Young pup gait - rear "skip"

[mickif]

Hi, I am looking for imput regarding the way my pup switches rear leg gait.I am not saying it right . Figured this is a good place to ask! Hopefully this video will work, if need be I can upload it to youtube. I have slowed it down by half. I included the "running" part so that you can see her, well, running. It is when she returns to me that she tends to do some weird rear end adjustment, a hop. The very last one on the video shows the extreme. Have any of you noticed this with any of your dogs? She is 8 months old. I rarely see it other times, occasionally there will be a rear lead change, but I see it very often when we are playing "run fast across a board". Just curious, as I tend to worry too much about my dogs. She is never lame, nor are there any other symptoms that make me "wonder".

 

thanks!

 

Edited: Video didn't upload, trying plan B.

 

[GentleLake]

I'm not seeing a video . . . .

[airbear]

Mine hitches like that. He is dysplastic in one hip. Have you had her x-rayed? I would have her hips and knees examined, to start.

[Camden's Mom]

I was going to say the same thing as airbear. I kept noticing a "hitch" like this in my boy's back right leg. It always seemed to me to be more obvious as he was slowing down from a fast run or when he was about to make a turn. A few moths ago I finally had X rays done and found out he was dysplastic in both hips, worse in the right then the left.

 

For whatever it's worth the orthopedic specialist, after a thorough physical exam and gait observation, said there wasn't even a need to do the X rays. I insisted he do them anyway (I was sick of worrying and second guessing Camden's gait) and that's when we found the HD.

 

If you feel like something looks off have X rays done. Even if only for piece of mind.

[Gideon's girl]

Same here, right hip. Do the xray. It's better to know one way or another.

[GentleLake]

I agree. The x-ray will tell you if there's cause for concern.

 

Some border collies do have wonky gaits when their hips are OK, but best to find out for sure, imo, in case you need to make any adjustments in activities, supplements, etc.

[airbear]

BTW, a diagnosis of HD doesn't mean that your dog's performance career is over. Depending on the severity of the defect, you might be able to train and compete at a high level. As I said, my dog was diagnosed at the age of 2 with HD in one hip (diagnosed via Penn Hip - the bad hip has a distraction index of 0.67, with mild signs of degenerative joint disease). He is now almost 7, and his hip x-ray from this past Christmas looks the same as his x-ray from when he was 2 - in other words, there has been no progression of the degenerative joint disease, aka arthritis.

 

He is a very active dog, competing in both herding and agility. He runs in Open in herding, and Masters in agility, and often competes consecutive weekends. Ironically, he is the soundest dog I've ever owned, never coming up lame or sore, and is as fast on the last run of the weekend as the first.

 

From a preventative point of view, I give him 4000 mg of salmon oil a day and sometimes coconut oil if I have some lying around. I would say that I keep him lean, but the truth is, he doesn't gain weight. We sometimes do some balance ball work to keep his core in shape, but I'd be lying if I said we did that regularly.

 

I suppose I could have put him on the couch and not done any dog sports with him once he was diagnosed. His vet did say that he probably wouldn't hold up to a lot of training. Still, I figured if he was going to break, he would do it as easily being a pet dog as a sporter collie, and I would deal with it when/if that day came.

[mickif]

Thanks everyone (kinda, sorta ), I actually was thinking it might be the knee. I usually wait until I think the growth plates are closed to Xray my dogs, but guess she will get hers done a little earlier.

 

I was really hoping that I would hear that some dogs just do this skip thing, sometimes her body seems disjointed between her rear and front anyway, denial can be a wonderful thing .

 

Kristi, thanks for the support regarding competing, and explaining about your dog. My main concern is any discomfort. I can not imagine her being happy being a couch potato . By default she gets fish oil (tho not 4000mg.) and coconut oil already.

[airbear]

It absolutely could be the knee - I originally thought Rex had a luxating patella. And you're right, she is fairly young, but if she were mine, I'd x-ray her. There are more dysplastic dogs competing than you'd think, both in agility and, um, other sports. You're completely right in not wanting her to be uncomfortable, but until you know what you're dealing with (knee? hips? growing pains?), then it's difficult to chart a course of action.

 

Here's a little video from last year, when Rex competed three consecutive weekends. The first, he was on the winning DAM team and earned a Steeplechase bye at the NW Regionals. The second weekend, he was at a sheepdog trial where he ran four times (cross-entered in Pro Novice and Open). Then the third weekend, he competed in the BC & Yukon AAC Regionals, where he qualified for Nationals. Like I said, his last run of that third weekend was just as zippy as his first. Oh, and the weekend after that, we went to my friend's 180 acre farm and worked on big outruns.

 

[mickif]

Great video! What a guy ! Thank you for sharing it. I assume you will be going to Nationals in Oct.? I am super envious of your Northwest fields and forests .

 

Well, as they say, it is what it is... we shall see about G's "skip".

 

Thank you again.

[airbear]

... I assume you will be going to Nationals in Oct.?

