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Dog/toddler problems...rehoming a good dog?


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I'd like to thank everyone for the input. My heart is attached to this dog, and my head is forced to see the larger picture from the perspective of my wife and son, as well as my dog. My wife and I resonated with different perspectives expressed by you all, but it was all helpful. Bottom line, I'm out of the house 10 hours a day, and my wife is not comfortable with him remaining. Frankly, she's probably seeing this through more unclouded eyes...she saw the incident and the incidents leading up to this, she's home with dog and child every day, she knows what she could give toward rehabilitation, and I trust her judgement. I've learned to listen to her over the years.

 

I can't wrap my head around this yet, but in the meantime we're focusing on safety in the house and starting to look for another option. I got in touch with Western BC Rescue...thanks. I lost a dog to kidney disease 7 years ago, and this feels just as bad.

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So, lets stay on point here... a little more background. Since I've had Ollie, he's been trained on the clicker, he's been trained to enjoy children and in fact loves kids. My son at 2 1/2 is trained not to take things from dog's mouth, hit dog or otherwise bother dog, which when it happens is inadvertant. My son can command Ollie to lay down and sit with hand motions, which he does.

 

I've read Don't Shoot the Dog, and don't intend to. I've worked Control Unleashed into my routinue and will take another look at it especially around calming. Ollie can be intense when turned "on" (which is anytime there's a ball in sight) and I've viewed his previous interactions with the kid as more vocalizations. He was not snarling and baring teeth, not biting. However, what my wife reported yesterday sounded like my dog basically put my son in check like he was a puppy in his space. Not OK. My son has red marks on his face, either from tooth or claw...nothing serious, but there nonetheless.

 

Where do you draw the line in adjusting your life around the needs of a dog? I appreciate the input...this is why I posted this.

Good reply! Always easier to start an initial post with the work you have done so people can really know your situation better, versus assuming you haven't done much work, which sadly is the case in most incidents such as this.

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Just to offer a little hope, or whatever you want to call it: I generally dislike children. Strongly. I avoid interacting with them at all costs, unless it's in an emergency situation (I work in EMS). A dog with a history of poor interactions with children wouldn't be a problem for me. There are folks out there who won't consider Ollie's history a deal-breaker.

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I wouldn't hesitate to take in a dog that was just not very good with children. Lots of dogs aren't great with kids. I'm not great with kids either.

 

Border collies are just so reactive to stuff and kids move too fast.

 

I know that when I am petsitting for a reactive dog I find myself doing everything slowly so that the dog always knows where I am and what I am doing. No startling moves. But little children just can't do that. They are loud and fast and their motion is often really unpredictable. It's no wonder some dogs react to that.

 

Zeke lost his happy home because the mother was afraid he would savage the children - he had killed a squirrel. He is the most gentle dog. But he does kill squirrels or rabbits if he can catch them.

 

The dog is probably trying to communicate in dog language and the child just doesn't get it.

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I also want to offer you hope that he will get a good home, I have had three collies one actively disliked children one is wary of them and the other loved them, if you don't have children it is very easy to manage. The rescue I foster for does not place dogs in homes with small children usually and has often placed dogs not comfortable with children in homes.

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I get it!
It is not my intentions to choose a dog over the safety of a child. Children are precious. But, without signs of aggression, true aggression, which to me sounds not the case here, I am not sure I agree with finding him a new home.
Your kid (and yes he is very young yet!) will encounter situations where he will be put in place by others. He will learn. You will not put him with other kids that are older or similarly overwhelm him. Among his peers he will learn his place. He will learn his boundaries. Now, it is not a dogs job to put a small child in it's place. But it will happen. If it happens in a reasonable way. A scratch from a cat, a scraped knee because the dog knocks the kid over, a scrape because the dog took a stick...those to me are no different than squabbles he will get into with other kids. He will learn to treat others and behave accordingly. Having said that, he maybe too young yet. And if the dog showed unnecessary force, fine, different story. If you and your wife (and trust me, this is not meant as criticism at all as I don't know your lifes) are not able to manage interactions between them in a way (and this is also not meant as criticism because I know life is not that cut and dry) that keeps both safe...then yes, re homing his is a choice that maybe best for your situation.

