bc/aussie lover Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 I am the proud owner of my third Rising Sun dog, all from different breedings. I have noticed a lot of negativity on this Board so I thought I would share my personal experience. My first purchase from Rising Sun was an aussie. When I initially contacted Becky Beckman I had just lost a 4 year old aussie to cancer. I was devastated but I was looking for a particular dog with a particular personality. Becky had only one puppy left and would not sell me this puppy until she checked our my references on the East Coast. I too had checked out Rising Sun and was told by someone I knew and trusted that "she would purchase a Rising Sun dog signt unseen." After checking with people Becky knew, she told me that while this puppy was not what I was looking for in a dog, but "he would get the job done." Well, he certainly did. Mach 2 (halfway to Mach 3 but retired because of an agility injury) Otch Rising Sun's Brush With Fate, UDX (and many more ASCA and USDAA titles under his belt) far surpassed my expectations. You don't get these kinds of titles without good health and stability of temperament! He was the best dog I have ever had the pleasure of owning and loving. He could easily be an ambassador for the breed. I went to Minnesota from New York to pick up my puppy and to check out Rising Sun. I was fully prepared to walk away if I did not like what I saw. I was a total stranger to them but I was invited to their home and was introduced to every dog that they owned. They held nothing back from me and were proud of their dogs. Obviously, I was impressed with what I saw because I went back for more. Rising Sun dogs are in your face friendly and loving as well as good workers. When my son wanted a dog, I suggested he get one from Rising Sun as well and I contacted Becky for him. I had my eye on a particular puppy for my son but Becky asked me "Is this dog for you or for your son?" I told her my son and she replied that "she would then like to speak to my son and find out what he wants in a dog." When my son explained that he just wanted a good family pet, Becky told him the dog your mother picked out is not for you, I suggest a different dog in the litter." She sent him the puppy she picked out. Romeo is a wonderful dog. I also train him in obedience. My part-time dog scored a perfect "200" in novice and will soon have his CDX. My son has an 8 month old and a Yorkie. His Rising Sun dog is as gentle as can be and at the same time a wonderful watchdog. His temperament is stable, he is friendly and loving. You don't get these traits from dogs that are not well-bred. My third Rising Sun dog is a border collie. I again went to Minnesota to pick up my puppy. I was invited to stay at Becky's home (which I did) and I again was shown every dog she had in her possession. I met, played with, fed and interacted with just about every dog she had. Since I am a dog lover, I was in my glory being surrounded by so many dogs. My border collie is still short on accomplishments because he is a puppy. But, I have very high expectations for him. He is smart as a whip, friendly, outgoing and loving. He is the mayor of my neighborhood and would kiss everyone if he could. He walks into a place like he owns it and is as sound as they come. Becky does have more dogs than I could live with. But, considering the amount of dogs she does breed, the small percentage of so-called problem dogs, could happen for a number of reasons not necessarily attributable to a breeder, i.e., poor socialization, lack of training, bad experiences. I certainly would not keep returning to Rising Sun if there had been a problem with any of my dogs. I suggest that anyone who wants a Rising Sun dog should not be deterred by anything that is heard secondhand, they should go and take a look for themselves. You will be impressed--I promise you. My mother always told me "never believe the things you hear and only half the things you see." This advice has always worked for me. Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Hi, Terry and welcome. Sounds like you've got some awesome dogs! The thing which is often misunderstood when the talk here turns to breeders, is that nobody is disparaging the dogs themselves. Nobody is saying ALL Rising Sun dogs are all bad, or full of health and temperament issues. Nobody is saying there aren't nice dogs out there from Rising Sun. For what it's worth, I know a Rising Sun dog that I LOVE. He is a good agility dog, and a really nice dog on stock. I'd steal him in a heartbeat if I could. The problem that folks here have is with the breeding practices. If you read the "read this first" section, it explains what the philosophy is amongst most all board members, that border collies are ONLY bred for one thing: working ability. Obviously, they feel that Rising Sun (and other breeders whose names frequently pop up here) is not breeding border collies for this reason, and this reason alone. I admit, I haven't kept up with the threads and what's been said, but this is the heart of the matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaryP Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 That's not the point. Your border collie may be wonderful and may excel at sports, but "well bred" by this board's philosophy means the dog was bred for working ability (on stock) and, if talented enough, contributes to and improves the gene pool of working (on stock) dogs. Also, you don't need to have a "well bred" dog with good temperament and loves everyone, etc., to excel at sports. You just need a willing dog, a good trainer, and time (and $$) to train and trial with your dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 But, considering the amount of dogs she does breed Nuff said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc/aussie lover Posted May 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 I hope to do herding with my border collie as well so I guess I will have to wait and see how he turns out. Again, I am new to this and have a lot to learn. Thanks for helping me understand your point of view. Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 What I see at Rising Sun is an emphasis on color and multiple litters. The dogs you got might be wonderful individuals, but the breeding practices that produced them are not ones I would condone. Even the worst breeders can produce nice individual dogs, but the fact of those nice dogs don't make the breeder a good one. Eighteen border collie bitches? How can they do any of them justice? (Not counting the male dogs, the aussies, and the bengal cats.) The breeder might be the nicest person in the world, and yes, she's imported some dogs with nice pedigrees, but she's not a breeder I would even begin to consider when looking for a dog. The whole site screams color breeder and small-scale miller to me. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Terry, where do you live? Maybe someone here can give you a lead on a herding trainer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc/aussie lover Posted May 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 I'm in New York but I could go to New Jersey or Pennsylvania. Thanks for being so helpful. I appreciate it. Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynthia P Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Good luck Terry. Check out www.nebca.net for a list of trainers and/or trials near you. some one closer can recommend somone for you. I have looked at Rising Sun as they had a couple of dogs pedigrees I really liked in the past (haven't been there lately) but since she doesn't work her dogs regularly at a open trial type or large ranch type level I wouldn't consider her a working breeder. She does breed for color and no one is saying you can't like a dog of color (I have 2 red/white dogs...the rest are tri's and b/w) but breeding with color in mind is a red flag. I'm glad she has sold you great dogs. And I'm glad you love them to bits! Cynthia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberdog Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Also, you don't need to have a "well bred" dog with good temperament and loves everyone, etc., to excel at sports. You just need a willing dog, a good trainer, and time (and $$) to train and trial with your dog. I disagree with this statement. A neurotic, unhealthy, dog with a poor temperament will not excel at obedience, or agility, no matter how much cash and good training you get. In obedience they must be repeatedly touched by strangers, and deal with other dogs during group exercises. The very nature of dog sports, and dog sports classes, means the dog must be able to deal with lots of new people, dogs, and situations. A fearful, apprehensive dog, as well as a dog that can't think for itself, will flounder in agility as well. On the-other-hand, I think any well-bred working border collie should be able to be transplanted into dog sports without much trouble. The ingredients are all there; not mentioning the health benefits you get from using working lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 I disagree with this statement. A neurotic, unhealthy, dog with a poor temperament will not excel at obedience, or agility, no matter how much cash and good training you get. In obedience they must be repeatedly touched by strangers, and deal with other dogs during group exercises. The very nature of dog sports, and dog sports classes, means the dog must be able to deal with lots of new people, dogs, and situations. Tell that to our BC that will be competing in a Championship agility class on Saturday. Noone could accuse him of having a good temperament and yet he has got to the top grade in agility. If he hadn't had the opportunity to focus on agility he could well have been dead by now. Obedience just wouldn't be interesting enough to hold his attention. We would dearly love him to be the sort of dog that can deal easily with the things you describe but he just isn't - he's darned hard work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Cyberdog, I agree in general with your second paragraph, although I wouldn't say "any". I'd say "most". However, regarding your first statement, I know plenty of border collies that do very well at agililty, and yet have questionable temperaments. Both with people and/or other dogs. *shrugs* A fearful, apprehensive dog, as well as a dog that can't think for itself, will flounder in agility as well. Huh. Interesting. My noise sensitive, shy, apprehensive dog seems to do pretty well in agility. I mean, we're not making the World Team, but we're far from floundering, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaryP Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 I disagree with this statement. A neurotic, unhealthy, dog with a poor temperament will not excel at obedience, or agility, no matter how much cash and good training you get. I didn't say anything about a neurotic or unhealthy dog. Of course you aren't going to take a dog with serious behavioral or health issues and put it into a situation that it can't handle mentally or physically and expect it to do well. I said that a dog does not have to be "well-bred" with a good temperament and a love of all people to do dog sports (and I wasn't thinking obedience; I don't do obedience and know next to nothing about it. I was thinking more about the physical sports. My bad.). I don't consider my dog to be well-bred. I suspect that he is byb. He doesn't like unknown dogs in his personal space (which he has defined) and will react if they don't heed his warning. He is also often shy with unknown people and will submissively urinate - usually all over their feet. I know plenty of reactive dogs and dogs with fear issues that compete successfully in