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Is snarkiness an acceptable breed trait?


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I have always heard that female BCs can be snarky (aka bitchy!). That people don't want females because of the bitchiness. I've heard of people having to rehome one of the females because they were being bitchy to each other. I've also seen people knowingly breed a snarky female.

 

My question is, why has this trait become acceptable? Or has it? I have always had females, two-four at a time, and have never had a snarky/bitchy one. Until now. ;-) The breeder of the one I have now acknowledges the dam is snarky - says she likes them tough. Obviously she's not the only one, as I've heard and seen many snarky females over the years from all sorts of lines (working, sport, show, etc).

 

Personally, I would never breed a snarky dog as it's not a trait I like. Do most BC females have a snarky side to them?

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I have a rescue female, who is snarky, in part due to anxiety and in part because she is a bitch. She is powerful and she knows it.

 

I don't think that the trait is acceptable. I've spoken to breeders and perspective breeders. Some think that the snarkiness is the owner's fault, so the dog is given a pass and bred. Other's think that the good points of their baby overshadow the snarkiness.

 

I personally would not buy from a breeding where there was snarkiness in the parents or immediate relative or in siblings.

 

I suppose that if it was a world class bitch, I would condone breeding her , but the people who I know of who are breeding these dogs or considering breeding these dogs don't compete at close to that level.

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The absolute worst cases of bitch/bitch aggression I have seen were in German Shepherds, terriers (esp JRTs), pit bulls and mixed breed dogs. I've seen and heard of cases with Border Collies, but not so often that I would say it's a problem in the breed. Every dog is an individual and there are a wide range of personalities in every breed. I did sell a bitch who was too rude/snarky for my own taste (couldn't stand living with her), but I owned and have since purchased relatives and not had any problems.

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The absolute worst cases of bitch/bitch aggression I have seen were in German Shepherds, terriers (esp JRTs)

 

 

This has been my experience as well, except the terriers were Smooth Fox Terriers rather than JRT's. Something as seemingly innocuous as a doorbell could set them off and at each other. The GSD was American lines. I really dislike having to deal with snarkiness; it is part of the reason I decided to forego the GSD I looked into before I got Hannah.

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I think it depends on her work ethic whether she should be bred. It has been said that if the dog is an outstanding (notice outstanding) worker that the temperment off the field is ignored.

 

I have a couple snarky ones; The granddam was definately bitchy although others in that line are not. We watch her carefully because she can definately be snarky. I don't think it is my socialization technique because my other dogs are not bitchy.

 

I've heard bitch fights are worse. I've one dog badly injured but it was a 2 bitches and a dog that did the damage.

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Snarkiness is a resultof genes and environment. Simply put, if the dog is born with a potential for good temperment and is in situations where she has learned that being snarky gets her things she values, then she will be snarky. Same with male dogs.

 

However if the bitch has a very poor temperment and has had good associations, good socialization, then why breed her?

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Snarkiness is a resultof genes and environment. Simply put, if the dog is born with a potential for good temperment and is in situations where she has learned that being snarky gets her things she values, then she will be snarky. Same with male dogs.

 

However if the bitch has a very poor temperment and has had good associations, good socialization, then why breed her?

 

 

Pam, i think she would have to be a very good worker in my books in order to breed her or to buy a puppy from her.

 

And very poor temperment is subjective. If she just doesn't like other dogs in her face versus hunting down and attacking unsuspecting children (ok a bit extreme!) there is a huge difference. And I agree a very poor temperment should not be bred. I would expect it would come across in her work ethic...although perhaps not

 

Cynthia

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I don't think snarkiness has become acceptable per se, but I do think that people are probably more inclined to accept snarkiness out of a bitch because they expect bitches to be bitchy. There are also degrees of snarkiness, and it's unclear from your post just how bad your youngster is. Some of mine grumble at each other and snark on occasion, but I have just one that outsiders might consider truly snarky and I don't know that I'd call her that. She has been allowed to get away with certain behaviors (by a certain someone) and when she engages in those behaviors with the other dogs, they don't like it and let her know, and this sometimes results in fights. The behavior annoys me and I correct it when I see it. Would I not breed her if she turns out to be an exceptional worker? I think I would breed her. It's easy enough to describe her personality to potential puppy buyers.

