male vs female puppies

[sharatk]

Hello All,

 

I started off my search with a female puppy in mind. Now as I talk to people and read more, I think that males are more cuddly and biddable. They say females are smarter(Did I say schemy), more independent and tougher to deal with.

 

For example, I saw that to correct a dog they lifted him by his collar fur and jolted for about 4 seconds. This kind of thing is beyond me, so I would ideally want a dog, where I do not have to resort to such things. I understand that you have to be tough with the dog sometimes and positive reward system doesn't work 100% of the times. But I would like to limit myself to maybe a gentle smack to the hind legs or spraying water at his face.

 

Many of you owned more than a dog. Can you share your experience with dogs in general and border collies in particular.

 

Thanks

[CptJack]

I own 5. 3 girls, 2 boys. I was involved (heavily involved) in rescue and pulled and fostered many, many dogs over more than a decade. Multiple breeds.

Frankly speaking, I see absolutely absolutely NO universal statements that can be made about dogs in general based on gender, independent of individual personalities and breed. There are a lot of people with opinions. Those opinions can be polar opposites based on breed and person doing the talking. I think conformation bias plays a big role in those opinions.

 

You will find people who think males are easier and people who think they're harder, who think boys are hard-headed and more independent and people who thinks girls are. People who think boys are derpy goofs and people who think girls are flakey airheads. You're going to have to look at the individual puppy, the breeding, what you WANT and how that puppy/dog stacks up, and go from there.

My boys vs. girls? Well, one boy is super soft and the other is super hard. One is a big old goofball, one is super serious and stoic. One is friendly with everyone, one is utterly aloof. One is an independent hardhead, one I can't get off my butt. One has a lot of drive, the other has almost none. One melts down if you say no to him, the other wouldn't care if you hit him with a 2X4, he'd smile, wag and not care. There's about that much variation in my girls, too. Granted, they're all different breeds and that makes a difference, but there still aren't universal gender traits that will trump or eradicate breed traits.

 

If you have to resort to hitting your dog, you're doing something wrong. I'm not purely positive. I use corrections sometimes. I have NEVER had to swat a dog to teach it, gently or otherwise, much less jerk them around by their skin.

Frankly I think you'll find doing anything overly harsh to most Border Collies (in particular) will make them shut down. They tend toward being soft dogs. It doesn't take being physically hauled around or hit for them to understand they did bad, and they're (overall) dogs who WANT to work with you. I worked on loose leash walking with my 20 week old today. I forgot treats and used a flat collar. The sole training walk was done (and the lesson learned) with a moderately disapproving "NOPE" and a happy sounding "GOOD!" for 'corrections' and rewards. Some dogs are probably going to require more than that, but you're not really investigating a hard breed here.

[mum24dog]

Focus and hardness should not be confused. If you make the mistake of asking your dog to do something when it is totally focussed on something it will ignore you but it won't be blowing you off, it won't hear you. That applies to all dogs but especially BCs because they are bred for focus.

 

Please don't spray your dog as punishment. You may get an effect you don't want and it shouldn't be necessary.

 

I know many people with multiple dogs and I do generally think that the saying that BC dogs want to be your friend, bitches want to be your Mum is often true. Obviously individual dogs will give the lie to that.

 

One bitch, the rest dogs suits me best.

[Maralynn]

My anecdotal experience with 2 males and 2 females so far - females have beed soft, sensitive and incredibly eager to make me happy. Boys have been focused, gung ho, and a bit goofy. They want me to be happy, too, but their world doesn't fall apart if I'm not. Females have been bossier to my other dogs but not me. Males have been a bit more pushy. Current female is the most cuddly creature ever. I don't smack my dogs or spray them. I use verbal, a collar pop on occassion and body pressure for corrections. Teach them what you want, form a good bond with them and for most things you'll be able to correct them with a "no" to a disaproving growly voice.

[dsmbc]

I agree with folks above. it really depends on individual dogs what their personality is like. I know a lot of people who are only interested in having females and I know some that only want males. many folks think females mature faster, In my limited experience, I tend to believe that too.

 

I know folks that have only had females and love how easy they are to train and get along with, one that now has a male and has found him tougher to train.

 

I have two males and a female. My female is by far the easiest to live with. my youngest male has been the easiest to train. But that is all related to the individual dog, not their gender.

 

Find a litter you really want and pick the pup that most appeals to you or the one that the breeder may feel is the best match for you.

