Getting puppy, look like a reliable breeder?

[Gloria Atwater]

Let me add that I do believe there are a number of "red flag" breeders who honestly think they are producing quality pups and don't feel they are doing anything harmful to the breed and its future, and who are ethical people. They just may be misguided and ignorant, and I have certainly been there (may still be there) myself (not as a breeder, just as a person).

 

 

I hear you. There is a lady I know who is a very nice person, treats her dogs beautifully, breeds rarely and with great forethought, takes pride in her pups' accomplishments when out in the world with their new owners ... but she is solidlly AKC. She honestly and earnestly thinks she's producing border collies who can "do it all," and frequently points out her dogs as examples of how show dogs can herd, too.

 

However, her current sire is such a reluctant worker that he barely made it through the AKC "herding" program, and having finally (and with much effort on the part of the handler) acheived whatever herding championship that is ... he's retiring from herding. And he's only like 6 years old. A handsome dog in the prime of life who does not want to do what his forebears were bred to do. Yet she thinks this is okay. It's acceptable. And he's got puppies out there in the world.

 

Oddly enough, she *has* reached back to some pretty good working lines in the past, but she always and inevitably dilutes them with show breeding. She's a lovely lady to know, but her dogs are, in my opinion, a textbook example of just how AKC show breeding very swiftly dilutes and waters down the border collie's defining ability to work.

 

*sighhh*

 

~ Gloria

[Gideon's girl]

My agility instructor has sport bred BCs and she can't even bring them in the building, they are so crazy. She is completely amazed at my working bred BCs that just lie there until it is their turn, then they turn on, do their thing, and calmly go back to lying there until it is their turn.

[Shetlander]

My agility instructor has sport bred BCs and she can't even bring them in the building, they are so crazy. She is completely amazed at my working bred BCs that just lie there until it is their turn, then they turn on, do their thing, and calmly go back to lying there until it is their turn.

 

Doesn't sound like she knows how to train self-control. Seems odd for an agility instructor.

[Gideon's girl]

I seriously think that around here in agility there is a culture of out of control. We went to someone elses class and every dog in the class was a lunatic and everybody just accepted it. At least in my regular class, her dogs are the only loons. She really has given up on working on this problem with her dogs.

[loggerboots]

^{When I was first looking at acquiring a BC I was also told (by well meaning agility types) that the working bred dogs were nuts and not suitable as pets in most cases. When I finally acquired my working bred dog (through rescue), I thought there must be something wrong with her because she was so easy. I've since met about half a dozen other working red dogs and they're all of nice temperament. Some are really good, accomplished trial dogs, too. There is a bit of a PR problem regarding working bred dogs and the general public from my experience.}

[juliepoudrier]

My point (I might as well get to it) is not that dogs should be bred for anything but work. Rather, one of the places I see the conversation breaking down between working and sports people, is when sports people are told their dogs, unlike working bred dogs, have no off switch and are difficult to live with. That is not our experience. A big reason it is an uphill battle to get sports people to consider working bred dogs is because, by and large, they are extremely happy with their sports bred models. They do well in the ring, they’re great at home and are just very fun dogs.

 

Anyway, I think the argument to breed for working ability is strongest when it sticks to what makes working bred dogs special and why those working traits need to be preserved through correct breeding. It only distracts and alienates at least some of your audience you hope to reach when there are references to what makes sports bred dogs inferior, especially when comments do not match people’s real life experience.

Huh? We must frequent a different forum or something. I rarely recall working folks claiming that all sports bred dogs are out of control and only working bred dogs are sane, though I have seen plenty of comments in the other direction. But it's beside the point. I know some very knowledgeable, successful agility folks who like that crazy, amped-up dog (no matter where they got it from originally) and I've never understood it, because as others have mentioned it's just channeling useful energy into non-useful behavior.

 

I think most working breeders think it's a mistake to breed dogs solely for sport, for the same arguments that are always made--that doing so changes the breed from what it is. And unfortunately the contingent that prefers amped up dogs are going to breed them or choose from breeders who create them. That doesn't bother me; they're not my dogs and I don't have to live/work with them.