Children are precious. I was never blessed. But, I thank my parents to have raised me around animals that allowed me to safely learn, how to behave around them. And that did involve being knocked over, bucked off (horses obviously), ran away with....you name it.

if the dog is appropriate in his responses...I am not so sure I would be so fast to re home it.

If the dog is appropriate in his responses but he does not fit the lifestyle at the moment..ok, fair enough as well...but make sure you admit it and don't blame the dog. Blame the momentary circumstances. No judgement on my part as you do not strike me as a person that would not make sure the dog will be safe.

And children are precious. But so is the life you took on as your responsibility with your dog. And although children should always come first....your dog maybe able to assist in teaching your kid how to appropriately (not saying he did anything wrong at all when this incident happened maybe he was just simply in the wrong place at the wrong time) interact with animals and to assist in learning respect, caring and responsibility. Yes, I know he is still too young. But I believe the basics are put there much earlier than we often realize.

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I have rehomed several dogs. One of them because I fell in love with someone who lived in a tiny house, tiny lot, with young children. This dog does NOT do well with children. So he went to a home with no children and where he could still work sheep. He adjusted well. I now have had this dog back for two years. The children are older so it works out okay now. It was very hard for me to rehome him. But at the time it was best for all. Having him back home is also a true joy.

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It's too bad there is no way to just rehome kids. You could just send them away until they are about 5. That would work for me.

 

Really, sometimes kids and dogs just don't work out and you just can't put the children in danger. And getting bitten by an unhappy dog is a real danger that should be avoided at all cost.

 

I'm not a trainer but I have never seen a dog that was snarky get better. Seems like they just get worse.

 

You are really smart to deal with this before the situation gets bad.

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Sam-

 

Based on the replys thus far I don't think these woman have any children, but their dogs are their "children".

I think you've already been kicked around about this one, but really????

 

I like my dogs better than I like 99% of the people I meet. Still, I would not ever keep a dog that I couldn't trust around my child or his friends when he was growing up. We're older now, rarely do little ones come to our home and when they do, they don't get to play with our dogs, especially the one we got through rescue because she nipped a toddler that was pulling her hair.

 

It's a hard choice for you to make but it sounds like it just isn't going to work at home.

 

This might help - We are so grateful for the person who gave up Ladybug - not they way they did it mind, stuffing her in a shelter the day before Christmas. But because they gave her up , we have had 9 wonderful years with a delightful girl who filled our empty hearts (we had lost two dogs and cat the year before.) She is our best girl ever. So if you know that your dog will find a good, comfortable home, with someone who loves him as much as you do, that might help to make it easier.

 

 

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I like my dogs better than I like 99% of the people I meet. Still, I would not ever keep a dog that I couldn't trust around my child or his friends when he was growing up.

 

It's a hard choice for you to make but it sounds like it just isn't going to work at home.

 

This might help - We are so grateful for the person who gave up Ladybug - not they way they did it mind, stuffing her in a shelter the day before Christmas. But because they gave her up , we have had 9 wonderful years with a delightful girl who filled our empty hearts (we had lost two dogs and cat the year before.) She is our best girl ever. So if you know that your dog will find a good, comfortable home, with someone who loves him as much as you do, that might help to make it easier.

I appreciate this.

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I'm not a trainer but I have never seen a dog that was snarky get better. Seems like they just get worse.

 

You haven't known enough dogs yet.

 

Dogs are snarky for different reasons - remove the reason or train the dog to view the object of the snarkiness in a more positive light and it is very possible that the dog will improve.

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I've got a snarky gone normal. She was probably snarky 2/3's of her life. She is now 13 and couldn't be sweeter. She used to eat puppies for dinner. She is now the puppy ambassador of the family. She is my most trustworthy around my grandkids. I'd leave her unsupervised before any of the others and all mine are pretty used to kids by now.