[Liz P]

[waffles]

Who is 'they' that you refer to? Anyone who has to pick up an adult dog by his scruff and shake him as part of their training is not someone I would take advice from. Also, spraying a dog in the face or smacking them should not be apart of a training regimen as it doesn't teach the dog much (besides being afraid of water or your hand). It shows a lack Of education on the humans part.

 

The male vs female thing is really a personal preference. One can't say that males are always this and females always that. I would pick the puppy that best suits you or let the breeder pick.

[5Bordercollies]

The only "they" I know of that pick up dogs by their collars is the Shutzhund trainers with a dog who won't "out". If you're going to treat a BC like a GSD or a Malinois you're most likely going to scare the poor dog witless. BC's through the ages were bred to be biddable dogs, wanting to please and work with the shepherd. Like the others have said male vs female is mostly a personal choice. I too have five, four females, one male. The females are for the most part at least towards me, they can be excuse the pun but bitchy with each other. Zorro is for the most part a teddy bear towards his humans. Can be nippy towards strangers and was a very inclined to grip the goats during his training - but then I knew a lot less of dog body language back then, he turned seven last week. It does depend greatly from dog to dog, litter to litter, their breeding, early socialization, etc. Best you can do is visit as many breeders as you can, meet their dogs, if at all possible, ask if anybody local or nearby has some of their pups that you can meet, that should give you a feel for the dogs available. Talk to breeders, explain what you want and let them help you pick the right pup.

I am not sure what you want to do with the pup - agility, herding, whatever, but I would recommend you pick up a book or two by someone like Pat Miller, look at the Patricia McConnell's "The other end of the leash" blog, Ian Dunbar is also a good place to start. Those people are better role models than for example Koehler, Caesar Milan, etc. Whether or not you want to herd with your pup, Julie Hill's "The Natural Way" is also a good book on how to treat your pup.

[Eileen Stein]

I've had quite a few border collies, both males and females. Based on that experience, I do think that females tend to mature faster than males. Other than that, I've seen no consistent differences between males and females. Neither sex has seemed to me to be significantly more cuddly, biddable, independent, smarter or tougher to deal with. The tentative generalizations I made after my first few dogs have all been blown away by later dogs. I agree with whoever said that confirmation bias plays a big role with people who do generalize.

 

There is one piece of advice I invariably give to new border collie owners, and it is this: Border collies (whatever their sex) are in general more sensitive and responsive than other dogs. They are very attuned to their person, and they respond to subtlety. If your corrections are not working, it's natural to feel that you should escalate, but in fact it's much more likely they are not working because they are already too "strong" rather than because they are too "mild." Therefore, IMO it pays to avoid drill sergeant type commands, harsh corrections, and effusive "throw a party" praise, all of which can be sensory overload to a border collie. Try to think of all your interactions with the dog as building lines of communication, and work to see how subtle you can be in conveying what you want and evoking a response. And pay attention to the effect your body language has -- how just a brief, well-timed movement on your part can often be more effective than a physical correction.

[Shetlander]

Agree with all of the above. These are smart, sensitive, eager to work dogs. Smacking (even gently), spraying with water, shake cans, etc. are pretty crude techniques for any dog, much less Border Collies, IMHO. You can get all kinds of fallout. And just because a truly "hard" dog CAN take a harsh correction, doesn't mean he should NEED to. You want to consider fairness, effectiveness and the quality of your relationship with the dog. My Lhasa is truly tough emotionally and physically, so much that punishment is difficult for him to understand. Positive reinforcement and time out type consequences work great for him, as they do for my more sensitive dogs.

 

As far as sex, it comes down to personal preference. I prefer boys (love the goofy aspect so many of them have), but I like girls fine. Good luck finding your pup.

[Maxi]

I agree with the others, my only additional comment with regard to male vs female would be that an unspayed bitch's personality can significantly change when she comes into season. She may become aggressive towards other unspayed females when previously they got on peaceably(YMMV)

 

Try to think of all your interactions with the dog as building lines of communication, and work to see how subtle you can be in conveying what you want and evoking a response. And pay attention to the effect your body language has -- how just a brief, well-timed movement on your part can often be more effective than a physical correction.

I agree with Eileen that sublety in communication and body language are key. But you also need to learn what your dog is really saying back to you. Communication works in two directions.

With reprimands, from my BCs' perspective, the worst thing I can do is to remove my attention and tell them I don't want them near me.

[sharatk]

Thanks all for sharing your experiences. I think now I will be again inclined towards getting a female.

When I said smack on hind legs, I meant just a little tap or rather touch, which just means owner is unhappy. This by no mean can hurt a dog. It was more to portray the unhappiness of owner than to hurt the dog.