 

And I suppose there's no point in rehashing the whole "why breed for sports" argument because people are going to do it no matter what. But I do take exception to the implication that the working dog breeders are spreading misinformation about the insanity of sports bred dogs. So far everyone on this thread who has mentioned the insanity of sports bred dogs is, as far as I can tell, a sports person.

 

As for the tired argument that working dog breeders won't sell to pet homes, I guess it's pointless to continue to try to refute that, since like the "working dogs are hard to live with and really must have livestock or they'll be miserable" (as a reason for buying something else) myth, it's a myth that just won't go away. I see lots of Red Top dogs on agility lists, photos on Facebook, etc. And I'm sure he's not the only one selling dogs to non-working homes. (For those who don't know, Red Top is Pat Shanahan, whose dog Riggs won the 2010 National Sheepdog Finals). That's just one top handler who sells dogs to non-working homes. Someone else already mentioned Jack Knox. I can think of others. It just takes a little more work to find those breeders vs. the breeder of the hot little sports number one sees every day at agility class.

 

J.

[rushdoggie]

Huh? We must frequent a different forum or something. I rarely recall working folks claiming that all sports bred dogs are out of control and only working bred dogs are sane, though I have seen plenty of comments in the other direction.

 

Um, theres a few of those comments in this very thread. They are all over the board.

[Gloria Atwater]

^{When I was first looking at acquiring a BC I was also told (by well meaning agility types) that the working bred dogs were nuts and not suitable as pets in most cases. When I finally acquired my working bred dog (through rescue), I thought there must be something wrong with her because she was so easy. I've since met about half a dozen other working red dogs and they're all of nice temperament. Some are really good, accomplished trial dogs, too. There is a bit of a PR problem regarding working bred dogs and the general public from my experience.}

 

 

The thing those nay-sayers fail to realize is that a nutzo dog would be useless for stock work. If a dog needs to go 30 or more miles per day in every sort or terrain or weather, he needs to have a good head on his shoulder and the ability to use his energies wisely, or he'd burn out within the hour.

 

Sure, they make lousy apartment dogs, if they're never given anything to do but snap at flies or chase laser dots. But a border collie is a border collie: they require a good measure of their people's time, attention and energy. I can't imagine why those agility people would say working dogs are nuts. What about agility requires a mellower dog than one would find the working lines? I can't imagine what that set of folks was thinking.

 

Definitely a PR problem, there.

 

~ Gloria

[Shetlander]

Um, theres a few of those comments in this very thread. They are all over the board.

 

I have seen those comments for years. Not constantly, but they pop up here and there, often in this kind of discussion. And they don't strengthen the argument for working bred dogs because that simply isn't the experience many people have with their sports bred dogs.

[bcnewe2]

I went back and read almost all of this thread. No where did I see anyone post about crazy sport bred dogs. Yes I do remember a few posts in other threads about over the top sport bred dogs but I think it was summed up in this thread quite well, its over the top owners that create over the top dogs.

[Shetlander]

I can't imagine why those agility people would say working dogs are nuts. What about agility requires a mellower dog than one would find the working lines? I can't imagine what that set of folks was thinking.

 

Definitely a PR problem, there.

 

 

 

They say it because they have never met a working bred dog and that is what sports breeders tell them and what their fellow sports people say. And all they see and know are sports bred dogs who they really like. These are the same people who were surprised when Quinn showed such huge interest in sheep because he was the least "herdy" of our dogs. They don't know what they don't know. I agree that it is a PR problem, at least in the sports world.

[Shetlander]

I went back and read almost all of this thread. No where did I see anyone post about crazy sport bred dogs. Yes I do remember a few posts in other threads about over the top sport bred dogs but I think it was summed up in this thread quite well, its over the top owners that create over the top dogs.

 

Interesting. The two quotes in my first post on this thread mentioned sanity, or lack thereof, in sports bred dogs. And yes, there were also comments that much of that is due to the trainer. I was simply trying to point out that such references to crazy sports bred dogs don't strike me as helping the cause when a sports bred dog is sacked out on the sofa next to the sports person reading the comment.