sports. There are two (one fearful and one reactive) in my small agility club alone. Both compete and are very successful. My point was simply that you don't need a "well-bred" dog with stellar temperament to earn impressive titles. I know plenty of mutts and dogs from unknown or non-working breedings that pocket lots of ribbons and titles. My own poorly bred dog has lots of talent (and lots of ribbons and titles), but will likely never earn a championship title. We just don't do enough trials every year and he's getting older now. Also, he was my first agility dog, so I was a very green handler. If he had had a different, more experienced handler with the goal of winning a championship title, I'm sure he could have taken them there. That just wasn't my goal. On the-other-hand, I think any well-bred working border collie should be able to be transplanted into dog sports without much trouble. The ingredients are all there; not mentioning the health benefits you get from using working lines. I didn't say anyting about a well bred working border collie's potential to do, or not do, sports. Also, the OP wasn't claiming that her dog was a "well-bred working border collie," and most people would agree that the breeder has not shown proof of having or breeding well-bred working border collies. The OP was just claiming that the breeder breeds healthy dogs with stable temperaments. There was nothing about working ability in her post. So, I'm not sure what point you are trying to counterpoint here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 I think the point being made is that although you can do all sorts of things with a dog with temperament problems and poor socialization or health issues, it's a lot more work. Doesn't mean it isn't worthwhile or rewarding work - whether you are into stock work, agility or obedience. But it will be more work. A breeder who has large numbers of bitches, and uses their own stud dogs over and over is a miller, plain and simple. And someone who not only has lots and lots of dogs, but also numbers of other species as well, is probably either a multi-species miller or just a hoarder. Or somebody who likes to play genetic roulette to see what sort of odd colors they can come up with. Having "more dogs than sheep" with the rainbow-of-coat-colors is usually the sign of someone who looks first at the dollar value of a dog - and how to get it - and is someone that no person who cares about dogs should patronize. If you like the look of this sort of breeder's dogs, go to a rescue nearby. They probably have several of them, and at a better price. As others have said, it just isn't possible to give that many animals the best care and treatment. You can sometimes make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, but when you could just get a silk purse to begin with, why not do it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 I think the point being made is that although you can do all sorts of things with a dog with temperament problems and poor socialization or health issues, it's a lot more work. Doesn't mean it isn't worthwhile or rewarding work . . . . But it will be more work. That is true. And it usually requires a re-adujustment in personal goals. There is a lot that can be accomplished with a dog with a challenging temperament (or physical issues, etc.), but often one is measuring one's accomplishments against the standard of the dog him or herself, not always an external standard. It's incredibly worthwhile and rewarding. But it's also incredibly difficult at times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 Dear Terry ~ I'm glad your experiences with Rising Sun Farm has been nothing but good, and that your dogs have been nothing but wonderful. Given the sheer volume of puppies that the breeder puts out there, I have to imagine that she IS creating dogs that people can enjoy. And it is clear that she is striving to import and incorporate some very good bloodlines. However, besides having witnessed first-hand the tragedy of poor Aussie breeding from this farm, I simply cannot condone either Rising Suns's emphasis on color, or the sheer quantity of dogs used in their breeding programs. Nor can I see how having 18 breeding bitches (just counting border collies) with no apparent credentials other than their pedigrees is in anyway forwarding the best of the working border collie. Whatever the bloodlines in these Rising Sun dogs, it's abundantly clear that their emphasis here is on color, not on whether the dogs can do a proper day's work or themselves exhibit the best working traits of the breed. I'm sure Rising Sun dogs, whether Aussie or BC, can make lovely pets and companions and agility dogs. Some of them probably are fine as arena trialing dogs. But beyond that limited sphere ... I, personally, am not impressed. Color is not what border collies are about. But color is clearly the center of Rising Sun's border collie breeding program. Respectfully submitted, Gloria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrecar Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 Nothing says "puppy mill" like multiple breeding females and a bunch of dogs warehoused in crates. Having said that, $1000 to $1500 'might' be on the high end, but it is hardly an astronomical price to pay for good bloodlines. I don't know, maybe Border Collie's are different, but that's about the going price for a selectively bred German Shepherd puppy around here, although you can find breeders who charge more like $800. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donald McCaig Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 Dear Doggers, I've bred 3 litters in 25 years.I hope to breed my two sound open trial winners again this fall. I'll probably ask $750-800 which farmer friends think high but is a little lower than I'd ask if one of the trials they won had been the National Finals. Donald McCaig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc/aussie lover Posted May 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 I appreciate everyone's input and understand your point of view. I guess what I look for in a dog and what others look for in a dog are different. I have a family, grandson and lots of people around, lots of activity. I own my own home with some land (but not acres and acres) I primarily do obedience and agility and will try my hand now in herding. When I want a dog, I am looking first and foremost for health, then outgoing, friendly and confident. Color does not even come into play for me. I found that at Rising Sun and have been successful with my dogs both in temperament and health - - at least so far. I have had dogs for many years (don't want to give away my age). Before I had aussies and bcs, I had German Shepherds. Despite being very careful in picking breeders and dogs that had all the clearances, every german shepherd I owned had something go wrong. Hip and elbow dysplasia (despite everyone being OFAd) spinal myopothy, pancreatic insufficiency--you name it, we had it. It is what sent me to a different breed even though I love german shepherds. I am sure there are many good breeders out there with wonderful dogs. Call it luck if you want, but my Rising Sun dogs are wonderful and having had prior bad luck with dogs, I will stay where I have been lucky. Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 Having said that, $1000 to $1500 'might' be on the high end, but it is hardly an astronomical price to pay for good bloodlines. I don't know, maybe Border Collie's are different, Historically working border collies have been different. If you consider the people who developed the breed (generally folks without much money) and the fact that you can't really look at an 8-12 week old pup and tell it's got a good chance of being a winner or contender (like conformation folks might be able to do) the reluctance to pay a great deal for a pup is understandable. If I lay out $1k for the puppy, raise it for a year, then start training it (time and $$) and then find out a year or so later that it's not going to cut it as a working dog, I've got a lot of time and money invested for essentially a pet. The dog show culture, and apparently the sport dog culture, accept that puppies will command higher prices. Traditionally, the working border collie culture has not accepted that. I would breed my own dog, or find a good working bred litter that's priced reasonably (IMO) before I'd pay upward of $1k for a pup, even if it is out of a finals winner. I mentioned this thread to a friend this morning and she made a good point. If you're going to spend $1-1.5k for a pup, why not add just a little more money and get yourself a started dog (if buying for stockwork)? At least then you'd know something of what you're going to get for your money. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 Good point, Julie. I'm astounded at what sport people will pay for puppies. (of course this is coming from someone whose sport dog cost $85 from Fulton County Animal Services . Best damn money I ever spent, too!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 I think it's a matter of supply and demand. If someone is buying a sport bred pup from winning sports dogs, they are willing to pay more for the idea that their pup might be as good as or better than the parents. This may even be a reasonable expectation for an activity that doesn't require a genetic ability to read and react to a third species. And in a good capitalist fashion, if a breeder knows people are willing to pay more, then why not ask more? Even Donald has said he'd charge more for his pups if one of his dogs had won the finals, but in the stockdog world, a parent (or two) having won prestigious trials does not guarantee that the offspring will be able to do the same. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrecar Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 Good point, Julie. I'm astounded at what sport people will pay for puppies. (of course this is coming from someone whose sport dog cost $85 from Fulton County Animal Services . Best damn money I ever spent, too!) I like that. So many good dogs are sitting in shelters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 I am sure there are many good breeders out there with wonderful dogs. Call it luck if you want, but my Rising Sun dogs are wonderful and having had prior bad luck with dogs, I will stay where I have been lucky. Terry Terry, Good luck has a lot to do with. I think you are the *only* poster to ever admit to positives with this kennel. Do a search on these boards, jennkshipley (sp?) can offer you not only a different pov but documentation to back it up. You're right there are many good breeders out there supporting this one isn't helping the breed though imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam Wolf Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 I think it's a matter of supply and demand. If someone is buying a sport bred pup from winning sports dogs, they are willing to pay more for the idea that their pup might be as good as or better than the parents. This may even be a reasonable expectation for an activity that doesn't require a genetic ability to read and react to a third species. And in a good capitalist fashion, if a breeder knows people are willing to pay more, then why not ask more? J. I'm glad you mentioned this. Why don't people recognize that the main reason certain lines' are winning in dog sports is because they are in the hands of GOOD trainers? These sports do not require 'innate' ability, yes, good structure is often improtant,but the main reason these dogs are winning is the handlers are just GOOD! And training does NOT breed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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