks along with me or plays with a black lab that is often out with us. It is her choice. Every once and a while I will do a few more recalls usually in a group of two or three so out of a 45 to 60 minute walk recalls take up a couple of minutes. The rest of the time she is free. . All this said, 10 to 15 recalls per walk may very well be too much but I am sure she is having a lot of fun most of the time.

 

Anyway, I have some valuable suggestions here and I will give some of them a try.

 

Thanks again

Bill

[CptJack]

The thing is, the best way to make the recall automatic is to make it valuable to the dog - not necessarily drill it. I mean you can do a ton of recalls, and to be honest if I think about it I probably recall my dogs a lot over the course of a day or a walk. I think the thing is, it's not something I say 'we're going to recall 10 times per walk'. I recall the dogs, I toss a ball. I recall the dog, and I wave a tug around and we play a little. I recall the dog and I give it food. I recall the dog and then take off running the other way. I recall the dog and then point them toward the lake for a swim. It's done as part of play with the dog, not an obedience exercise. It's also interspersed by fetch, tug, chasing me, swimming, and whatever other nonsense, but every time they are recalled something GOOD happens.

When your dog starts slowing down in performing, it means the exercise is losing value in the exercise and you need to build that in. That means not just not recalling when the dog won't come, but stopping BEFORE the dog is burning out on it. If she's not doing that, then you're probably fine, but that IS part of keeping enthusiasm as well as upping the excitement and energy and sorts of rewards you're dishing out for it.

 

In ANY training scenario you want to stop before the dog is sick of it. Otherwise, it forms a negative rather than positive association; it turns it into a chore.

 

This past summer we were doing classes at the height of summer. We'd make it about half an hour into a group lesson and the heat would be getting to her. Her enthusiasm would wan, she would slow down and eventually she'd just STOP and stare at me. She didn't WANT to do it anymore, and it was taking something that she LOVED doing, and turning it into an unpleasant, necessary task. And again: this is something she LOVES and is heavily rewarded for.

Stopping at 28 minutes, while she was still up and WANTED to do it more helped her build drive to do it next time. Because she wanted to do a little more, rather than going "Ugh, sick of this."

 

So, yeah, you're going to be the one who is reading the situation. Just make sure the dog is still enthusiastic and having FUN recalling to you. Because when I said rote, I didn't mean automatic. I meant you'd get a stodgy, reluctant, robotic recall eventually instead of "YEEHAW" flying at you like they were shot out of a canon.

[Root Beer]

Hi Root Beer

I am not sure if I am answering your question here but all I do is let her loose and then call "Juno Come". I haven't done any more than that. So far she has been coming well but if I should be doing more I would welcome the suggestion. Ditto with the "four on the floor". I haven't been doing any specific thing to encourage four on the floor. Detailed training suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance

Bill

 

How do you clearly mark her response as correct when she comes and how do you reinforce the behavior? High value treat? Toy play? Personal play? A send away? Permission to sniff, etc.?

 

Four on the floor is simple. Get something she can put her feet up on - a sturdy box, an overturned feed dish, a step stool. Use a treat to lure her so her front feet are up on it (or you can wait her out and shape it, but if you haven't done shaping, I probably wouldn't start with that as a first shaping exercise). Once she is up, mark, praise, and give a few treats. Then use the food to lure her off, and again mark, praise, and give some treats.

 

Once she is anticipating those lures, let her offer putting her paws up and taking her paws off. Still mark an give treats when she does either behavior.

 

Once she has gotten that idea, you can name both behaviors. I call two paws up "up up" and four on the floor "off". So when I anticipate that the dog is going to put two paws up, I try to say "up up" either just before or as the dog is starting to do so - mark and reinforce. when I anticipate that the dog is going to put the paws back on the floor, I cue "off" and mark and reinforce. Repeat until you see that the dog is understanding the words. That usually does not take very long, as this is a pretty simple training structure.

 

Now you can practice on other objects: two paws up on a piece of furniture (up up), four on the floor (off). Two paws up on you (up up), four on the floor (off). If you have someone you can work with, you can cue two paws up on that person (up up), four on the floor (off). You can also start to vary your reinforcer here. If she likes toy play, you can cue "off" and start a game of tug or fetch. This can be a very fun game to play with a toy incorporated. Once it is rock solid, you can start to use it in situations where she would typically jump up. At first reinforce, but over time you can wean off to praise alone.

[Chanse]

I agree with CptJack and waffles on the repetitions. It's good to drill behaviors, but it's also important that you don't overdue it and make it boring. 30 does sound like a lot, but like you said, spread out over a walk it won't seem like much. I think it is more important to consider the quality of each recall and not the quantity.

