Scavenging For Food On Walks

[Camden's Mom]

I didn't want to hijack the off leash thread, but a comment brought up a question I have about my dog scavenging while on walks.

 

This is a quote from Sekah from the other thread: The biggest thing that I wished that I'd worked on more was her choosing not to run after the smell of food. As a pup she was able to find a couple delicious discarded sandwiches in the park and due to the sporadic and jackpot nature of that kind of reinforcement, she's always on the lookout for food. Now I can call her off a scent, but I had some really frustrating moments when she was younger that I wished hadn't happened. If I could do it all over again, I would proof behaviours around groundfood constantly.

 

I walk my dog (on leash) in a lot of public parks and it is astounding to me how much food people leave on the ground. Camden has gotten a full chicken wing, an entire piece of pizza, sandwiches, cupcakes, you name it. I'm not talking about a few crumbs... I'm talking about BIG rewards. It's felt like a losing battle, so unless he puts something in his mouth that is dangerous (like the whole snicker's bar he found one time ) I just let it go. Obviously if I see something ahead of time I steer clear of it, but my guy will scavenge for the entire walk and it's not uncommon for him to find something to gobble up. Strangely, he's way better about this off leash as he's far more interested in running and playing. I guess a slow walk is dull enough that he passes the time by looking for food?

 

So, my questions: 1) Do you permit scavenging for food on walks? 2) If you do NOT permit it, how have you trained the dog to leave the food on the ground?

 

[Liz P]

Not allowed. Too worried about them getting sick or even poisoned. My dogs have a drop it command, which means spit out whatever is in your mouth right this instant.

[Tommy Coyote]

Isn't it in SF where someone keeps putting out poisoned meatballs along the dog walking trails.

 

Not safe to eat anything but what you give them to eat.

[Liz P]

PS, I also have a leave it command, which means get away from whatever it is you are investigating.

[Camden's Mom]

We've got "drop it" and "leave it" as well. These are both pretty well proofed except for in these "jackpot" food situations. Let's face it, even if the treats in my pocket are homemade salmon and cheese squares, they are not going to be a higher reward then a whole cupcake.

 

His "leave it" is pretty reliable and, since he is on leash, if he does hesitate I can correct him.

 

"Drop it" is a different story. Once the item is in his mouth my "drop it" cue becomes "I have to swallow this as fast as I can before mom takes it from me". Not good...

 

Now, my guy *loves* food and we're also keeping him slightly underweight right now, so this is a tough situation. Any suggestions for training a reliable "drop it" when the food you are asking the dog to drop is a higher reward then anything you could offer in the moment? I'd appreciate any suggestions.

 

 

 

Isn't it in SF where someone keeps putting out poisoned meatballs along the dog walking trails.

 

Not safe to eat anything but what you give them to eat.

 

wtf is wrong with people...

[OurBoys]

It's been a while since we've taken the dogs for a walk/hike but they've never been allowed to scavenge for a number of reasons....I don't trust most strangers, I don't trust my dogs to not pester somebody if they think they have food (not everybody likes dogs plus I don't expect people who do to put up with it), I'm not going to take the chance of them getting something that might not agree with them and I don't want my dogs thinking a walk/hike is for foraging. Liz gave you a couple of great commands that really do come in handy.

 

Also, there are some evil people out there.

 

http://www.pisgahareasorbs.org/2014/03/probe-under-way-in-asheville-area-pet-poisoningin-bent-creek/

[JohnLloydJones]

So, my questions: 1) Do you permit scavenging for food on walks? 2) If you do NOT permit it, how have you trained the dog to leave the food on the ground?

1) No

2) I use the "Leave it" command.

 

That having been said, every new foster that comes in takes a while to learn to drop things. Only this Sunday, we encountered several "yummy" things on our morning walk (note we are early birds, so it is still dark and hard for me to see what they find.) I manged to get my foster boy, Coal, to drop some wrapping paper, a fast food bag and some un-identified object. Good score, but not good enough. Mid morning he threw up on the kitchen floor and, before he scarfed it up again, I picked out a wad of paper (paper napkin, probably) and a well chewed single serving butter container. I'm guessing the latter wasn't sitting well and was the cause of his throwing up.

 

On the other hand, ex-foster Pacco once "caught" a whole cucumber on our morning walk and we all waited while he placed it between his paws and ate every last bit of it.

[GentleLake]

I'd be wary of what they might find on the ground, too. You never know what people are eating and discarding.

 

Recently a resident at one of the nursing homes I visit was begging to give Bodhi what looked like a turkey sandwich she didn't want. I finally caved and let her give him just the meat. There weren't any condiments on the sandwich, just meat and bread. He intensely licked his lips and the inside of his mouth for a good half hour after eating it and drank a ton of water (he's a raw fed dog and doesn't normally drink a lot of water).