Yep...so horrible that I'm pretty sure all of her litter was pts because of aggression except her. I never gave up on her and couldn't be happier that I didn't. There were years where we'd travel to different trials and I'd just hold her leash tight. Dogs would walk by and she'd lunge to the end of her short lead. Everyone knew to ignore her. She usually hid from people but snarled if you cornered her.

now she love a good pet even from strangers!

 

Not the same dog! And it warms my heart to write this little story!

So yes it does happen!

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I'm glad to hear that. I had one really bad temperment that I took in and she did improve over time but it was because there was nothing to set her off. I would never have trusted her out in public. She was way beyond snarky.

 

I've taken care of two springers that were bad. One was sort of OK as long as he got his way but he was horribly dog aggressive and I never did trust him not to bite if pushed. The other one was just plain dangerous. She hated men and would just attack.

 

Oddly, my Tay did not like tall men. She would turn and try to bite. We stayed away from tall men and she was just fine. Normally she was a really friendly dog. As far as I knew no one had ever hurt her or scared her.

 

One of the dogs I take care of now does not want other dogs to pass him on the stairs. He will turn and let them know not to go past him. And he is just terrible about his crate. He gets in it and threatens to kill anyone who gets close. They have small children but the kids all know just not to get anywhere near his crate.

 

It's so odd.

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It sounds like you are heading down the path of rehoming but I thought I would throw this out there anyway.

 

I have a 5 year old border collie, a 3 1/2 year old and a 15 month old. When the first child started to walk, it made Orbit really uncomfortable because lets be honest, toddlers are unpredictable and a bit crazy. Orbit would send a warning growl when he was in a situation where he could not get away. There may have even been an air snap or two when he was startled. This was a dog that we had always tried to desensitize to random and even rough handling because we knew we would have children one day.

 

There are people out there that will insist that I am a terrible parent for exposing my kid to a dog that does not love to be "loved" toddler-style. I am not one of those people that think that dogs should take anything and just tolerate it. I always supervise and have always told my son that if he is not respectful, he will get bitten. Having said that, I know my dog. I never really worried about injury and was ok if my kid was a bit scared by the growls.

 

Something magical happened around the time my son turned 3. Orbit suddenly recognized him as a human person. And now that he has made that connection, he has no concerns about the kids and is ridiculously tolerant of the 15 month old. He has also discovered that kids throw balls and I think that he has never been happier even though we have so little time to give him individually. And the kids are just learning so many wonderful skills in regards to how animals should be treated.

 

So I guess I am trying to say that if you are scared for your child's safety, you probably don't have much of a choice. But if it is more of a feeling that this is just going to get worse, well for us it really did get better and the second kid became a moot point. Sorry that you have to make such a tough choice.

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Just to explain why he went after you son this time. He was over stimulated by the buzzing fly (some dogs really fixate on things like that) he turned his over stimulation onto you son. I have a feeling it'd be pushing it to say you were lucky, it really sounds like Ollie has had control of himself all along. How much is the question. An example would be, dogs at a fence watching sheep. They ignore the other dog that is pestering them but at one point they turn and sort of explode on the offending dog (or kid) it's the excitement from watching sheep not being able to work them and the touching from the other dog or kid. Just sets them off. They can and do learn to control that but IMO it is quite hard and 100% isn't easy.

I feel this is right on.

 

Update: After the initial fear reaction as parents, and a week or so with my wife firmly in the rehome camp and me very conflicted, we've relaxed a bit ...we took a long, hard look together at what got us here. Ollie has been around kids since 4 months old (6 years ago), when our neighbors 4 and 7 year old visited nearly daily. He's been around our son as a walking human-type for around a year. In all this time, never a hint of trouble. When he would get overwhelmed, he would go hide under a bush or pop into his crate for some Ollie time, and we knew to leave him alone.