 

Buyers should ask of a breeder questions about the temperaments of the parents, relatives, etc to determine what you're likely to get in a pup. Of course there are no guarantees. The close relatives of most of my dog generally have very nice temperaments, but there have been a few who were rather dog aggressive. I'm not convinced that the aggressiveness is entirely genetic. That is, I suspect the propensity for such behavior might be genetic, but nurture plays a role in whether it's manifested (or not).

 

In the case of my youngster, the behavior manifests itself when she is highly aroused (when exciting things are going on), so I just manage the situation to reduce the arousal.

 

J.

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they expect bitches to be bitchy.

 

OK, so that's what I'm wondering ... WHY have people allowed this over the years? Why has it gotten to a point where it's acceptable for females to be bitchy? I imagine a lot of it has to do with working ability trumping what, at the time, were likely somewhat minor behavior faults.

 

At what point does snarkiness in today's dog become aggression in future dogs?

 

 

p.s. Julie - if they're inclined to accept it, then it's become acceptable. ;-)

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I guess what I'm wondering is why you think it's more of a problem *now* than in years past? My point was that you're thinking it's *become* acceptable, but I think it's likely always been that way. You perhaps just didn't notice until you became the owner of a snarky dog yourself?

 

IME snarkiness, male or female, usually revolves around specific interdog relationships. A bitch may be snarky with another dog in the pack, but not all other dogs in the pack. My Pip is one of the most easygoing dogs on the planet, and yet he *does not* like Farleigh. So he's snarky toward him. I wouldn't label Pip as generally snarky, but he is snarky toward one individual dog, and Mr. Sweetness around everyone else. It's the same with my females. Twist tends toward snarkiness when I'm preparing meals and if someone knocks into her (understandable given that it *hurts* her when another dog smacks into her--she's been hit by livestock enough times over the years to rightfully take exception to dogs plowing into her). Would I consider her generally snarky? No. But in certain situations she is. I imagine these examples are a better illustration of the day-to-day snarkiness most of us deal with.

 

So are you talking about a dog with issues like the above, or a dog who is all snark all the time? Although I correct the snarky behavior (except Twist telling other dogs to stay out of her space) mentioned above, none of it is an overwhelming part of our existence and I wouldn't even remark on it normally.

 

As I stated earlier I also think a lot has to do with management. That's why I mentioned my youngster's snarky behavior when aroused/excited. If normal daily management includes times that encourage arousal, then you'd be likely to see more snarky behavior as well.

 

So maybe you need to better define what you mean by snarkiness.

 

J.

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I don't know if it's more of a problem now or not, but I do know I've had BCs for about 15 years now and have always heard the females could be snarky. I'm sure I always wondered why it was acceptable, but didn't really pay much attention since none of my dogs were.

 

I've only been thinking about it recently because a friend is rehoming her dog due to bitch-bitch aggression (both BCs). I don't know if it's "snarkiness" or aggression, and really I don't think there's a clear distinction between the two sometimes (with some of the higher levels of snarkiness). If it's tolerable, is that snarkiness? Or if it's only between certain dogs? What is everyone else's definition of snarkiness?

 

I think of snarkiness as a general bitchiness, like wearing an F-U sign to other dogs, whether it's certain dogs or certain types of dogs or all dogs. There are different levels, from a grumpy growly dog up to snapping and leaving marks. I think the higher levels blur the lines into aggression though.

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My snarky female has never punched a hole in another dog as long as I have owned her. In her case, the behavior means "stay the hell away". I don't think that I've ever seen her snark at another herding dog. It seems as though her whole strategey is designed to avoid unwanted confrontation or physical contact

 

My guess is that snarking seems more prevalant because people are taking their dogs out in public and doing things with them and some of these things are in environments where dogs are aroused to begin with (agility, dog parks, etc). And this behavior is probably tolerated in dogs that have other redeeming traits such as speed and "drive" (or a pretty coat).

