MaryP Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 I'm glad you mentioned this. Why don't people recognize that the main reason certain lines' are winning in dog sports is because they are in the hands of GOOD trainers? Exactly. And it just perpetuates and builds as more and more excellent handlers get their dogs from the same "top" breeders because they assume that that is the ticket (or, at least a big part of the ticket). And the myth continues. I don't doubt that some very nice dogs come from sport breeders. I've seen some very nice sport-bred dogs that I would love to run around an agility ring. Doesn't mean I think that I need a sport-bred, or even purpose-bred dog to excel at agility. I've also seen some sport-bred dogs that were so over-the-top that the handler spends the whole run just trying to manage the chaos. No thanks. I'll stick with my rescue border collie and mixed breed rescue border Ollie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 Well I don't think she's breeding from any top sport dogs, so not sure how she is justifying charging that much. I know of one person in the NW who has her dogs and has been known to place well at some big events, but that's about it. I just went and read her 'news' page to see if I was missing some big sport name who has her lines and still don't see anyone. Also, the few RS dogs I've met in person have not impressed me at all. If she's breeding for pretty looks, these dogs certainly were not. What stuck out to me the most was their wiry-like coats (and yes I know that doesn't matter, but it was weird enough to make me remember). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrRipley Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 Journey a few posts above is referring to my friend Jen, who has a rising sun dog with severe health issues -- IBD and epilepsy. Her experience with her dog and the breeder can be found in the post below: http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showtopic=22808&st=40 No question there is something wrong with the entire situation at RSF. I won't repeat points that others have said above -- I agree with most of them. It's too bad people support kennels like this. There are too many nice border collies in rescue that can't be much more of a risk than getting a dog from RSF. PSmitty I have you beat -- Ripley only cost me $40 from the county shelter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 No question there is something wrong with the entire situation at RSF. I won't repeat points that others have said above -- I agree with most of them. It's too bad people support kennels like this. There are too many nice border collies in rescue that can't be much more of a risk than getting a dog from RSF. Amen. PSmitty I have you beat -- Ripley only cost me $40 from the county shelter Gotta love a bargain! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waffles Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 I still don't get why someone would support a place like RS. Even if you say you don't care about the working ability and you say you don't care about color then why would you still choose to support a place that clearly pumps out way too many dogs? How do you think the parents of all those puppies live day to day? We have a mill near us and a lot of people are aware of it yet they still support them because "it's the only place to find such and such breed/mix of whatever, etc". How can you give all that money to someone who does not treat their breeding dogs well, even on a basic level? There are so many places and breeders to buy a well tempered healthy puppy from and you would be supporting a truly responsible/humane breeder or rescue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
puppytoes Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 I have had dogs for many years (don't want to give away my age). Before I had aussies and bcs, I had German Shepherds. Despite being very careful in picking breeders and dogs that had all the clearances, every german shepherd I owned had something go wrong. Hip and elbow dysplasia (despite everyone being OFAd) spinal myopothy, pancreatic insufficiency--you name it, we had it. It is what sent me to a different breed even though I love german shepherds. The very reason that border collies are generally free of health issues is because they have been bred for working ability up until quite recently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrecar Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 I still don't get why someone would support a place like RS. Even if you say you don't care about the working ability and you say you don't care about color then why would you still choose to support a place that clearly pumps out way too many dogs? How do you think the parents of all those puppies live day to day? We have a mill near us and a lot of people are aware of it yet they still support them because "it's the only place to find such and such breed/mix of whatever, etc". How can you give all that money to someone who does not treat their breeding dogs well, even on a basic level? There are so many places and breeders to buy a well tempered healthy puppy from and you would be supporting a truly responsible/humane breeder or rescue? I think this sums it up nicely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cumulus Cloud Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 When I finally see a breeder that "seems" worthy, turns out they aren't... Since bc folks on here have much experience and knowledge, would you mind posting all the breeders that you would recommend for get a bc from? It is SO VERY easy to find a bad breeder but it's always the prized ones that are "hidden" somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jexa Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 PSmitty I have you beat -- Ripley only cost me $40 from the