 

The water spray, I have seen a friend of mine do that to his 1 yr old lab to deter her from jumping on tables and counter for food, when everything else failed. It worked well.

 

I get it that they might be counter productive. I will try positive reinforcement and discuss failures in the forum before acting on them.

 

Thanks

[Gloria Atwater]

Hello All,

 

I started off my search with a female puppy in mind. Now as I talk to people and read more, I think that males are more cuddly and biddable. They say females are smarter(Did I say schemy), more independent and tougher to deal with.

 

For example, I saw that to correct a dog they lifted him by his collar fur and jolted for about 4 seconds. This kind of thing is beyond me, so I would ideally want a dog, where I do not have to resort to such things. I understand that you have to be tough with the dog sometimes and positive reward system doesn't work 100% of the times. But I would like to limit myself to maybe a gentle smack to the hind legs or spraying water at his face.

 

Many of you owned more than a dog. Can you share your experience with dogs in general and border collies in particular.

 

Thanks

 

 

A lot has already been said here, so I'll just add my two cents, for what it's worth.

 

Bottom line is, each puppy is an individual. Sure, there are some generalities that can tend to hold true - females mature faster than males - but they are far from absolute. My boy was all grownup in his mind by the time he was 1 year old, where his younger sister, same way bred but a year+ younger, was scatter-brained, easily upset and silly until she was over 2. You just don't know.

 

My male is intensely loyal to me, would rather lay at my feet than anything else, but he does NOT like to be hugged and is very uncomfortable with invasion of his personal space. He'd rather I pet his forehead and rub his chest, than ever try to snuggle. The girl is also very loving - when she can stop moving for a moment - and she loves cuddles but only for a few seconds, then she has to go. But she's not independent and just wants to do whatever everyone else is doing.

 

Now, my Aussie female, on the other hand, is independent as a hog on ice, but with her, I think with her it's breed thing.

 

I've had independent females, aloof females, sweet cuddly females and silly females. My old boy, Jesse, turned to butter when hugged or petted while Nick, as I said, finds cuddles alarming. You just can't generalize.

 

Anybody who is picking their dog up by the collar and shaking them for 4 seconds isn't someone I'd want handling or training my dogs. They need to learn how to train their dogs - or try a different breed. We've had 4 male dogs over 15 years, 2 neutered and 2 intact, and if I ever grabbed and shook any of them, they'd have been traumatized for days afterwards.

 

Bottom line, I don't think gender really matters in a puppy. What matters is the individual's temperament and your knowledge in how to train them. If you don't know, learn. Find out. I don't believe in that "positive-only training" stuff, simply because I think it's unreasonable and unnatural to try and raise ANY creature - human or canine - in a world that does not include "NO." NO is a natural part of life. It keeps our hands out of the campfire and our dogs from eating the neighbor's cat.

 

But I sure as hell don't resort to shaking or hitting my dogs. Dogs aren't much different from children in that both need to learn limits and boundaries in order to keep them safe and help them grow up to be reasonable citizens of their world. That's all it really is: limits and boundaries. Yes, you can do this. No, you can't do that. All that garbage about grabbing and shaking dogs, or "alpha-rolling" them onto their backs for a correction is nonsense and frankly counter-productive. It can even be dangerous if the dog is made afraid and starts lashing back.

 

You can tell a puppy, "No, you can't chew my shoes." But you don't want to tell him he can't chew. You just tell him, "Here, you are allowed to chew this toy or bone."

You can tell a puppy, "Woops, don't pee in the house." But you don't want to tell him he can't pee. You just tell him, "Here, the place to pee is out here in this area."

 

It's not rocket science. It's mainly common sense. But one has to be careful to find a balance between the outmoded, force-and-fear methods vs a positively-only approach that doesn't permit the occasional reprimand.

 

Gender doesn't figure into any of that. Boy pups and girl pups are equally fun and equally nice to have. There are more differences in the temperaments of individuals, I think, than there are between male vs female.

 

And don't think only boys pee on stuff. We had a spayed female who, for all her life, would back up and pee-mark just like a guy.

 

~ Gloria

[nancy]

OK, my embarrassed take on male versus female dogs. I feel embarrassed giving a tummy rub to a male dog. Sorry, I'm an old lady (68 this week) and, although I do give tummy rubs to male dogs, I just feel way more comfortable doing it with the females.

[geonni banner]

OK, my embarrassed take on male versus female dogs. I feel embarrassed giving a tummy rub to a male dog. Sorry, I'm an old lady (68 this week) and, although I do give tummy rubs to male dogs, I just feel way more comfortable doing it with the females.

Yeah, me too. And I'm only 62.

