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Getting puppy, look like a reliable breeder?


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Also if you really feel that you don't need the total package or want the "Border Collie Lite" version there are hundreds of those dogs in shelters and rescue. I have one. She is an awesome dog. Sure there are a couple BC pieces missing and she'll never make a farm chore dog but she is sweet, active, smart dog that wants to DO something and is currently in training for SAR work.

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Also if you really feel that you don't need the total package or want the "Border Collie Lite" version there are hundreds of those dogs in shelters and rescue. I have one. She is an awesome dog. Sure there are a couple BC pieces missing and she'll never make a farm chore dog but she is sweet, active, smart dog that wants to DO something and is currently in training for SAR work.

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Also if you really feel that you don't need the total package or want the "Border Collie Lite" version there are hundreds of those dogs in shelters and rescue. I have one. She is an awesome dog. Sure there are a couple BC pieces missing and she'll never make a farm chore dog but she is sweet, active, smart dog that wants to DO something and is currently in training for SAR work.

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However, I believe that I got the exact right dog for me.

This ^^

It escaps me as to how many miss the whole point. IT'S NOT ABOUT THE DOG, IT'S ABOUT THE BREEDER!

 

You are supporting a breeder that will help ruin our particular breed and in the end, had dogs that suffered in the makings of her kennel lines(Mary Ann Harrison and Richard Swafford).

 

People get so caught up in the love and worthiness of their personal dog. IT'S NOT ABOUT YOUR DOG! Stand back and see the whole picture. Not the tiny close up of your cherished dog.

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However, it is our belief that people who breed with no regard for the working ability, who breed foremost for pretty colors or agility or conformation or whatever, and who carelessly let all the generations of specifically-selected working ability dangle somewhere forgotten off the DNA strand ... are doing a terrible disservice to the breed. They are deliberately diluting what savvy men and women on farms and ranches across uncounted years devoted their lives to create.

 

If you have ever watched so-called AKC "herding" and compared that to the sheer magnificence of a dog doing what he is bred to do at 400 yards or more, you would see they are nearly different species. The "herding instinct" was developed over centuries, but it can dilute and fade and disappear in as little as three or four generations.

 

So, that's the outlook here. Pet dogs, agility dogs, service dogs, SAR dogs, lap-sitters, goose-getters and pot-lickers are all fine. But breeding such dogs with no consideration for the working ability that defines the border collie is not.

 

 

 

 

 

 

^^Exactly!!!

 

I used to have working dogs and a small flock of sheep. Never trialed, but my dogs were from working lines and they worked almost daily.

 

That was many years ago and my life has changed dramatically. The dogs I have now are rescues. One of them, a purebred BC, is a perfect example of breedng for reasons other than working ability being a detriment to the breed.

 

He has many, many BC characteristics, but little interest in sheep. He's a wonderful dog, and very handsome. :rolleyes: He works as a therapy dog.

 

But when people are gushing over him and ask what kind of dog he is, I'm always very quick to tell them that while he's an amazing dog, he's a lousy border collie, not worth the air he breathes, and should never have been bred. It gives me the opportunity to explain to a lot of people who think BCs are great and that they might want one just how important it is to either look to rescues or if they're set on buying a pup, to only purchase from good working lines.

 

If he's helped me to sway even one person away from the badly bred dogs, well then, I guess maybe Bodhi's done some small service to his breed after all. ;)

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This is fair week and I have some sheep there but will post Tommy pictures after the fair. Just a few minutes while heating dinner.

 

BTW on this thread, if it looks like a duck it should quack like a duck. With the working Border Collie, that 'duck' can have a varied appearance, but they all quack or frankly they are not ducks.

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I am going to continue to read and learn and hopefully find somewhere I could take him to see how he stacks up. I can appreciate the differences in companion border collies and working stock border collies. I wish there was someone in my area who could give me an objective opinion of where Scout falls. I don't have anything to compare him too. And I don't have the knowledge myself to say. I did talk to a rescue before I got Scout and they indicated that the main reason they have dogs to re-home is because people buy these dogs without knowing what they are getting into. They definitely steered me towards a -for lack of a better word-lower drive dog. Again, without any other dog to compare him too, I don't feel qualified to say how he stacks up. I do appreciate the comments that have been left. They do have me thinking a little differently about things. I am not sorry that this little guy has entered my life in any way shape or form but I think I have a better understanding of the issues people raised about breeders.