 

I don't know what kind of crap they were feeding their resident, but I'll never let anyone feed him anything from there again.

 

A leave it cue is a great thing to have. After reading this, I'll also be working on a drop it cue. Thanks for the suggestion.

[Sekah]

I think once you have to cue a "leave it" or a "drop it" it's too late. I would rather the dog leave things alone implicitly without my input. Susan Garrett's Its Yer Choice really helps here.

With my girl, punishment was thoroughly ineffective. I've had to ensure that rewards are plentiful for good behaviour and I've had to keep an eagle eye out for possible goodies on the road or in a park. Though, as I said in the text quoted in the OP, when Cohen was younger she got more than a few jackpots while out on walks. As a result, I've felt that I've been fighting an uphill battle with her scavenging. If I'd been a more competent and forward-thinking trainer when she was younger I'd have worked harder to implement a "food from my hand only when outside" rule. She's so intensely food motivated that it's presented itself as a double-edged sword.

[Camden's Mom]

All of this is very appreciated and I know I'll be fighting an uphill battle changing this behavior. He's had so many successes at this point with his foraging that I'm going to have a LOT of bad habit to "undo".

 

But, I'm still trying to figure out how I would get him to spit out food that is already in his mouth. His "leave it" is pretty darn good... His "drop it" is very good so long as the item in his mouth is not food. IOW he will drop toys, sticks, balls, even items with food substance on it (like a food wrapper), etc.

 

The biggest hurdle I foresee is once he has a piece of food in his mouth. He swallows it down practically before I even notice he's found it... any suggestions on how to tackle this, specifically?

 

As for the stories you all have been sharing about dog poisoning... I just don't understand. It honestly never, ever occurred to me that someone might go out and drop poisoned food on a trail to kill animals. It's beyond me, but now that I know it happens (repeatedly?!?) I feel even more compelled to curb his scavenging behavior.

[Camden's Mom]

 

I think once you have to cue a "leave it" or a "drop it" it's too late. I would rather the dog leave things alone implicitly without my input. Susan Garrett's Its Yer Choice really helps here.

With my girl, punishment was thoroughly ineffective. I've had to ensure that rewards are plentiful for good behaviour and I've had to keep an eagle eye out for possible goodies on the road or in a park. Though, as I said in the text quoted in the OP, when Cohen was younger she got more than a few jackpots while out on walks. As a result, I've felt that I've been fighting an uphill battle with her scavenging. If I'd been a more competent and forward-thinking trainer when she was younger I'd have worked harder to implement a "food from my hand only when outside" rule. She's so intensely food motivated that it's presented itself as a double-edged sword.

 

Sekah, you posted while I was writing my last response. Thank you for the"It's Yer Choice" recommendation, I will be sure to check that out. Sounds like we have similar beasts, lol. Punishment or a harsh word does nothing to deter my boy. All it's done is encouraged him to gobble up whatever treasure he's found so quickly that I don't stand a chance at stopping him. Frustrating and, yes, I foresee an uphill battle as my guy has gotten a fair share of jackpots. I'm really amazed at how much discarded food is just laying around parks...

 

I will check out the article and see if there are some ideas I can begin implementing right away. Thank you!

[GentleLake]

But, I'm still trying to figure out how I would get him to spit out food that is already in his mouth. His "leave it" is pretty darn good... His "drop it" is very good so long as the item in his mouth is not food. IOW he will drop toys, sticks, balls, even items with food substance on it (like a food wrapper), etc.

 

The biggest hurdle I foresee is once he has a piece of food in his mouth. He swallows it down practically before I even notice he's found it... any suggestions on how to tackle this, specifically?

 

I've got the same issue here with one dog, So I'm eagerly awaiting suggestions for this also.

[simba]

Haven't tried this myself, but one old trick is to overcook/badly cook a large piece of cheap meat, and have a different better meat available (liver was suggested, but they pretty much said anything smelly and delicious.) Have it big and tough enough that the dog can't swallow it or chew bits off it quickly. Then swap it for the better meat. I think you give him the tough meat again afterwards, not sure.

[alligande]

I also don't allow scavenging while out walking my concern has mostly been carion not human food. I have relied on a solid leave it, I don't really have a drop it I use leave it as a multi purpose command of don't go there, and let go of it.

When Rievaulx was a puppy he had a goose pup fetish and at the time leave it was really a figment of my fantasies I stopped going to the park that was a feast so that he did not continue to try and grab it a couple of months later he had no interest.

