Dog/toddler problems...rehoming a good dog?

[sixx]

EDIT: I think my post is super delayed in conversation. I don't have enough time today to read through all the posts...

 

Tough situation. Your dog is aggressive with other dogs.. not exactly easy to place if put into a rescue/foster situation, nor will a rescue necessarily want to take on an aggressive dog.

I have a dog that is reactive with children. Actually, she's terrified of them. I am never around children, and we lived in Alaska during her puppyhood... not exactly an easy place to go out and find kids. She enjoys running with children she knows, but the game quickly turns into nipping fun times. Not okay. I keep her separated from them if they want to run around. If they want to be calm, or throw a ball for her, that's another story. That's a supervised and controlled situation that is 100% successful every time.

So maybe my question is, can you keep them separated until the toddler is older. You stated Ollie loves children. What's the age of children he's interacted with that he loves? Perhaps your training days are going to be short lived. Maybe not. BUT, I wouldn't let the toddler interact with the dog if it's not a controlled and supervised situation. Right now Ollie is learning bad behaviors towards the toddler, and really shouldn't be allowed to interact. Toddlers are unpredictable and can't help doing things like falling, running, or screaming, or other things that may excite a bc. And, I certainly wouldn't trust the "training" of a toddler to be reliable around a dog. The kid is too young to be in check with his interactions. Maybe an ear or hair will be pulled at some point, then what? The kid gets bit... not the dogs fault. Prevention is key. Ollie's reaction with the fly sounds all too common, like the example someone else stated earlier with the dog keen on the sheep and snaps at the other dog in their space.

I will still never understand why people let their kids sit on dogs, and do other inappropriate things to them. JMO. Glad you're teaching your two year old how to interact properly.

[Cynthia P]

And don't forget exercise. Teach him to run beside the bike. A tired border collie is a good one! Exercise can help many behaviour problems

 

Cynthia

[shatchp]

And don't forget exercise. Teach him to run beside the bike. A tired border collie is a good one! Exercise can help many behaviour problems

 

Cynthia

YES! The first thing I did was make a commitment to get up extra early to take him for a run every morning...exercise helps with my behavior problems as well. Things are going well. Our next step is to step up our work on the reactivity/fear toward other dogs to alleviate that stress.

[bcnewe2]

He is 6 1/2 yeasrs old. Maybe a nice jog but I wouldn't throw running with a bike at a middle age dog unless he was in really good shape to begin with. How bout some mental exercise and a jog or long walk. My middle age ladies are thrilled with any special time. No hard workout needed.

[PSmitty]

Shatchp, I wanted to make sure you saw Ooky's post? Great stuff from someone who has been there, done that, and everyone survived unscathed.

[shatchp]

Shatchp, I wanted to make sure you saw Ooky's post? Great stuff from someone who has been there, done that, and everyone survived unscathed.

Yep, that stood out for us...

[mum24dog]

He is 6 1/2 yeasrs old. Maybe a nice jog but I wouldn't throw running with a bike at a middle age dog unless he was in really good shape to begin with.

 

That's not middle aged - that's prime of life.

 

Your advice applies at any age if a dog isn't fit.

[bcnewe2]

Well I think of it as middle age for their bodies but their brains are just right at that age! . Dew is 6ish, her work is better than it ever was, she is now my total partner but her body is not that of the young zoomie energetic dog. She takes a blind flank and trusts me, I think in part because her head is in the right place and her body is old enough that she will conserve herself energy wise as before she could just run blindly for hours. I think she would do anything I asked but if you asked her she'd much rather go on a long hike or walk than a bike run. Maybe its just us!

[gcv-border]

I am not sure if one can make a direct comparison, but human marathoners do not usually peak until 'later in life' i.e. maybe late 20s to mid-30s. (I say 'later in life' with respect to a sports life, not organic life). So a 6-year old dog might be considered to be of a similar age, and thus can manage a moderately-paced bike ride of several miles (if conditioned well),

 

Jovi

[juliepoudrier]

I think the point is that no animal, human or otherwise, should go from couch to marathon (or even long "sprint") in one fell swoop. One should work up to these things, or there is a price to be paid....

 

J.

[Ooky]

YES! The first thing I did was make a commitment to get up extra early to take him for a run every morning...exercise helps with my behavior problems as well. Things are going well. Our next step is to step up our work on the reactivity/fear toward other dogs to alleviate that stress.

This is so good to hear! I've been thinking about you guys and wanted to check in to see how things were going.

 

 

 

I have a dog that is reactive with children. Actually, she's terrified of them. I am never around children, and we lived in Alaska during her puppyhood... not exactly an easy place to go out and find kids. She enjoys running with children she knows, but the game quickly turns into nipping fun times. Not okay. I keep her separated from them if they want to run around. If they want to be calm, or throw a ball for her, that's another story. That's a supervised and controlled situation that is 100% successful every time.