[juliepoudrier]

And there are posts all over this forum claiming that working bred dogs are too intense for just about everything but work (I won't even go in to all the comments about how working bred dogs are unsocialized, come from parents without health checks, etc.--we've all heard it all ad nauseum). My point is that the lack of communication/PR issue isn't all from the working dog side as you seem to be implying. It's a whopping big two-way street. Another constant PR issue from the other side: the "working breeders won't sell to pet/sport homes" argument, which has been refuted here repeatedly, and ywr still pops up in every. single. thread. where someone suggests considering a working bred dog.

 

ETA: After posting, I went back and looked at the first two quotes you responded to. Neither poster has working dogs or breeds working dogs. One said her chosen sport was agility. I believe Tommy Coyote may have taken her dog to sheep, but I don't think she claims to be a working dog person, but more of a pet home (she can correct me if I'm wrong). That's why your argument that working dog breeders have a PR problem makes no sense to me. We are not the ones saying that sports dogs are insane. that's why the "huh?" in my post. The comments you made in the last paragraph I quoted from you implies that we (the working folk) are somehow alienating others with our claims of insanity among sport bred dogs, when the folks you use as examples for making those claims aren't working dog folk.

 

J.

 

Interesting. The two quotes in my first post on this thread mentioned sanity, or lack thereof, in sports bred dogs. And yes, there were also comments that much of that is due to the trainer. I was simply trying to point out that such references to crazy sports bred dogs don't strike me as helping the cause when a sports bred dog is sacked out on the sofa next to the sports person reading the comment.

[Shetlander]

Fine, Julie, whatever. I wasn't trying to start a fight and I am not going to nitpick quotes. We are talking at cross purposes. I don't breed and will probably get a rescue for my next dog. I wasn't the person who mentioned a PR problem though I agreed with that comment. Have a nice night.

[bcnewe2]

So 2 posts out of 6 pages of posts are what you are calling out?

I think people have been pretty civil in this thread. If it turns some people off then they were looking for excuses anyway.

 

Why are you trying to make this about something it's not.

Either you agree with the board philosophy of promoting working bred dogs even if its not what you do or what you own.

Or you don't.

IMO, I really don't see hostile posts on this thread.

 

Sorry Liz I was posting at the same time. I won't add anymore either. Your posts earlier just seemed accusing to me.

[juliepoudrier]

Well yeah, it's nitpicking I suppose to point out that it's not true that the working dog folks are causing their own problems by making false claims about sport dogs. But whatever. You can continue to misrepresent, and I'll continue to "nitpick" when that happens. And people wonder (or maybe not) why the working dog folks have left this forum in droves. You have a nice night too.

 

J.

[rushdoggie]

Well yeah, it's nitpicking I suppose to point out that it's not true that the working dog folks are causing their own problems by making false claims about sport dogs. But whatever. You can continue to misrepresent, and I'll continue to "nitpick" when that happens. And people wonder (or maybe not) why the working dog folks have left this forum in droves. You have a nice night too.

 

J.

 

I don't think she represented the issue as all that, just that if you use A as part of an argument why you are right, and A is not universally true, fewer people will listen to your argument (which she has clearly said is a good one that she supports).

[loggerboots]

fwiw (and the OP is probably long gone), another thing for those of us outside looking in, good working breeders are hard to find. Very few promote their kennels (Pat Shannahan has a nice webpage and he was one of the few working kennels I could find online). While many of the non-working breeders clearly spend a lot of time promoting their dogs and also seem better with modern communication, email, etc. It's much easier to find non-working BC breeders online, and that's how most folks will begin their search.

 

The second point is that, as you'd expect, good working breeders rarely have dogs for sale while pet (and some of the sport breeders I've seen) simple produce more pups (I should note that the one sport breeder I contacted before I decided I wanted a working dog had very high standards for placing her pups and a long waiting list, so her volume of pups seemed to be driven by demand, though it was difficult for me to determine how she was qualifying her breeding stock). It's very easy to understand how someone outside of this culture would end up with a pet bred or sports bred dog as the good working bred dogs are really hard to find. Unless you already know where to find them.

