ourwully Posted March 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 I just returned from my morning walk and I have been incorporating some of the suggestions. After I let Juno off I waited longer than usual and let her get further away before calling. She came directly back. Then later on I hid behind a tree and called her. She really shot back that time. She really looked excited. Another time I hid a stick behind my back and called her. Again, she really rushed back. I made her sit and wait and then gave her the stick. She ran off with it like she had just stolen the king's ransom. The best recall, however, was from about 150 yards, where she was looking at another dog further down the trail. Again she came rushing back. So my conclusion is that the variety and excitement has made a big improvement already, or that this was just a particularly good day. We'll see later today on our afternoon walk. Thanks Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligande Posted March 7, 2015 Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 Rievaulx had a pretty good recall when he was Junos age, but it was not close to 100% when he got over excited when we were out for a long walk. Sometime after he turned 2, it all came together and he has a really great recall now, I think it was a combination of his early training and maturity. We practise still on every walk, to him it is just a game we play, I don't use a reward, just lots of praise, and being obvious that I am happy to see him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Orr Posted March 7, 2015 Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 I think I MAY see Tea's confusion. (as I had it too while reading the helpful suggestions) I'll bet Tea and I think that the "reward" for the BC is the work itself. We've seen that concept with the herding dogs we work or trial with who have been selected because of their inherited skill to gather livestock AND please humans. The work ethic and instinct is what makes it possible to do work out of sight and half a mile from the human. No toy or treat reward is necessary. The work itself is "fun". Consider this possibility for the non-herding BC. You'll like it, if you can get your mind around it. I've had BCs that wouldn't give a hoot if it was cookie time or any other treat; but take them to stock and they would work themselves to death (literally) for you. They would only take the treat to please me I think. B If you have a BC that has this work ethic passed down from some herding ancestor, why not take advantage of it? If you have a wonderful BC that does not have it, then you'll still be able to train it with more non-intrinsic reward methods just like you would any non-working breed. It seems to get down to no one-size fits all. Read the dog before you read the advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted March 7, 2015 Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 I'll bet Tea and I think that the "reward" for the BC is the work itself. We've seen that concept with the herding dogs we work or trial with who have been selected because of their inherited skill to gather livestock AND please humans. The work ethic and instinct is what makes it possible to do work out of sight and half a mile from the human. No toy or treat reward is necessary. The work itself is "fun". Consider this possibility for the non-herding BC. You'll like it, if you can get your mind around it. I'm interested in seeing where you would go next in a completely different situation . . . Outside of a context where sheep are in the picture (let's say they never have been and never will be), what would you consider to be "the work" for the purpose of training recalls? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptJack Posted March 7, 2015 Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 I sort of get this, too, to be honest. sort of. without sheep. Okay, I sort of get HALF of this. The very, very first way I trained recall with Molly and what sitll works 200% today isn't about work, at all, but is about this desire to please humans. And that's from the time she was tiny if I called her and she didn't come to me, I'd shrug, say 'Bye' and turn and leave. To this day, and granted she's only 9 months, if her head is up her butt for some reason and I tell her 'bye' she is THERE. Removal of attention and involvement can be powerful. I didn't mention it here because to me it's not really part of *recall* training, but it is, in a way, a pretty innate thing that you can take advantage of and sometimes, if your daily life is right, without really thinking about or making an effort to. "Real life consequences" basically, with or without stock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted March 7, 2015 Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 LOL!! Most of my dogs, if I turn and say "bye", they're like, "OK, we get to hang out for a while until she gets back". They either hang out in the yard or wait at the door. I do sometimes go in the house while they are out for a little bit. Definitely not a motivator for any of them to recall more reliably. (Just as my dogs would never read leaving the ring during an Agility run as the "walk of shame" - we leave the ring every time we go into it . . . all it means is that we are finished). I would say that part of my recall training does involve natural, everyday, "let's go" kind of communication. Really handy with a group of dogs because the newbie will usually follow the group. Tessa's first recall cue was "Dean that'll do!" To this day every dog I own will run to the door when I call "Dean Dog". They all follow him. But . . . that's at home in the yard, in everyday circumstances. If I want a recall that is going to be reliable when a rabbit is running by, or a deer in the woods, or a horse and buggy, or in an exciting and interesting and different place, I definitely need to train for it deliberately with some meaningful reinforcers to get the message of what a recall means - always - across.That's where I'm interested in what Bill Orr, or Tea, would suggest in place of sheep, to build that kind of reliability. I've had great success using food and toys to build that level of recall, but I am always interested in expanding my repertoire of high value reinforcers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptJack Posted March 7, 2015 Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 I think a lot just varies by dog? I mean my recall training is based a LOT on toys, food and play, but I also involve a lot of 'you're not paying attention to me? Fine. I'm GONE'. I have literally HIDDEN from my dogs when they check out on walks or hikes. Now, absolutely and again, this isn't the only component, but. I literally recalled Molly off a flock of random stray chickens we found in the woods today, at 9 months old and had her try and turn mid=air to get back to me. she's 9 months old. I've called her off rabbits and squirrels and ducks before, and some of those were at 4-5-6 months old, and still gotten that level of reliability. I *can not* yet call her off strange dogs if she's started to react, but that's really it. so for me, 'practiced insecurity' (It's actually a training method) is part of the equation. Kind of an extension, really, of you're not bringing the ball back? The game is over. I say bye, the dogs are all on my ankles faster than you can bat an eyelash and that's not just at home. At home that just means 'go to the door' and they usually beat me there (they know where I'm going) but out and about, in the woods or parks or lakes or parks or whatever. But I'm pretty curious about how stock people see this too, because I'm not one of them, obviously, and I'm also doing all the fun things. And I don't really THINK about this other stuff until something prods me to realize that, yeah, it's part of how I teach my dogs. I guess it doesn't FEEL like teaching to me. (That said, while I'm waiting, it sounds kind of like Premack principal. Maybe. I want to know more too because I'm all interested and curious now.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ourwully Posted March 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 Root Beer I started the four on the floor training today. For the last two weeks I have been trying to teach Juno to Bow. She knows all kinds of tricks and usually learns them quickly but for some reason she just isn't getting Bow. It is probably my timing. So today when we started with the up up and off I wasn't expecting a lot. To my surprise, she was right on it. I'm not saying she has learned it all at once but I can see she is on the right track. In my limited experience, you can sort of tell when they are on track as opposed to trying to figure it out. This is where I should be using my clicker, but that is another story. Anyway, thank you very much for the video. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted March 7, 2015 Report Share Posted March 7, 2015 No problem!! I'm glad you are finding it helpful!! It tends to be a very fun and easy thing for the dog to start to learn. Bow can be difficult. It is one that my dogs rarely learn quickly. I think they have a hard time understanding how it is different from a down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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