Yup! He's got everything except that second GP, but we have 3 more shots at it at least <stares sternly at dog>. Either way, we're going. We've already booked our hotel room.

 

Well, as they say, it is what it is... we shall see about G's "skip".

I agree. I was sad, then I was pissed, then I became philosophical. The dog remained cheerful and silly as I ran through these emotions. You'll do right by her, don't you worry. Oh, and good luck with the RDW! We had a blast training it!

[mickif]

I will try to find you amongst the masses at nationals, I will be flying in for it sadly without a dog. And yeah, if in fact there is an issue, I will be going through the same emotional roller coaster.

 

RDW... Sure is fun, not sure how far we're getting , but hey she's a baby dog!

[mum24dog]

I'd rather it was hips than knees myself. Keeping a dog active and well muscled can counteract the effects of HD in most dogs but knees would always be a bit of a worry to me, even after surgery.

 

I agree with airbear that there are a lot of competing dysplastic dogs and often it is only discovered when investigations are carried out for something else. There must be many more handlers who may never be aware of it.

 

Our collie has been competing for 6 1/2 years and for the first 6 of those never had so much as a slight limp. When he wasn't putting full weight on one hind leg last year we had x rays done and he was found to have mild HD. A couple of months ago there was a different issue with the other hind leg so, knowing that he has HD, I got him referred straight away to the specialist.

 

Result - hips probably not causing pain, stifles, hocks and lower spine OK. (MRI scan didn't seem justified in the circumstances.) Given the go ahead, even encouraged, to carry on as normal and after 2 months out of agility and only 1 full training session he competed both days last weekend and reached the final of a Champ class (different from yours) coming 7th out of a class of 127 top grade dogs only 1.5 secs behind the winner without being pushed to turn too tightly and not back to peak fitness yet.

 

Although no obvious reason for his lameness was found and it has cleared up with AIs and rest it was still money well spent since we know what we are dealing with. He may have flare ups in the future but we know not to panic.

 

Just more words of encouragement if that's what it turns out to be, which it may not of course.

[rufftie]

it probably is a good idea to get him looked at if you're worried....BUT i'll speak from another side. my boy hobbes also has a weird step sometimes when playing. generally when he was slowing down or changing directions. I had gotten him when he was 2.5 y.o. so I wasn't familiar with his beginnings. his breeder had him for about 6 mons when he was "in between" homes. when I called to ask him about it, he was unconcerned. I put it down to his being fairly long legged and being a goober who couldn't figure out where his back feet were all the time. I also enjoyed his weirdness. as I watched him play this morning, he didn't do it at all. I think he may be growing out of it, so to speak. that he has figured out how to work those back things better! i'll keep my eye on him and his hips, but I think it just took 3 years+ to grow into his legs.

[mickif]

I'd rather it was hips than knees myself. Keeping a dog active and well muscled can counteract the effects of HD in most dogs but knees would always be a bit of a worry to me, even after surgery.

Yes, if it has to be a choice between hips and knees, I would much prefer it be hips also!

 

And thanks for sharing the story of your collie and for your encouragement. I'm tellin' ya, I spend way more $$ on dog health issues/diagnostics then I do for myself

 

it probably is a good idea to get him looked at if you're worried....BUT i'll speak from another side. my boy hobbes also has a weird step sometimes when playing. generally when he was slowing down or changing directions..

 

I think he may be growing out of it, so to speak. that he has figured out how to work those back things better! i'll keep my eye on him and his hips, but I think it just took 3 years+ to grow into his legs.

 

Thanks! Now this is what I wanted to hear , I do sometimes think the "hitch" is because, well, her back end seems higher and rear legs seem longer. I will know soon enough.

 

Thank you everyone.

[Gideon's girl]

Dogs that are "downhill," higher in the rear than in the front, also sometimes do funny skips and things when they are working out what to do with their legs.

[neo416]

Another question for those of you who seem to be knowledgeable about strange gaits:

 

Is it strange to have a dog that runs like a deer? My approx. 15 month old BC does this and he is really, really tall and lanky. He has terrible recall and a desire to roam so he can only be off leash in fenced in areas. So I’m also thinking it may be due to not having enough room to reach his top speed. I also think it may just match his goofy personality.

 

Any thoughts?

[rushdoggie]

FWIW, mine did that weird gait and his hips and knees x rayed as perfect, his knees seemed sound. He turned out to have an iliopsoas issue. Unfortunately because no one could figure out why he was like that it went on for months before it was correctly diagnosed and now he has scar tissue.

 

He still skips a lot. As part of his rehab I had to teach him how to trot and flex his rear legs individually.

 

I wish I would have worked harder at looking into it as I might have prevented him having chronic pain and stiffness from scar tissue.

[sandysfarm]

It absolutely could be the knee - I originally thought Rex had a luxating patella. And you're right, she is fairly young, but if she were mine, I'd x-ray her. There are more dysplastic dogs competing than you'd think, both in agility and, um, other sports. You're completely right in not wanting her to be uncomfortable, but until you know what you're dealing with (knee? hips? growing pains?), then it's difficult to chart a course of action.