 

Around where I live there are many more sport dog people than herding people. Based on my experience, I would guess that the ratio of sport and pet bred BC's will increase amongst those seeking to acquire these dogs. I even wonder if, even if everyone knew that it's better to get a BC from working lines, the good working breeders would be able to meet the demand for good dogs for people who'd like to run them in sports. The standard for choosing breeding stock is very high in the working stockdog world, which is, of course, a good thing, but it does mean that there are fewer pups for those who want them, leading some (who don't care about working ability), to choose from a kennel where the dogs are more "available".

 

I will say that this forum is a great asset as it's what led me to find out about the "dog wars" and the difference between the various breeding goals and why it matters and influenced my decision. So, at least this forum is getting the word out.

[Shetlander]

Just for the record, Kristen, I never said the comments were hostile. I said they weren't helpful to the cause. Honestly, that is all I was trying to say.

 

And, Julie, consider the messenger killed. Jeez. I honestly don't know where I said the communication problems were all on working people's side. I talked about comments that were unhelpful in changing a sports person's mind about how dogs should be bred. I didn't think I accused anyone of anything and I wasn't trying to infuriate you. I have hardly been on these boards over the past year. Probably better that way...

[bcnewe2]

I don't agree that its harder, you just have to do more than research and believe what's on the web (shiny bright web pages ). Show up at a trial and someone will either help or point you in the right direction. Find these boards and you are well on your way to finding working breeders.

The problem as I see it, is deciding this time its ok if you get the wrong dog. It's here, needs a home,etc. (and I'm not talking rescue only buying from breeders)

But if you come here looking for approval or justification you aren't going to find it. And once you find these boards you have already begun enlightenment to the breed wars. So then you are making a conscious decision that won't be approved of here, but people still try and explain or defend why it was ok this time.

There are lots of people who start out wrong. For lots of reasons. But don't expect to get approval here, information, but not approval. A mistake is something you make when you don't know better. Or sometimes because you don't understand, but to justify a mistake says to me you know better and don't care.

All dogs are good dogs, no matter what the breeding is and worthy of our love. But unless bred of working stock they aren't a border collie and are adding to the issues at hand.

Confusing, maybe, but that comes when you add the love and emotions we have for our personal dogs and feelings get hurt when someone doesn't understand its about the breed, not their personal dog.

 

Like the poster that said she got a great dog from the breeder that was mentioned. She was defending her dog and its family. Not the breed. Now, after this and lots of other posts, she either knows and understands or has decided she stands in the other camp. Her choice, but she now knows the deal.

[juliepoudrier]

I don't think she represented the issue as all that, just that if you use A as part of an argument why you are right, and A is not universally true, fewer people will listen to your argument (which she has clearly said is a good one that she supports).

For the last time, I repeat that I don't think most working dog breeders are using "A" as part of their argument, even though Liz implied that they did and you are trying to support her argument. That's the freaking nit I'm picking! I bolstered that point by noting that the folks, in this thread at least, who were quoted to make Liz's point are not working dog people. How can someone argue a point that is based on a false premise (the premise being that working dog people aren't going to attract sports people if even part of their approach involves denigrating sport dogs, even though it is pretty clear here that the people repeating the myth that alienates the sports folk are at least in part sports folk)? If a bunch of working dog people jumped into threads like this and posted about crazy sports dogs then I wouldn't have a leg to stand on, but that doesn't seem to be the case here. Both sports and working folk in this thread (and others if my memory serves) have related experiences of perfectly calm sports dogs and crazed sports dogs and the consensus seems to be that there are at least some people that *encourage* such behavior in their dogs but that this is not universal. No one is arguing otherwise.

 

Anyway, I'll give up now. It's pretty clear to me that I cannot make myself understood here.

 

J.

[mum24dog]

Just for the record, Kristen, I never said the comments were hostile. I said they weren't helpful to the cause. Honestly, that is all I was trying to say.