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Snarkiness is a resultof genes and environment. Simply put, if the dog is born with a potential for good temperment and is in situations where she has learned that being snarky gets her things she values, then she will be snarky. Same with male dogs.

 

However if the bitch has a very poor temperment and has had good associations, good socialization, then why breed her?

 

 

Not that I can't have an original thought of my own, but I'm lazy, so... This sums it up very nicely IMO.

 

This is interesting to know re: Border Collies and snarkiness, because, although it looks like I lucked out with Hannah, if I add another dog I will probably go with a male just to minimize the possibility of a problem.

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I think snarkiness in bitches is in direct proportion to how much it is permitted. My bitch would love to be bitchy, but I don't allow it. It may be genetically passed on, but I think it's often like when people with male dogs say, "Boys will be boys" when they hump your leg or make a big hairy deal every time someone comes to the door. If you let 'em, they'll do it.

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Hmmmm...I suppose it's possible that it's also related to pack dynamics? What we call snarkiness is social climbing (or hierarchical behavior) in a pack? Is two bitches not getting along true snarkiness, or is it really pack dynamics? Are they similar? For example, the two spayed bitches I had for years were both the top dog in their own homes before they were forced to live together in mine. Did I find their behavior toward one another annoying? Sure, but I also understood that they didn't have a real way to work out the new dynamic since I wasn't going to let them fight it out.

 

There are occasionally posts on this forum by people who have two dogs that don't get along. Personality clash, if you will. I avoid people I don't like, but when we bring together dogs who don't like each other, we don't let them work it out the way the would in the real world, nor do we permanently separate them. How would you feel if the co-worker you had to team up with on projects was someone you couldn't stand? At least you can get away from the person by going home at night.

 

They're dogs. We choose them and put them together in groups not of their choosing, and take them among other dogs that they might not normally desire to interact with. Then we become worried about snarkiness. I think we're actually putting them in situations that can bring out a propensity toward snark, knowingly or not.

 

Should breeders breed snarky females? That depends. On what she's snarky about, how snarky she is, and what her other redeeming qualities might be. As someone else noted, we often overlook some traits because we're eager to get others, and my feeling is that the blame for that doesn't lie solely at the feet of a breeder. For me, the occasionally snarky female isn't quite the same thing as a dog with an all-around poor temperament.

 

J.

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Males can be snarky too.

 

J.

 

 

Oh I am well aware of that. That is why I was careful to use the word "minimize" when I initially started with "rule out". I was a little worried about George (daughter's Greyhound) initially because of that. He can be a real bitch. Thankfully, Hannah is good at negotiating peace.

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WoW !

You are all scaring me. Never even heard the term snarky.

 

I have a female border collie. She came from working dogs.

 

When I went to get her, Her mother was I guess you could call "bitchy". I figured it was because I was taking her puppy.

 

On the other hand the father was the most friendly amazing dog after he felt comfortable with me around.

 

I contacted the breeder about some help along the road (My bc is 9 months now) and she mentioned that they were very happy with the bredding choice they had made with the new male. (my pups father)

 

I am assuming they were trying to breed some of the snarkiness away.

 

Keeva has shown no signs of bitchiness. Stubborness yes.

 

When does snarkyness show uP ?

 

post-13260-015475200 1337979195_thumb.jpg

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My two snarky bitches are both years gone now, but I clearly remember those days. A 70lbs GSD and a 17lbs ACD/rat terrier lived together in peace for well over 7 years. All of a sudden, the ACDx started pestering the GSD. She snapped one day and put holes in the ACDx. After the second trip to the emergency vet, the two were kept separated for the rest of their years. They never so much as looked funny at each other when I was around, but they knew when I wasn't around. Both dogs got along with every other dog they had ever been around, very tolerant of literally hundreds of dogs.

 

Fast forward, The breeder of my first BC recommended males for multidog households. I've got two male BCs that so far are best friends. I won't get a female until my JRT is gone. I don't think you can call what she is such a mild word as snarky and that's with all animals.