[ArtTalKat]

This is something Talon had a horrible time with. He'd grab anything, and I do mean anything, from the ground in less than a second. It was way too late for us to say "leave it" or "drop it" for that matter. It was really becoming a dangerous situation, so we did a lot of "It's your choice" wit him like Sekah posted about. Starting indoors than we set up situations outside so I'd know where the piece of food was on the ground before we went out. Worked really well for us, now at the very least if he see's something super interesting he may stop to look at it or think about it, but it gives us enough time to respond accordingly. With most things he looks at it and than just leaves it there and looks at us.

[Liz P]

Put your pup back on a leash or long line and reinforce the leave it and drop it commands. Training is about more than teaching the meaning of commands; it's about teaching a dog they need to obey them in the face of temptation.

[Alchemist]

My dogs are all highly food motivated, but "leave it!" (one of the first commands I ever taught) works for chicken bones, deer legs, whatever they encounter while out walking. (I wish it worked equally well when we leave my office only to find ourselves in the midst of kids running around kicking soccer balls).

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

You can teach a dog to take food only from your hand or its bowl with a shock collar but you better know what you're doing. Having seen dogs hoovering missed training treats at agility classes I wonder if teaching them to monetize food encourages scavenging.

 

Donald McCaig

[Shetlander]

Dogs are scavengers by nature. Some more than others. Really train leave it and drop it. I would use a long line or Flexi (gasp! but it makes a good training aid) until my dog was good about obeying those commands, so he couldn't practice a very self-reinforcing behavior.

[Camden's Mom]

Some fantastic advice here, thank you! I did some research on "It's Yer Choice" yesterday after Sekah suggested it and we'll begin working on that right away. It seems like a good program for training an advanced "leave it". I'd say we already have the first few steps down so it's time for us to up the anti.

 

Put your pup back on a leash or long line and reinforce the leave it and drop it commands. Training is about more than teaching the meaning of commands; it's about teaching a dog they need to obey them in the face of temptation.

 

This is such a good point! I hadn't thought of it that way, but it really hits the nail on the head. Luckily this behavior is at it's worst when he is on leash (off leash he's much more interested in running and playing then foraging) so I already have a good deal of control over him in these situations. I think in addition to the "It's Yer Choice" training and I need to become more consistent about not allowing him to forage. It'll be an uphill battle (entirely my fault) but today the rules will change and we'll see how he does. Thanks for the advice... this has been an eye opening conversation.

[GentleLake]

You can teach a dog to take food only from your hand or its bowl with a shock collar

 

Seriously!? That's just unconscionable in my not-so-humble opinion.

 

The fallout from that could well be a dog that's terrified of any kind of food.

[Sekah]

Some fantastic advice here, thank you! I did some research on "It's Yer Choice" yesterday after Sekah suggested it and we'll begin working on that right away. It seems like a good program for training an advanced "leave it". I'd say we already have the first few steps down so it's time for us to up the anti.

 

 

This is such a good point! I hadn't thought of it that way, but it really hits the nail on the head. Luckily this behavior is at it's worst when he is on leash (off leash he's much more interested in running and playing then foraging) so I already have a good deal of control over him in these situations. I think in addition to the "It's Yer Choice" training and I need to become more consistent about not allowing him to forage. It'll be an uphill battle (entirely my fault) but today the rules will change and we'll see how he does. Thanks for the advice... this has been an eye opening conversation.

 

I simply love Its Yer Choice (IYC) exercises. It's so easy to start, since you start small with easily controllable morsels of food. But you can quickly graduate to piles, dropped food, tossed food (we used to throw food AT the dogs and recall them through it in our classes). Then you can incorporate toys. After that, you can move on to environmental distractions. Before you know it, you have a dog with stellar self control. It takes some work, but in my opinion the results are more than worth it.

 

I can't claim that Cohen is perfect, but her self control is something of which I am very proud. She's not a naturally "good dog" -- she can be petulant, reactive and is always on the search for reinforcement with or without you, but you wouldn't know it to look at her. I credit much of her progress to working on IYC over the years.

[Camden's Mom]

I simply love Its Yer Choice (IYC) exercises. It's so easy to start, since you start small with easily controllable morsels of food. But you can quickly graduate to piles, dropped food, tossed food (we used to throw food AT the dogs and recall them through it in our classes). Then you can incorporate toys. After that, you can move on to environmental distractions. Before you know it, you have a dog with stellar self control. It takes some work, but in my opinion the results are more than worth it.

 

I can't claim that Cohen is perfect, but her self control is something of which I am very proud. She's not a naturally "good dog" -- she can be petulant, reactive and is always on the search for reinforcement with or without you, but you wouldn't know it to look at her. I credit much of her progress to working on IYC over the years.

 

Sekah, I am very interested in the IYC program, especially after watching Susan Garrett's video on how to implement the training. Like i said before, I think we've already got a good foundation for this and I'm looking forward to working on a more advanced level.