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I think what you aren't understanding is that saying you regret buying a dog from a particular breeder is NOT the same thing as saying you regret owning the dog. We've all made mistakes. I had a dog from a less than stellar breeder that I loved to death. I regret making the mistake of purchasing from that breeder, but I never, even for a second, regretted owning the dog. I learned from my experience and moved on.

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I agree with Liz, we've probably done something that we are not proud of but we have to learn from it and move forward. My first border collie is a MAH dog. There, I said it. She is my heart dog. Beautiful, smart, a bomb-proof temperament with kids and adults, wonderful working dog, etc (with heart-breaking hip dysplasia). Would I ever go back to MAH for another dog? Heck no! My next dog was from 2 USBCHA open level working dogs who is also an awesome dog and I know I supported the working border collie. I read and took sheep work lessons and I learned.

 

I don't for one second regret owning Carlie, but I do regret that money that went into MAH's pocket. I have since fostered many dogs for rescue, several we suspect coming from here, that I hope redeems me somewhat.

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Man this whole thread makes me feel terrible. I was given my BC from someone who no longer wanted her. I highly doubt he bought her from a reputable breeder. I feel bad that I didn't get a dog from a reputable breeder so I could support them and what this group stands for. Also, makes me wonder what I am missing out on... :unsure:

Did you not get that this group also stands for rescue? People who take in dogs that would otherwise not have a home are wonderful and to be praised for their compassion. That isn't at all the same thing as giving money to people so that they can breed even more dogs that they shouldn't even be breeding in the first place.

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And although I sound like a broken record, I think I need to repeat this: None of us who support the working border collie and working border collie breeders care what you do with your dog. We don't require that every border collie owner take his/her dog to work stock. What we dream of is a world in which people at least understand that the traits that were selected for the excellent stock working dog are the selfsame traits that attract people to the breed, no matter what their ultimate pursuit (or non-pursuit). is with their dog.

 

The genetics that make an excellent working dog (and those genetics include all the wonderful traits we all love, for one reason or another) are complex and interrelated. You have to select for that working ability in every generation or the genes will begin to drift away from the work and toward something else. Once they are gone, you can't get them back. Once breeders have succeeded in flooding us with wonderful candy-colored pets, the dog we call the border collie will be but a ghost of that dog we'll all remember as the best dog we ever knew. Oh they'll be pretty and they'll be nice pets, but they won't have that special somewhat intangible something (which is the direct result of breeding strictly for working ability) that makes a border collie a border collie.

 

It's frustrating to many of us that people don't seem to realize this and seem to refuse to recognize that same drift that has happened in so many other breeds (those who no longer are capable of doing what they were meant to do in the first place, and many of whom now have health issues that are breed-wide). That's why you'll get comments regarding simply getting another breed if you (the general you) doesn't want to experience or live with all of the traits that make up the real border collie, the working border collie (which, by the way, is perfectly capable of living an urban lifestyle with children and no livestock to work).

 

But I know the flood tide is working against the working border collie, as it has all with all the very popular breeds that have gone before. How sad.

 

J.

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But I know the flood tide is working against the working border collie, as it has all with all the very popular breeds that have gone before. How sad.

 

It is very sad, but I, for one, don't believe we'll ever loose the real working border collie as long as there are people such as the majority of us here who remain steadfast in breeding for true working ability.

 

But (and this is a pretty big but), there will be a great schism between real working border collies and the other so-called border collies (aka Barbie Collies -- actually, this is why I've stopped capitalizing "border collies" to distinguish between the working dogs and the show/sport/color bred can't-bear-to-type-the-registry "Border Collies"). Just like the red field setters that devolved into the now better known Irish Setters, to give just one example, there will be two distinct breeds with little or no cross breeding between the two, and, I suspect, one of us (most likey us, the original working BC folks) will end up changing the name somehow to make the disctinction clear.