 

And, Julie, consider the messenger killed. Jeez. I honestly don't know where I said the communication problems were all on working people's side. I talked about comments that were unhelpful in changing a sports person's mind about how dogs should be bred. I didn't think I accused anyone of anything and I wasn't trying to infuriate you. I have hardly been on these boards over the past year. Probably better that way...

 

Don't go.

 

I meet the same problem you identified. How can I persuade someone with a sports bred dog that is perfect for them that they could do better than what they have? How can you tell someone black is white when their experience tells them otherwise?

 

Personal experience is a more reliable measure than what someone may have told you whichever side of the divide you fall. Myths are perpetuated on both sides and they help no one's case.

 

And most people are not interested at all in the bigger picture. Why should they be when it doesn't impinge on their lives or the lives of their particular social group?

 

I know a very few people who went from working/rescue dogs to trying sports bred then reverted to working/rescue because the sports bred dog(s) didn't work out as well as they thought, but they aren't the norm by any means.

[alligande]

I am one of those who posted about sports dogs being less in control, I am a sports person.. My observations comes from chatting to people at trials, I am the type who will chat to anyone when stood in line, our dogs are peeing together, etc and of course the topic is always our dogs... I have a dog that AKC folk like the looks of (he is backyard farm bred) so I get asked about him all the time, and not just for his looks he is very laid back out of the ring, but in the ring is as driven and as fast a dog anyone would want... It is then they tell me about their dog... I don't do AKC these observations are from USDAA trials where there is a mix of working bred dogs, sports dogs and AKC dogs. The question then becomes is it training that creates a laid back dog, or is it breeding, in my own case a combination of the two, which I am sure appiles to all dogs. He arrived as a laid back puppy, and I have never done anything to discourage it... I don't rev my dog up before the start if I did I would zero control.. I watch handlers with many many more experience than me get their dogs high as kite and it just does not make sense.. You need a dog with focus and drive to get round an agility course.

 

To be honest I have never really heard the observation that you should not get a working bred dog because of its behaviour, most of the people I know who have a sports bred dog it is because they liked the parents and got a puppy. From my own life I would say that comment applies to Border Collies in general, as that is what I hear when I am about with my dogs. Personaly I think a golden retriever would be harder to live with!!!!

[mum24dog]

 

To be honest I have never really heard the observation that you should not get a working bred dog because of its behaviour

 

Our club does demos - next week at Cartmel Fair in South Lakeland which will be visited by a good number of tourists. At our demos we do advise people against getting a BC if all they want is a nice calm and obedient family pet and what we mean is don't follow the next farm gate sign for a litter for sale and expect to get a dog that comes ready trained.

 

We get to pick up the pieces when people do that and find they have bitten off more than they can chew. "My dog is chasing everything that moves - I thought I'd try agility."

 

In practice we are advising against working bred dogs because the majority of people round here buy their BCs from farms if they don't rescue. It's not prejudice, just experience of real life here. I don't know anyone who breeds BCs for pet homes and sport breeders really don't figure on the BC radar locally. A clueless member of the public almost certainly wouldn't get a pup from a sport breeder anyway. It's not that we think they would be a better bet for a potential new BC owner than a working bred dog, just that we don't need to consider them as part of the picture.

 

Plenty of people do have perfect pets from a farm background, I know, but most BCs that end up in rescue are also from the same background. Anyone who knows what they may be taking on is free to ignore our advice.

 

And of course we do tell people to consider an older rescue where they have a better idea of what sort of dog they would be taking on.

[alligande]

 

Our club does demos - next week at Cartmel Fair in South Lakeland which will be visited by a good number of tourists. At our demos we do advise people against getting a BC if all they want is a nice calm and obedient family pet and what we mean is don't follow the next farm gate sign for a litter for sale and expect to get a dog that comes ready trained.

I was refering to the debate between getting a pet/sports bred collie versus working bred, I also spend lots of time like many of us telling people that while my dogs are well behaved they don't come this way and requires lots of input... As you say don't get a collie if you want a family pet who just wants to hang, and play ball occasionally.