 

This last year has been stressful for our family...moved to a new city, into a small townhouse with no yard, tough job with long hours for me, Ollie and wife are contending with a quicker toddler all day long. Somewhere along the line, we forgot we had a border collie...and Ollie has been trying to tell us. I think it's important to note how out of character snapping at anyone is...or I'd be thinking differently. This is about overstimuation and frustration, not child aggression. This doesn't make it OK or any less worrisome, but this diagnosis allows for a treatment.

 

So, we're making a go of turning this around...returning to a highly structured pattern, crating, getting the clicker back out, working daily on calming and obedience drills...today my 2 1/2 year old was proudly ordering Ollie "down" and "spin" with his toddler verson of the hand motions, and treating him with my clicks. Ollie has been allowed to get too stimulated in the home environment, and we've dropped the ball in terms of his needs. I need to own this. We're embracing hope, being careful, and starting over as though he just entered our family. Also, there's a chance we're moving back to Oregon to a rural setting this summer...which would be nice for all of us.

 

As far as helping Ollie see my son as human/pack leader: Ollie is last through doorways, eats separately, isn't allowed to be wound up around kid, gets corrected if he doesn't physically defer to him, and kid is taking part in training sessions. Any other ideas for me?

 

Thanks for the help...

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Good luck, its not as hard as your at thinking the moment. It will be good for all of you to be more grounded. Dogs have a way with that.

 

And just MO, my kids are or are not above the dogs, they are mine and I rule all things so they do not address the kids without my permission. That's what works for us. Tricks done for the kids come with a glance over at me just to make sure it's OK to interact with them. Hope that makes sense.

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When he would get overwhelmed, he would go hide under a bush or pop into his crate for some Ollie time, and we knew to leave him alone.

...

From my own experience this part of your anyalis is critical. My late Brody came to us with an aggression issue he was 3 1/2, what he had learned was if he lashed out people would leave him alone ( although he was an angel with kids his issue was with full sized humans) what we learned was that he got both over stimulated and some times just tired of being fussed over, and if he could, he would put himself just like Ollie into a time out, how we helped was to watch him in social situations and know when he needed quiet time from his attitude we could really tell from the focus in his eyes. Half an hour of quiet time in his truck and he was good to go.

We all got so good at making this work that very few people realized that he was a snappy, everyone thought he was a great social little dog a true social butterfly that loved people, which he did right up until the moment when he had a tantrum.

 

Good luck with Ollie

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shatchp - I'm so pleased that you've taken a step back and reviewed the situation rather than instantly reacting in panic and rehoming your dog which you clearly love very much.

 

I wish you all well and hope it works out for you. If you do still decide that rehoming is the best option at least it will be a considered decision and noone will blame you.

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a true social butterfly that loved people, which he did right up until the moment when he had a tantrum.

There are humans who are exactly the same. Like me. I'm the life of the party until I'm not. Then, like Brody, I learned to take myself away from all the hubbub. Makes a better world for everyone.

 

Ruth and Agent Gibbs

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Have to agree with Orbit on this one. I have a 2 yo about to turn 3 and I do think you are making the right decision here based on your description. My 5-yo BC Odin LOVES kids, and he LOVES his baby girl....but he does NOT love toddlers. We went through a pretty bad phase around 2 years where she just kept chasing him at what seemed like every opportunity. He definitely gives warnings, first warning is calming signals and trying to get away from her, depending on his own excitement levels it was variable how much additional crazy toddler attention he could take after the first signals before going into "I'm REALLY asking you to stop" mode. He tends to give a submissive grin and try to lick her face, if not stopped soon after that, or if she tried to come after him when he had something he really wants like his favorite antler or his own food, low growls could happen. Once or twice, we got all the way to an air snap, but never at her face. I am sure that is the next step.