 

I really wish the AKC (there, I made myself type it :angry: ) had agreed back in the days of the Dog Wars (as if they're over. HA!) to call the Border Collies they were co-opting something else. It would have made things a little easier, at least.

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.... I do think I have a better understanding of what this board has been trying to explain to me. And I don't disagree with it. ... In all honesty though, I would have missed out on the joy of owning one of these dogs if this type of breeder wasn't out there because I wouldn't be able to meet the needs of a dog that didnt have some diluted breed characteristics......

 

That, my dear, is where you and a lot of people are mistaken. Diluting the working ability in border collies does not make them a better companion dog. It just makes them a different dog. If people want to breed dogs that aren't really border collies ... then they should go breed golden retrievers or some darned thing!

 

The point is, the "needs" of a working-bred border collie are simply the needs of any active, intelligent dog who is bred for physical endurance and keen mental acumen. They need training, teaching and time with their people.

 

Your lifestyle, with jogging and dog sports and outdoor activities would be perfect for any working bred border collie. They don't require livestock. If you train them, work with them and give generously of your time, they become every bit the good citizen your present dog is. I have three young working-bred border collies in my house right this moment. They are all asleep around the office floor. Granted, the one-year-old I have in for a few weeks' training gets her attacks of evening zoomies and she does require a good deal of governance and attention, but that's what ANY young border collie should have. They aren't meant to just lay around the back yard all day.

 

I have to wonder if some of these non-working breeders aren't kind of fostering the idea that their "diluted" border collies are better pets and companions, because they don't "need" to work livestock. If so ... that's a falsehood as well as a damned shame.

 

And that is precisely why the folks of this forum are so adamantly against those who knowingly breed away from the working ability. To deliberately create diluted versions of a working breed is to dilute the gene pool of the breed itself. How many fat, waddling labradors do you see? Yet once they were premeir bird dogs. How many brainless, hyper red setters do you see? Once they were also a prized hunting dog. Look at English bull dogs. They were once useful farm dogs. Now they can barely breath and can't give birth naturally.

 

When people start breeding away from the purpose for which a breed evolved, they create something else entirely, and that once-useful purpose is left far, far behind. If breeders don't want what a breed IS, they should go find something else that does suit their ideal - and leave our working dogs alone.

 

Those shepherds lived their hard, honest lives with dogs as their companions and right hands. The hills and fells and windy slopes and flocks of half-wild sheep created the dogs that come down to us today. Those of us who go to the post on the trial field or better yet, go out in the morning to do the farm's work with those good dogs beside them are walking on the bones of generations before us.

 

Obviously I feel passionatly about this, but here's the thing: the border collie is still a "living" breed. He is not a dog who comes from roots and purpose that no longer exist. He deserves better. He deserves to not be diluted into a pale shadow of himself.

 

And that, I think, is all I'm gonna say about that.

 

Do enjoy your good little dog, Jennie. Love him and have a good life with him. But please don't ever think that because you don't take your dog to livestock, you therefore should have a "diluted" version of the border collie. The fact is, it just ain't so.

Respectfully,

 

Gloria

 

 

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The other thing to remember is that many of us have dogs that will never see sheep, its is not an important or essential part of having a border collie, but we do support the idea that if we were to a get a puppy from a breeder rather than a rescue/craigs list/hand me down then we would only support someone who breeds for the sole reason of working ability.

 

There is a lot of myth about drive, my own dog is a rescue but I know was farm bred, he has a huge amount of drive and intensity for our chosen sport, agility as well as everything in life, but bring him home and he is a couch potato.. ready to go at a moments notice but happy to chill when its that time, but always very intense. Most of the insane collie I have met are sports bred, they just don't seem to have the chill button, the working bred ones just seem saner. Most working dogs are not on the go all the time, there is lots of down time between their work.

 

Edited:

I posted this without realizing there was a page 4.... I think I have just touched on what everyone else has added elequently.. Love your dog but think about where your next dog comes from as you enjoy learning about this amazing breed, because you will want another!!!

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I will absolutely have another some day. My city caps you at 3 dogs so I have a couple years until I can. At the moment I am leaning towards a rescue, but who knows what I will decide when it's time. I will do more research when it's time. It's hard for the average person to find out all the necessary information. I thought I did a pretty good job researching the breed and making sure he would fit in with my family but apparently I didn't do enough.