 

So maybe my question is, can you keep them separated until the toddler is older. You stated Ollie loves children. What's the age of children he's interacted with that he loves? Perhaps your training days are going to be short lived. Maybe not. BUT, I wouldn't let the toddler interact with the dog if it's not a controlled and supervised situation. Right now Ollie is learning bad behaviors towards the toddler, and really shouldn't be allowed to interact. Toddlers are unpredictable and can't help doing things like falling, running, or screaming, or other things that may excite a bc. And, I certainly wouldn't trust the "training" of a toddler to be reliable around a dog. The kid is too young to be in check with his interactions. Maybe an ear or hair will be pulled at some point, then what? The kid gets bit... not the dogs fault. Prevention is key. Ollie's reaction with the fly sounds all too common, like the example someone else stated earlier with the dog keen on the sheep and snaps at the other dog in their space.

 

 

HI Sixx, I understand where you are coming from with this advice, I just wanted to clarify my advice and why we chose the route we did (and why I suggested it as advice to the OP). If I had a dog like the one you describe, and he/she continued to be terrified of kids and reactive towards them after I had one, I think it would be best for such a dog to be rehomed. You mention keeping them separate until the toddler is older, at one point you say supervised which I absolutely agree with but later seem to say stop all interactions. I want to explain why I don't think this is such a great option. While I absolutely agree that it is up to the parents to control and manage the situation, this is not the same as keeping two dogs that fight separated 100% of the time. Because a toddler must have parental attention and supervision constantly, keeping your dog separate from your toddler 100% of the time is IMO a recipe for a severely neglected dog. I'm sure it could work in the short term, like for injuries etc., or might be easier for more low key or less demanding dogs than your typical BC, but for any period longer than a month or two, I think the dog would really suffer, because the only time it could come out of the confinement/sequester area would be when the toddler is out of the house, or if one parent works with the dog away from the house or the rest of the family. As the life of a couple who works and keeps up a house and raises a toddler is always super busy, even the best intentions of making a lot of time for the dog who can never be around the toddler are likely to get so onerous that I can't imagine many families being able to fulfill the real needs of the dog for long, at least without a ton of stress for the parents. If a lot of time can't be made for the dog, it's going to feel neglected and lonely, and may develop behavioral issues related to loneliness and boredom (or have any existing issues worsen). If the parents are stressed and tired with all the extra work of splitting parenting duties for a substantial period of time each day so one of them can make time to work with or be with the dog, I imagine one or more of the parents could come to resent the dog, which most BCs would pick up on.

 

Now, I think part of the problem for us, and I think for the OP too, is that the dog already does feel somewhat neglected! It already is hard enough to remember you need to make a commitment to pay particular attention to your dog. I really think this elevates the stress and anxiety levels the dogs have, to suddenly get so much "less" of you. But in these cases, at least the dog was still around the family and with its pack even when not being paid particular attention to or trained or exercised. If ALL attention and companionship had to occur without the toddler around, there's no way it's going to be remotely easy to involve the dog in your life in a way that they feel fulfilled and not neglected.

 

Secondly, keeping the two separate will not allow them to grow together. You won't be able to teach your kid how to act around the dog through consistency, repetition, and enforcement of rules, and knowing most toddlers, they would likely become obsessed with trying to get into where the dog was isolated, which the dog would obviously know about even if it was behind a door and would this likely be upsetting for the dog, might start barking problems, etc. And the kid might even be successful when your back was turned or you went to the bathroom anyway. Kids are scary because they change, I remember the day my daughter walked right over to the cabinet with all the cleansers and Draino and just opened up the child lock with NO prior warning that she had ever learned how to do that. Thank goodness I was looking right at her when it happened, because that was how I learned the child locks we had depended on without worry for 2 years suddenly offered exactly zero protection. The dog also won't be able to experience any of the good things about the toddler that should help alleviate some of their anxiety - like the fact that they are essentially little sticky treat dispensers constantly dribbling food who can be very sweet, very loving, very fun, very willing to play, and also are a member of the pack!

 

Is there risk in not rehoming the dog? Of course. I would posit there is risk in having ANY dog, especially of BC size, with small children. If you hate risk, don't have kids though because, well, there are a TON of things that risk their little lives and safety. You can't make them 100% safe all the time no matter what. And to a certain extent, every risk you completely eliminate reduces their freedom and potential for growth. Many risks come with great benefits, for example in my mind it is a HUGE benefit to the child's health and emotional development to grow up with a dog. As a parent no one but can you can decide where your comfort level is for accepting risk vs. reward. In our case, we evaluated the situation and know there is some risk she will get bitten (I maintain this is true of any toddler growing up with any dog, but yes BCs are not quite like "normal" dogs either!), but I have worked to minimize that risk while still keeping our dog part of our pack and part of our family. And while NO, toddlers cannot be trusted, per say, they certainly can be trained and can learn simple rules so that YOUR job supervising them is that much easier, AND the dog starts to feel they are operating (most of the time at least) under rules they can be comfortable with. IMO, if due to Odin's reaction we had decided that the risk was too great to do anything but keep them separate, I would have felt we owed it to HIM to rehome. That would have broken my heart but he is a pet dog, raised as a pet, that is what he understands and he deserves a pack and an owner he can be with. Also, if we had felt the risk was too great to do anything but separate 100% of the time, it would have been because he wasn't issuing enough warnings we could react to and showing such good control, and my opinion of him ever really being able to live with a kid in such a situation would be pretty low.

 

Sorry for the long winded post but I just wanted to clarify.

[bcnewe2]

Wonderful post ooky. I think great advise.