 

What I am saying is that as parents, it is not easy to keep them separated 100% of the time to avoid 100% of these altercations, but my dog, and it sounds like your dog too, has very good control and is willing to give lots of progressive warnings that they are uncomfortable. What I did to get through this phase (because as Orbit said now at almost age 3 it is so much better):

  • Be thankful for every warning. Don't punish your dog for them, even the more scary ones like growls. Thank your dog that they are trying to bring the situation to a resolve by "diplomacy". Praise heavily when they give appropriate early warnings such as calming signals (turning head away, coming to you, trying to remove themselves).
  • Let the dog out of the situation in a way that doesn't punish. Odin doesn't go outside so much that it is a punishment to him. When I would see things beginning to upset him, as soon as possible I would ask in a very upbeat voice, Odin do you want to go out? Let back in when he asks to come in too, so he doesn't feel banished. Usually he came back in "reset" and able to cope with more toddler antics and noise for a while.
  • Never leave them alone together. This isn't forever, but be strict right now.
  • Encourage your child giving the dog yummy treats and toys, and praise. Holding leash on walks is cool too if you can make that work. Discourage touching, hugging, patting, etc - not forever but for now.
  • WORK ON THE KID. This is one of the biggest steps. If you are like me, I don't really enjoy coming down hard on a 2-year old, but there were two things we did this on. One was safety near roads, and one was NOT bugging/chasing/stepping on Odin and LEAVE HIM ALONE when we tell you to. Do not bug him when he is in his crate, EVER. A 2 yo can understand this, but we did have to get harsh with her, because they love testing limits. These rules are so important it is very worth it in my mind to really have her understand. You must be consistent, and you must be stern (if your kid is like mine)..
  • Pay more attention to your dog, play more, train more, etc. This helps too.

Your kid will get more predictable, your dog will feel better. One day you probably will see your dog who had primarily been trying to get away from your toddler all the time, actually seeking her out and asking to play. At least that was my experience.

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I feel this is right on.

 

Update: After the initial fear reaction as parents, and a week or so with my wife firmly in the rehome camp and me very conflicted, we've relaxed a bit ...we took a long, hard look together at what got us here. Ollie has been around kids since 4 months old (6 years ago), when our neighbors 4 and 7 year old visited nearly daily. He's been around our son as a walking human-type for around a year. In all this time, never a hint of trouble. When he would get overwhelmed, he would go hide under a bush or pop into his crate for some Ollie time, and we knew to leave him alone.

 

This last year has been stressful for our family...moved to a new city, into a small townhouse with no yard, tough job with long hours for me, Ollie and wife are contending with a quicker toddler all day long. Somewhere along the line, we forgot we had a border collie...and Ollie has been trying to tell us. I think it's important to note how out of character snapping at anyone is...or I'd be thinking differently. This is about overstimuation and frustration, not child aggression. This doesn't make it OK or any less worrisome, but this diagnosis allows for a treatment.

 

So, we're making a go of turning this around...returning to a highly structured pattern, crating, getting the clicker back out, working daily on calming and obedience drills...today my 2 1/2 year old was proudly ordering Ollie "down" and "spin" with his toddler verson of the hand motions, and treating him with my clicks. Ollie has been allowed to get too stimulated in the home environment, and we've dropped the ball in terms of his needs. I need to own this. We're embracing hope, being careful, and starting over as though he just entered our family. Also, there's a chance we're moving back to Oregon to a rural setting this summer...which would be nice for all of us.

 

As far as helping Ollie see my son as human/pack leader: Ollie is last through doorways, eats separately, isn't allowed to be wound up around kid, gets corrected if he doesn't physically defer to him, and kid is taking part in training sessions. Any other ideas for me?

 

Thanks for the help...

From the perspective of someone who is involved in rescue I think you are on the right track as long as you are seeing progress. I always appreciate someone who thinks ahead. If you wait until something bad happens it's too late to rehome.

 

I think often times parents of young children also forget that the dog needs dailey exercise and maybe one on one time with you or your wife. The dog needs a break from the 2 year old from time to time as I'm sure the parents do too!

 

I also appreciate what someone else stated about working on the 2 year olds behavior towards the dog. It's a tough thing to do, but it applies to their behavior around other kids and adults as well. Being gentle with all living things is a good lesson to learn.

 

Gina

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