 

There are really 3 parts to the recall behavior (i.e. whiplash turn). There is the Leave it, Reorienting, and the Return. I definitely recommend do a lot of work on leave it. This will help with impulse control, which can benefit any training done with distractions. Reorienting can always be worked on. Any time the dog looks to you, mark the behavior and reward. The return you can do a few things. Restrained recalls like gcv-border mentioned can help with speed. I will also do recalls where I give the command then run away. Archer now almost sprints to me every time I call him (which is entertaining to watch inside because of the wood floors. He tries so hard to gain some speed but he usually ends up on the ground, especially around a corner).

 

Also, up the criteria on your recalls inside. Make the recall more challenging in some way. There are lots of things you can do. Usually distance isn't an option, but you can always add distractions. I like tossing a treat then calling Archer back before he reaches the treat. He gets an even better treat when he returns, then he is released to go and find the tossed treat. I plan on working up to being able to call him away from his favorite toy (the tennis ball). I also like to do surprise recalls. Maybe I will walk into the kitchen while Archer is on the couch, then once I get out there I give the recall cue, then a play session starts once he reaches me. That was only one recall, but one very high quality recall.

 

Donna Hill has a pretty nice 3 part series on training a recall. This might give you some ideas, especially part 3 which is about adding distractions (

), but I also recommend to check out the other to parts to make sure Juno is ready for the challenges in part 3.

[Tea]

Maybe I am a bit dim, but I am confused by this

[Root Beer]

What do you find confusing? The original question? The suggestions that some of us have made? A particular suggestion?

[Tea]

I am not sure?

 

I have had pups that I needed to put on a rope the first time they went on the trail, as they were interested in things. but soon learned to be part of the job they needed to focus.....

 

And some that were shyer and did need to mature I guess, tho I question dogs like that as it is not desirable in my work, ya know?

 

However, I do not drill, I guess in the sense of that word, I only do my chores. The young dog knows, or learned if he doesn't stay with me and wait patient he doesn't get to work, get sent out. Some just know this, of my dogs.

 

is this in relation to the sheep work too?

 

(Lambing and in the barn area where we get internet)

[Root Beer]

Hi Root Beer

 

Ditto with the "four on the floor". I haven't been doing any specific thing to encourage four on the floor. Detailed training suggestions would be appreciated.

 

Thanks in advance

Bill

 

Ask and ye shall receive!! Well, if I'm on a set of two snow days in a row!!

 

You actually spurred me on to start a project that I have had in mind for quite some time.

 

Here is a visual of how I train "four on the floor". Once the dogs has the skill, there are quite a few places where it can be used, and helping a jumpy dog keep four on the floor around people is one of the most obvious.

 

[ourwully]

Hi Root Beer

 

When I recall Juno I do it in an upbeat voice and often I say "Good Girl" just as she starts to come. When she reaches me I often give her the hand signal for sit and she sits. I praise her and then give her a treat. Once she gets the treat she goes off to what she was doing before. So her reward is mostly food but she does get praise and she does get freedom directly after. I think if you saw me you would see it as a natural part of walking in the woods. We probably walk 5 or 6 miles every day, rain or shine, snow or even minus 20+ of late. I love walking as much as Juno does so we are on the move. An outside observer would hardly notice the training component. As several have mentioned, I need to vary my rewards. I think this will be easy enough. Cpt Jack has given me several good suggestions here. I will have to read over the suggestions and try to incorporate some of them. Overall, I am pretty happy with the recall, but these suggestions should just make it better.

 

Thank you very much for the video. That is really helpful!! I will get right on that. I have really been struggling with this issue for some time and didn't know really where to start. This was one of the reasons I was asking about maturity and positive training. When Juno would jump on someone I would say " Don't Jump" as if that was going to do any good. When I had a cooperative helper I would have them turn away and make Juno sit for a treat but this was only slightly successful. The idea of positively training her to jump up and get off makes a huge amount of sense. Don't laugh but I was hoping that eventually (by maturity) she would just grow out of the jumping. At least now I can try something.

 

thanks

Bill

[Root Beer]

The idea of positively training her to jump up and get off makes a huge amount of sense. Don't laugh but I was hoping that eventually (by maturity) she would just grow out of the jumping. At least now I can try something.

 

thanks

Bill

 

Sometimes they do, but not always. I actually like for my dogs to jump up if they are invited, so I train them to stay off as a default, but if someone wants to invite the dog up, they can - and Dean and Bandit (who is a work in progress) love that!!

 

Enjoy! This is actually one of my favorite things to train. Dean enjoyed the refresher he got making the video.

[brady's mom]

I train something called the Really Reliable Recall that we learned in obedience class and it's a life saver. I think Leslie Nelson created it, but I'm not sure.

 

You have a toy (or whatever is of really, really high value to your pup) that is ONLY to be used for this "game." You begin at home, then the yard, then the park, then the trail, etc. When your dog is busy and not paying attention to you, you sneakily grab the toy and give your command (or have a different command for this on that means, "Get your butt here right now."), making it as exciting as possible. When they come, you reward with an exciting play session. After the session, you release the dog and the toy goes up. Do that a couple times a day, increasing the criteria, and it becomes automatic. Plus, it's a lot of fun.