 

Here's a little video from last year, when Rex competed three consecutive weekends. The first, he was on the winning DAM team and earned a Steeplechase bye at the NW Regionals. The second weekend, he was at a sheepdog trial where he ran four times (cross-entered in Pro Novice and Open). Then the third weekend, he competed in the BC & Yukon AAC Regionals, where he qualified for Nationals. Like I said, his last run of that third weekend was just as zippy as his first. Oh, and the weekend after that, we went to my friend's 180 acre farm and worked on big outruns.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Beautiful video! But as a casual observer, I notice your dog's back end looks like it's compensating for sure.

[mum24dog]

Beautiful video! But as a casual observer, I notice your dog's back end looks like it's compensating for sure.

 

 

That was my impression too but I notice that jumping style quite a lot in US videos and wasn't sure whether it was a common training / jump height / course design issue. Maybe the Q system rather than a win out system can lead to a different jumping style in some dogs because speed isn't always vital?

 

When our dog started to lose fluency in jumping and didn't extend as he used to last year we took him to the vet, but that's a dog that has always jumped very long. If a dog has always had a tucked style it might mean nothing.

[Sekah]

That was my impression too but I notice that jumping style quite a lot in US videos and wasn't sure whether it was a common training / jump height / course design issue. Maybe the Q system rather than a win out system can lead to a different jumping style in some dogs because speed isn't always vital?

I don't think it has anything to do with the Q system or course design. The dog does look like he's compensating a bit while running - like he's using his back legs in unison rather than, well, not.

 

That said, congrats on keeping your boy fit and active.

[mum24dog]

I don't think it has anything to do with the Q system or course design. The dog does look like he's compensating a bit while running - like he's using his back legs in unison rather than, well, not.

 

That said, congrats on keeping your boy fit and active.

 

 

I think you're probably right. If someone joins our classes whose dog still does that after I initial training we usually suggest that they get it checked out but airbear already knows that her dog has a degree of HD.

[airbear]

That was my impression too but I notice that jumping style quite a lot in US videos and wasn't sure whether it was a common training / jump height / course design issue. Maybe the Q system rather than a win out system can lead to a different jumping style in some dogs because speed isn't always vital?

Seriously? In a thread about dogs that hitch, and after I explained my dog is dysplastic in one hip, you still manage to mention that you have a win-out system in Britain? FFS! Maybe we should be breeding dogs that can't extend so that we can go slowly and carefully around the course and Q.

 

I don't think it has anything to do with the Q system or course design. The dog does look like he's compensating a bit while running - like he's using his back legs in unison rather than, well, not.

Yup, he runs with his back legs together. Also, you rarely will see those back legs extend over a jump. Training a running dogwalk was interesting because the method I was using dictated that your dog stride through the yellow in with back legs in full extension. Well, that never was going to happen with Skippy (one of Rex's many nicknames), so we adjusted our criteria accordingly.

 

This is his typical flight pattern over a jump. He takes very few bars, but also rarely bounces a line of jumps.

[mum24dog]

Seriously? In a thread about dogs that hitch, and after I explained my dog is dysplastic in one hip, you still manage to mention that you have a win-out system in Britain? FFS! Maybe we should be breeding dogs that can't extend so that we can go slowly and carefully around the course and Q.

 

 

I was merely wondering whether there might be another explanation for his lack of extension other than his HD, especially as your earlier posts indicated that you were happy with his fitness. It isn't inevitable that a dog with HD won't be able to extend fully. I won't bother if comparing other systems and how training may be influenced by the system it is aimed at is a touchy subject and just assume it is the HD in his case and that other dogs I see on video doing the same are similarly affected if you prefer.

 

 

 

 

Yup, he runs with his back legs together. Also, you rarely will see those back legs extend over a jump. Training a running dogwalk was interesting because the method I was using dictated that your dog stride through the yellow in with back legs in full extension. Well, that never was going to happen with Skippy (one of Rex's many nicknames), so we adjusted our criteria accordingly.

 

This is his typical flight pattern over a jump. He takes very few bars, but also rarely bounces a line of jumps.

 

 

 

Do you think that having only one hip affected may have made it more difficult for him to use his hind legs independently than if both were affected more or less equally?

[juliepoudrier]

I don't do agility, but for my friends who do, speed seems quite important, so I'm guessing that the implication that a Q system somehow rewards slow, careful circumnavigation of an agility course is what irks folks. YMMV.

 

FWIW, I had a dysplastic (both hips) open level (successful) sheepdog trial dog and one never would have known by looming at her move, at least not until she was older ~12 and no longer as fit/muscled as she once was), so I also wouldn't automatically assume that a dog's extension or flexion (or lack thereof) is indicstive of a structural issue. At least for tight/twisty courses, extreme extension could be a liability. Consider open jumper horses at high fences: they speed between jumps, but don't make long leaps at speed over jumps unless it's a particularly wide jump, ISTM.

 

J.