 

I have not had the experience with Border Collies that many here have, but they are a couple of things that I've found to be true across many breeds.

 

In my personal experience males tend to be goofier than females.

 

If they are protective at all, the males seem to want to defend property (as in a yard, house, etc.) females seem more protective of people or other animals, and more vocal about it.

 

I've experienced that when males fight, they tend to make a lot of noise and not shed too much blood. Females on the other hand fight to win and do damage.

 

The other thing is about peeing. Since girls squat to pee, and generally empty their bladders, they are harder on lawns - and can create dead spots where they've peed. Boys in general pee a little here, a little there, whether they lift their legs or squat. But females sometimes lift legs too, though the morning pee is usually one spot and copious.

 

All that said, I prefer females, as they seem to me to be no-nonsense and not effusively friendly to everyone and everything. I like an independent dog. And I've known more females that way than males.

 

I'm not claiming that these traits are consistent. But they do seem to occur more often than not. YMMV

[Maralynn]

Kolt relaxes in my lap - all stretched out and belly up

 

When I said smack on hind legs, I meant just a little tap or rather touch, which just means owner is unhappy. This by no mean can hurt a dog. It was more to portray the unhappiness of owner than to hurt the dog.

 

I don't want my dogs to be so sensitive that light tap does anything more than interrupt them. IMO, touching them shouldn't be something that is easily taken as a negative thing. If they're not paying attention or eating too rambunctious then calmly but firmly leading them away and putting them in a "time out" so to speak really helps get the message across.

[nancy]

Our first dog, Vamp, left circles of dead grass where she peed. Fergie never did - in 16 years. And Dixie hasn't in two. I think it has more to do with the food than with the peeing position.

Vamp ate cheap kibble and some cheap canned food. Hey, we were young and poor, with one, then two, then three kids and one, then two cats.

 

With Fergie, and now Dixie, we are old, much better off - paid of the house and all the kids and retired - and have one cat. So the food is high-quality grain-free kibble and a bit of brand-name canned food.

Then again, I have decided that grass is over-rated and an exotic invasive species. Ground cover, moss, pine needles....and all the trees that will grow are our yard. You can't see much of our house from the street. Or from any neighboring house. And We barely have to mow - and never rake!

[geonni banner]

Our first dog, Vamp, left circles of dead grass where she peed. Fergie never did - in 16 years. And Dixie hasn't in two. I think it has more to do with the food than with the peeing position.

 

Vamp ate cheap kibble and some cheap canned food. Hey, we were young and poor, with one, then two, then three kids and one, then two cats.

My dog Sugarfoot eats TOTW kibble and raw meat, and she kills grass dead in one shot. Fortunately I don't have much grass, and it's all volunteer. Your right about grass. It's over-rated and a waste of water in my dought-stricken area.

[Maralynn]

Kolt and Kenzi eat the same food. His pee kills grass, hers does not.

[mum24dog]

It has to be dry for a long time before we get any pee patches on the grass. Could be any of them causing it if it happens.

 

The grass isn't dead though, only sleeping. A couple of days rain and it's green again.

[GentleLake]

I have decided that grass is over-rated and an exotic invasive species.

 

Amen on that! lawns are a PITA. Not worth the time, effort and expense.

 

Now, If i could just convince the local authorities that I'm creating valuable wildlife habitat so they'd leave me alone. . . .

[Kelleybean]

The water spray, I have seen a friend of mine do that to his 1 yr old lab to deter her from jumping on tables and counter for food, when everything else failed. It worked well.

 

Training a lab is totally different than a BC. Labs are notoriously hard-headed and BC's tend to be sensitive. I don't think that you'll need to spray a BC. Mine would fall to pieces over that! With my girl a simple "uh-oh" with my hands on my hips is enough to send a message.

[Gideon's girl]

HaHaHa!!! Here we call lawn pasture and put the horses and goats on it. Of course, I've found them on the porch many times.

 

I love having multiple dogs, but I don't love having multiple bitches. I find that males are more likely to get along than females.

[nancy]

I'd be willing to have "pasture" if I could bring home a pair of Swaledale lamb twins some spring. One end mows, and the other fertilizes. Have to be able to convince Animal Control that all "Yorkshire Wool Dogs look like that - horns and all.

Until then, it's trees, ground cover, moss, and "stuff".

[mum24dog]

 

Amen on that! lawns are a PITA. Not worth the time, effort and expense.

 

Now, If i could just convince the local authorities that I'm creating valuable wildlife habitat so they'd leave me alone. . . .

 

What do the local authorities have to do with your lawn? Just curious.