 

The downside is that you have to carry said toy with you on trips and such. It does work without the toy, if you use it and don't happen to have the Super Special Reward on you, I just make sure to be really exciting and jump and play with my dog. It's worked for us so far! I can call Pup off of squirrels, birds, balls, etc.

 

I believe it's mostly used for emergencies, but I use it everyday, because it works.

 

Hope that can be of some kind of help!

[D'Elle]

Just want to second what others have said about making the recall valuable to the dog. I have trained excellent recalls (so far it's 100%, but I would never say that I had 100% recall because you just never know....), by making it super valuable to the dog. All I do to accomplish this is that while we are out and off leash I carry good treats with me, and every now and then I blow the whistle in a certain pattern, and/or call them by name. To the dogs, this means "Treats are being passed out!" and they come running. After they get the treat, they can go back to what they were doing. So, no down side to it at all for the dog. If I ever have to call them and do not have a treat, or there is some other downside to coming to me, it won't matter because it will be one time out of a thousand that they did not get a treat and then get to go back to what they were doing. It's the same principle as training a dog to let go of something: you give a treat and then give the thing back to them, so they have a win-win.

[ourwully]

Brady's mum - I have Leslie Nelsen's video and it is really good. I have been using it for about a month now but I do everything slow so we are still doing most of the reliable recalls in the house. Its been so cold here, that's my excuse.

 

D'Elle - I think we are on the same track. I have been doing exactly what you are suggesting for a couple of months now and I would say Juno's recall is really good. I have been going by the principle to only call her when I know she will come so that there is no indecision in her mind. Over the last month or so she is better than 99%. The last couple of days I have been stretching it and she has still been 100%.

 

When I started this thread I guess I wasn't very clear because I am fairly happy with the progress of Juno's recall. What I was more interested in was the maturity aspect of things. I didn't word it well because I know dogs mature at different rates but I was really wondering at what age should you expect to have confidence in your dogs abilities. All that said and done, the replies regarding the recall have really made me think and now I will be making subtle changes to our training.

[Root Beer]

Maturity can be a factor in certain behaviors being less than 100% reliable, but I would expect to see that more between 7 - 11 months old than I would at 17 months.

 

At 17 months I would look more to fluency building as the reason why behaviors aren't quite reliable.

[CptJack]

Maturity develops for quite a while, and I wouldn't expect to see TOTALLY mature behavior in pretty much any dog until they're about 2. However, short of some very, very slow maturing breeds I expect near reliability in most dogs by 12-18 months.

 

Which is to say, you can't really look at most year old dogs and say 'this dog isn't mature/is behaving in an immature way', so much as you look back when the dog is 2 or 3 and say 'wow, you've grown up a lot in the last year/two years'. It's pretty subtle in most dogs/breeds after a year or year and some change.

 

Molly's 9 months old and at the height of adolescence. For her that mostly means she's not always very sensible, that she can be impulsive, and that sometimes she pushes at the boundaries that have always been in place and she knows are in place. There's also still just some... puppy behavior in her. That MIGHT mean sometimes she's a tiny bit slow to obey a command (will stop and look at me to see if I mean it, or if she really wants to come off whatever distraction/thing she's doing), but overall she's really pretty danged reliable.

[Liz P]

I was going to say that 30 times a day doesn't seem like much to me. I practice in context for proofing. During a long walk like that I am giving many commands. Don't listen? Back on a leash and you had better obey there. Being perfect on the leash (following all commands)? Okay, we will try you off leash again, but don't obey and you lose your freedom again. The reward for obedience is being off leash. Anything less than perfect and the dog is hooked up again.

[ourwully]

Root Beer and Cpt Jack

Thanks for your honest responses re maturity! Although I have worked hard with Juno I sometimes think that I haven't worked all that efficiently. A couple of factors have played into this. My inexperience is probably the biggest factor and the weather. Last year we got Juno during the ice storm and other than puppy classes, walking outside with any hope of training was very difficult due to the ice. It wasn't until late spring that we could actually walk side by side. Fortunately, I have had a lot of help from members on this forum and the book Control Unleashed. Overall, I am really happy with Juno. She is a wonderful dog and has no real bad habits. She is better behaved than many of the dogs we meet and she is good with our two cats. She is a pleasure to be with every day and she never fails to bring a smile to my face. Had circumstances been different I am sure her training would have been faster but I am not in that much of a rush so all is well. The training journey has been a lot of fun and we still have a long way to go.

 

Liz

I was searching for the words " in context". That is how I would describe my recall training and after checking on myself the last few days I have to agree that 30 recalls of one sort or another doesn't seem that much. Nevertheless I can still make them more varied and exciting.

 

Thanks again

Bill