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I suppose it's possible that it's also related to pack dynamics? What we call snarkiness is social climbing

[emphasis mine]

Yes, this! The one issue I've had over the years was due to a bitch who was about 2 years younger than my #1 bitch Riddle (and was Riddle's niece, in fact). They were the best of friends and were a great brace team, but as the younger one got older (like about 18 months), she began to spend every waking minute vying for that #1 position. She just couldn't seem to help herself. Over time, she made the whole household miserable, so I eventually sold her. I still miss her.

 

Riddle can be a bit snarky, I guess, but only with those who don't immediately recognize and accept that she is The Queen. As long as everyone recognizes that, she is a fairly benevolent ruler.

 

I've now got 5 females in the house, all related (daughters and granddaughters of Riddle), and the 18 month old started to exhibit a bit of that behavior when she was very young (like 10 weeks)--challenging grandma and not giving it up. I put a stop to it immediately. Much as she would LOVE to move into that top position, she seems to get it that that will not happen while her grandma is still alive. She's waiting...

A

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New to the board and haven't posted but I finally have my own BC now so it's acceptable :)

 

My other breed is the doberman - I wouldn't even say they are snarky, they flat out have dog aggression issues that are so accepted that it's written into the breed standard.

 

My male doberman can train, show, do stays, etc with other males - but he cannot live free with another male, and in fact as he ages he has less and less he will even tolerate from female dogs that he's lived with. I won't let him near my new bc pup (intact male), and he has limited exposure to my youngest dobe bitch because he's also a bully to her. As a youngster he was fine with everyone - at 1 he stopped letting large males eyeball him. At 2 it became any rude dog that tried to mount/challenge him. At 3 he stopped tolerating puppies as well, and at his age (about to turn 7) he doesn't play with most dogs at all because he has such strict rules of engagement (he despises submissive licking, but his size makes most dogs attempt it with him).

 

I expect that there will be some snarkiness in the bc as well (all my dobes, except the youngest have some). His mother can get there (ironically she is one of the dogs my male doberman can tolerate, which is nice since the litter was raised at my house) with pushy bitches. My male hasn't had any issues and he doesn't let the dobes push him around much, but his littermates have had some snarkiness (males that I've seen it with, actually) already towards other dogs.

 

As per people tolerating it, so it becoming more prominent - do you think that part of it is a trained behavior? I admit my male doberman was given way too much laxity when he was younger (at one point he was also an only dog), but he's also a very stubborn, hard dog that will take a correction and could care less. I'm much more strict in my house and pet behaviors now, but I also know that my dogs will be dogs and issues can happen no matter how much you train and plan.

 

I also have a crate and rotate schedule - the youngest dogs spend time crated while the "bigs" are out. And as I said, i make sure my male dobe and male bc never really have contact besides casual sniffs as they walk past each other.

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Honestly, I wouldn't want to be in a situation where I constantly had to manage dog-dog interactions. I realize that sometimes such situations can't be helped, but it would make me unhappy to have to live like that 24/7. I do have snarkiness in my household, don't get me wrong, and certainly before Jill died I would never have left her and Willow alone together while I was gone, but that's not the same as worrying about the dogs taking each other out in my presence. And of course there are the situational snarky behaviors that I mentioned earlier.

 

As I alluded to earlier, and Anna expanded on, I think a lot of (acceptable?) snarkiness revolves around young dogs reaching sexual maturity and then deciding that they may want to change their place within a pack hierarchy. Willow and Jill were always top dogs. Twist didn't become snarky until she reached an age where she thought perhaps she could challenge one or the other of them and maybe gain by it. I didn't allow the social climbing and so was able to keep the peace.

 

I recognize that there are some personalities that just don't get along (it happens with people and other animals too). If one is unfortunate enough to end up with a couple of dogs who truly dislike one another, then crate/rotate is really the only solution if you don't want to rehome a dog.