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I think it can be really hard, particularly when you are starting out, to find a good breeder that not only makes good breeding decisions but is also an ethical person - and, in addition, will place a pup or young dog in a non-working home. I actually did not do research but found a breeder via sheepdog demos, and thought (for some years) that I was dealing with someone that I could recommend to others along with getting future animals for ourselves. I learned through trial-and-error, and through many contacts I made, that what I thought was a breeder I could and should support, was not really the kind of breeder I thought he/she was. It took me a long time to put a lot of information and observation together, and a long time to accept that I had not made the right decision.

 

Let me add that I do believe there are a number of "red flag" breeders who honestly think they are producing quality pups and don't feel they are doing anything harmful to the breed and its future, and who are ethical people. They just may be misguided and ignorant, and I have certainly been there (may still be there) myself (not as a breeder, just as a person).

 

That said, we have absolutely loved the pups (and the dogs they grew to be) - but I will do better to patronize and support a breeder whose program and ethics both benefit the working Border Collie as a breed and are in line with what I feel is right and responsible.

 

If you have questions (in the future), you can always ask here and also ask for opinions through private messages. Sometimes people are more forthcoming in a less-public setting.

 

I will absolutely have another some day. My city caps you at 3 dogs so I have a couple years until I can. At the moment I am leaning towards a rescue, but who knows what I will decide when it's time. I will do more research when it's time. It's hard for the average person to find out all the necessary information. I thought I did a pretty good job researching the breed and making sure he would fit in with my family but apparently I didn't do enough.

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It can be hard to find a good working dog breeder who will sell pups to "non-working" homes. I even hear that argument here on the boards. I'm not completely sure what the argument against selling pups amounts to. I know Jack Knox sells to non-working people. He sold a pup to me and my dogs just live at home with me. He said that they don't tell people what to do with their pups. I'm sure that he keeps the pups he thinks will be exceptional workers back to sell to serious working people. And I don't see anything wrong with that. And chances are that someone who pays a good price for a puppy will take good care of it.

 

It would seem to me that it would be better for breeders of good working dogs to go ahead and sell to non-working homes. It would help keep a better quality of the dogs out there in the agility and obedience world.

 

As for being able to live with a working bred dog. Mine are all working bred and they just live at home with me. I do have a big back yard so they get a lot of exercise. I would hate to try and raise one of these dogs with no yard. But I kind of feel that way about a lot of dogs - not just border collies. Just taking any larger dog for a walk every day is not nearly enough exercise. I think there are lots of breeds that are more active than border collies. I take care of labs and goldens that are way worse than my dogs ever were.

 

I haven't really been around sports bred dogs but I have heard from reputable people that some of them are just insane to live with. Just look at the names they have - names that connote serious intensity and speed.

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I haven't really been around sports bred dogs but I have heard from reputable people that some of them are just insane to live with.

 

No more so than some working bred dogs IME.

 

You get the whole range of temperament and behaviour in both.

 

If an owner wants or allows a dog to be crazy likely it will be, wherever it came from. If an owner sets consistent boundaries it probably won't.

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I will say what I've mentioned in another thread, which is usually the reason sport bred border collies are so insane to live with is not their breeding but the fact that the owner raises them convinced they must be crazy to be good agility dogs. I have seen the 'wannabe' type people tend to have the craziest dogs, whereas the actual good handlers don't have dogs that are frothing at the mouth. I know of working bred agility dogs hat have been raised to be like that, and are just as crazed as the crazy sport bred ones.

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I will absolutely have another some day. My city caps you at 3 dogs so I have a couple years until I can. At the moment I am leaning towards a rescue, but who knows what I will decide when it's time. I will do more research when it's time. It's hard for the average person to find out all the necessary information. I thought I did a pretty good job researching the breed and making sure he would fit in with my family but apparently I didn't do enough.

 

Please do consider rescue. There are loads of great dogs in rescue, that ended up their only because people didn't do their research when picking out a breed. Don't be afraid to look at something older than a pup either.

 

I am herding with my rescued BC and she knows far more about it than I do! We also compete in agility and the dreaded flyball. She really does enjoy a bit of mindless chaos now and then.