 

A couple of questions...

 

Using a cue ("leave it"): Is the idea of the program specifically NOT to use a cue? Would using a "leave it" cue, at least in the early stages of this program, be considered detrimental? Do you (or did you in the beginning) use a "leave it" cue with Cohen?

 

Self rewarding in later stages: The one thing that worries me about the later stages of this training (for example, once you are tossing food at the dog) is if he makes a mistake he will be self rewarded. Obviously early on you are close enough to prevent the dog from self rewarding, but once you advance if the dog makes one mistake won't that set you back? Did Cohen ever make a mistake and take a treat/item she wasn't supposed to? If so, how did you handle it?

 

Sorry to bother you with so many questions... I just really like the idea of IYC and figured if we're gonna' do this we should try to do it right.

[Sekah]

Sekah, I am very interested in the IYC program, especially after watching Susan Garrett's video on how to implement the training. Like i said before, I think we've already got a good foundation for this and I'm looking forward to working on a more advanced level.

 

A couple of questions...

 

Using a cue ("leave it"): Is the idea of the program specifically NOT to use a cue? Would using a "leave it" cue, at least in the early stages of this program, be considered detrimental? Do you (or did you in the beginning) use a "leave it" cue with Cohen?

 

Self rewarding in later stages: The one thing that worries me about the later stages of this training (for example, once you are tossing food at the dog) is if he makes a mistake he will be self rewarded. Obviously early on you are close enough to prevent the dog from self rewarding, but once you advance if the dog makes one mistake won't that set you back? Did Cohen ever make a mistake and take a treat/item she wasn't supposed to? If so, how did you handle it?

 

Sorry to bother you with so many questions... I just really like the idea of IYC and figured if we're gonna' do this we should try to do it right.

 

RE: a cue

 

Don't use a cue. The basic idea is that you present your dog with a choice and a chance to be autonomous. You don't tell them what to do. You simply present the choice, and then you control the result of that choice. One choice results in reinforcement, and the other results in none. If you tell your dog what to do (via saying "leave it"), you're not really allowing the dog to be autonomous.

 

You can't expect to police your dog's behaviour all the time. There are going to have moments where you drop a piece of food on the floor of the kitchen without noticing or when a squirrel darts out in front of you and darts off before you can process what just happened. You want your dog to understand that by exhibiting self control they'll get a greater reward momentarily. The next trick, of course, is recognizing when your dog exhibits self control and reward gratuitously. Sometimes it's too easy to take it for granted!

 

Re: self rewarding

 

The official answer is that you should only progress the game when you're almost certain the dog will be successful, and always try to be in a position where you can control access to the reinforcer. Though, shit happens and there have definitely been times where Cohen has self-reinforced when I didn't wish her to. Normally I'll toss out a "whoops" and retry the exercise. You could also end the game for the dog if you want. You can also go back a step or two to re-build the value for self control.

 

The basic idea is for you to build value for the correct behaviour and then test the dog's understanding of that behaviour. Test it by pushing the boundaries a bit to see if your dog can generalize what it is you're looking for. Testing helps expand your dog's understanding of the exercise and it also gives you valuable feedback for where you & your dog's strengths and weaknesses are. Try your best not to set your dog up to fail, but, again, shit happens.

[TEC]

I am not so sure about Garrett. I have always tried to set-up my dog for success. Use of distance, timing, frequency and other conditions allows the dog to have less chance of failure. She puts food right in the dog's face, and closes her hand when the dog does what is natural. The dog gets inconsistent messages.

 

A toddler who sees mom put an open jar full of cookies on the coffee table will eventually learn by Garrett's method not to reach for the cookies. The toddler will also develop feelings about mom, that she is inconsistent, and not to be trusted. How many times can mom put the lid back on the cookie jar as toddler reaches for it, before he/she thinks, wait, this person is not my friend?

 

I would set-up scenarios with sufficient distance between food and dog, that allows trainer to reward for showing disinterest. As dog has success, bring the food closer and closer, while at the same time making it in greater quantity and more interesting.

 

I once attended a series of puppy classes at a well respected dog club. The instructor had each puppy approach, as she got them excited enough to jump-up front paws on her. This was a prelude to firmly saying "off", and stepping away while turning her back to the puppy. Mine remained in a sit while she tried every trick in her book to get her to jump-up. Josie must have been ill that day . Anyway, she finally asked to have my pup jump on me, so that I could practice the lesson. Feeling vaguely uneasy about the trainer and her exercise, I followed her directions. Nevertheless, I thought she was a strange lady, who had odd methods. Developed a strong skepticism for the remainder of the instruction. Proud of the fact that when she taught heeling on the left as her initial leash exercise, I put Josie on my right. I got my classes and didn't return. Autonomy.-- TEC