 

But I would not automatically assume that your male border collie is going to be a troublemaker, so to speak. It really shouldn't be acceptable behavior (as in, one shouldn't say "oh well, it is what it is, so I won't try to stop it"), and if someone is producing a line of dogs who all have snarkiness/temperament/aggressiveness issues, then the breeding program needs to be reevaluated.

 

Again, I suspect that there are both nature and nurture components. Although a breeder can attempt to manage, through breeding, the nature component, there are no guarantees, and it's up to the puppy raiser to do his/her part to contain such behavior should it manifest itself. I would put work ethic and work talent ahead of temperament, within reason, but most people don't want a stellar worker that can't be taken off the farm sans muzzle, so even among working breeders temperament needs to be considered.

 

But I think as breeders breed for more and varied things, some attributes take a back seat. Want a candy color? Super duper drive? Speed up the wazoo? A dog that requires a shock collar to be trained to work cattle? Making those sorts of choices can lead to less than perfect temperaments for sure.

 

But the other side of the coin is the effort the conformation folks have made to create a truly placid dog, and I would no more want one of those than I would an American show GSD. Breeders need to strive for balance; the rest is up to the raisers. And in the end, personality will out. Some of us are a bit antisocial. Some of us are a bit grumpy. Some of us love and are loved by everyone.... We can learn to behave in social situations, even if it goes a bit against our nature (I can schmooze at a party with the best of them, but I don't like having to do it), and I expect it's the same for dogs, although there we humans have to help the dog achieve that.

 

But if I have a youngster showing signs of snarky behavior, I try to nip it in the bud right away. I have one now. She behaves inappropriately toward a couple of my older females, mostly too rough play when aroused/excited. The older females take exception to her overrambunctious behavior and, unfortunately, she doesn't necessarily back down. That's where I step in. Aside from just making sure such altercations don't start in the first place, I make sure to correct her *every time* I see her gearing up to do something that will piss another dog off. It doesn't make me happy to have to do this, but I brought her in to my pack, and now I have to enforce appropriate behavior. (She is also just reaching sexual maturity, but I think most of her bad behavior is the result of my young male--her main playmate--allowing it and then she tries it with the others, who don't like it). But at least right now I will not accept that this is the way it's going to be and I will try to teach her to be more respectful of the elder members of the pack. I've even had to extend that to the young male who lets her get away with murder (correcting her for dragging on his tail, for example, because it can't be pleasant and I don't want her thinking she should try that with the other dogs).

 

J.

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Hmmmm...I suppose it's possible that it's also related to pack dynamics? What we call snarkiness is social climbing (or hierarchical behavior) in a pack? Is two bitches not getting along true snarkiness, or is it really pack dynamics? Are they similar? For example, the two spayed bitches I had for years were both the top dog in their own homes before they were forced to live together in mine. Did I find their behavior toward one another annoying? Sure, but I also understood that they didn't have a real way to work out the new dynamic since I wasn't going to let them fight it out.

 

There are occasionally posts on this forum by people who have two dogs that don't get along. Personality clash, if you will. I avoid people I don't like, but when we bring together dogs who don't like each other, we don't let them work it out the way the would in the real world, nor do we permanently separate them. How would you feel if the co-worker you had to team up with on projects was someone you couldn't stand? At least you can get away from the person by going home at night.

 

They're dogs. We choose them and put them together in groups not of their choosing, and take them among other dogs that they might not normally desire to interact with. Then we become worried about snarkiness. I think we're actually putting them in situations that can bring out a propensity toward snark, knowingly or not.

 

J.

 

Good post.

 

The snarkiest bitch I know is perfect in all other ways - she just doesn't like dogs invading her personal space (nor do I).

 

The other dog in the family was a young good natured dog that was easily managed by her.

 

I saw trouble coming when they got a feisty farm bred bitch puppy. Most of the time they are OK together but they have had fights since the youngster grew up - fights needing vet treatment but not so far potential fights to the death. Two stroppy bitches, both wanting to rule the roost and the situation not helped by the older one needing to have a huge growth removed from her side.

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