 

Gina and Abbey

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I will say what I've mentioned in another thread, which is usually the reason sport bred border collies are so insane to live with is not their breeding but the fact that the owner raises them convinced they must be crazy to be good agility dogs. I have seen the 'wannabe' type people tend to have the craziest dogs, whereas the actual good handlers don't have dogs that are frothing at the mouth. I know of working bred agility dogs hat have been raised to be like that, and are just as crazed as the crazy sport bred ones.

 

I agree. I see alot of sport people out there that think their dog has to be bouncing off the ceiling in order to be fast. I always wonder just how much faster they'd be if they focused their energy where it should be focused. My dog loves doing her job no matter what it is and doesn't need to be torqued up or rewarded with a toy.

 

Gina and Abbey

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I have seen the 'wannabe' type people tend to have the craziest dogs, whereas the actual good handlers don't have dogs that are frothing at the mouth.

 

I totally agree.

 

Successful handlers are those with control over their dogs, and not just in the ring.

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Most of the insane collie I have met are sports bred, they just don't seem to have the chill button, the working bred ones just seem saner.

 

I haven't really been around sports bred dogs but I have heard from reputable people that some of them are just insane to live with. Just look at the names they have - names that connote serious intensity and speed.

 

 

If I did not frequent these boards, I would think the exact opposite of the quotes above. That working dogs were the insane, out of control, no off switch dogs. I was told as much when I was looking for a Border Collie eight years ago. No surprise since I had sought advice from my fellow sports people who had no real experience with working dogs and were operating on their prejudices or what they themselves had been told.

 

I’ve only minimally been around true working bred dogs. They seem great but I can't describe what they are like to live with because my time was mainly spent watching them work. On the other hand, I have spent a lot of time with sports bred dogs and the majority of them are wonderful companions. Some of them have those intense/speedy names. Quinn had an uncle named Mayhem. Some of them are very wound up at sporting events. But a dog that is so amped up, he can’t take direction or exercise self control isn’t prized by sports people who seek both drive and biddability. At home, these dogs usually can flake out with the best couch potato, though they are always ready for adventure.

 

My point (I might as well get to it) is not that dogs should be bred for anything but work. Rather, one of the places I see the conversation breaking down between working and sports people, is when sports people are told their dogs, unlike working bred dogs, have no off switch and are difficult to live with. That is not our experience. A big reason it is an uphill battle to get sports people to consider working bred dogs is because, by and large, they are extremely happy with their sports bred models. They do well in the ring, they’re great at home and are just very fun dogs.

 

Anyway, I think the argument to breed for working ability is strongest when it sticks to what makes working bred dogs special and why those working traits need to be preserved through correct breeding. It only distracts and alienates at least some of your audience you hope to reach when there are references to what makes sports bred dogs inferior, especially when comments do not match people’s real life experience.

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I will absolutely have another some day. My city caps you at 3 dogs so I have a couple years until I can. At the moment I am leaning towards a rescue, but who knows what I will decide when it's time. I will do more research when it's time. It's hard for the average person to find out all the necessary information. I thought I did a pretty good job researching the breed and making sure he would fit in with my family but apparently I didn't do enough.

 

 

It's honestly not your fault, Jennie. The information that's readily available to John Q Public regarding border collies is often written by those who are farthest from the working world. Everyone is cautioned against trying to make backyard house pets out of BCs, that they must have a "job" and may not be suitable for families with small children and etc. Much of it is true, of course!

 

But it's often presented in such a way that, like you, the layman comes easily to the conclusion, "Wow, if border collies are so much work and need so much care/excercise/training, I'd be better off with one that's not really meant for work." It seems logical. I mean, that same logic says that if I want a horse but I don't plan to do endurance racing or 3 day eventing, golly, I'd probably do best to avoid an Arab or a Thoroughbred, right?

 

The truth about border collies is often hard to find, lost behind the shiny, eye-catching facade of the AKC and popular pet magazines. We here do our best to inform, but it has to be one person at a time. But that one person is golden, when we do reach them, because they in turn can (hopefully) inform others. After all, we all started somewhere. :)

 

~ Gloria

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