county shelter I've got you both beat...Rudder was $25 from the county humane society (though that doesn't include the cost for the required spay/neuter). Of course, he's totally useless so I'm not sure it's really such a great deal And forget color, forget bloodlines, forget temperament, forget everything- a breeder that breeds that many animals most certainly doesn't have the dogs' best interest at heart and is a mill. I just don't get it, if what you're looking for is a nice family pet, a casual agility partner, etc, WHY would you not go rescue one of the millions of wonderful dogs in shelters? If you are dead set on a purebred, you could go to a breed rescue (Or do what I did and adopt what you think is a border/lab mix and then watch it grow up to be 100% border ). We dont need breeders to breed "nice pets". There are more than enough nice pets currently without homes. If you are not breeding to improve the breed, and ONLY to improve the breed, don't do it! You are taking a much smaller gamble on what the dog is going to be like by adopting a slightly older dog than buying a puppy from a breeder, even a respectable one. I think some people believe breeding and genetics are some voodoo black magic where you can create exactly what you want in a puppy, but the reality is even those very knowledgable about the subject can only make a best guess. You never know for sure what traits will pass on and which won't. Terry, I'm so glad you have wonderful dogs, but by further supporting this breeder you would be supporting a puppy (and apparently kitten) mill. Please, please consider what's best for the breed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carson Crazies Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 If you are not breeding to improve the breed, and ONLY to improve the breed, don't do it! *snip* Please, please consider what's best for the breed. Herein lies the crux of the issue. For many folks it is hard to understand the difference between good breeding vs. the individual dog. It's is often hard to figure out how to do what is good for the breed as a whole vs. doing what is good for me right now. The point that we are trying to make here is that when dogs are bred for proven working ability then the buyer should be getting a good border collie - one with a working package that includes the work and all it entails... including health, stamina, and a good temperament. That very thing - the working package so to speak - is what has made the border collie into the dog we all love, and if we take the welfare of the breed to heart then it is up to us as the puppy buyers to support breeders who are doing the same (and paying lip service to working without backing it up doesn't count). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted May 24, 2012 Report Share Posted May 24, 2012 Terry, I respect your opinion, and I also understand wanting to stay with what works for you. But I hope you're understanding the complaints that folks have with Rising Sun and kennels like them. She DOES breed for color, even if it's not a factor for you, and she is putting cosmetic considerations well before any proofing of work ability. Rising Sun Farm is not selectively matching her border collie sires and dams according to their working traits. She's not weighing factors such as whether Sire A is a very strong-eyed, pressure-reactive dog, so perhaps he should be put to a more loose-eyed, free-flanking bitch, or whether Bitch B is a better driving dog than outrunner, so maybe she should go to a stud who has a great natural outrun, and so on like that. In fact, the only working mentions I can find on her website seem geared towards arena trialing. One stud dog apparently has run in USBCHA cattle trials, but that's all. The point is, these forums emphasize the border collie's working heritage, and how best to preserve that, and well as protect it from the sort of dilution that inevitably occurs when breeding for color, show or sport. And I personally have a BIG problem with someone who keeps 18 - eighteen! - breeding bitches in her kennel. How on earth can she ever spend quality time with that many dogs - let alone the other dozen or so dogs around the place? Does she even know who they are? This is not a person I'd go to for a quality working border collie, because that is not what she breeds. If I just wanted a pet with a family-friendly personality, I'd get a golden retriever. Wishing you well, Gloria I appreciate everyone's input and understand your point of view. I guess what I look for in a dog and what others look for in a dog are different. I have a family, grandson and lots of people around, lots of activity. I own my own home with some land (but not acres and acres) I primarily do obedience and agility and will try my hand now in herding. When I want a dog, I am looking first and foremost for health, then outgoing, friendly and confident. Color does not even come into play for me. I found that at Rising Sun and have been successful with my dogs both in temperament and health - - at least so far. I have had dogs for many years (don't want to give away my age). Before I had aussies and bcs, I had German Shepherds. Despite being very careful in picking breeders and dogs that had all the clearances, every german shepherd I owned had something go wrong. Hip and elbow dysplasia (despite everyone being OFAd) spinal myopothy, pancreatic insufficiency--you name it, we had it. It is what sent me to a different breed even though I love german shepherds. I am sure there are many good breeders out there with wonderful dogs. Call it luck if you want, but my Rising Sun dogs are wonderful and having had prior bad luck with dogs, I will stay where I have been lucky. Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Billadeau Posted May 24, 2012 Report Share Posted May 24, 2012 A question for all to ponder (I don't expect an answer) If the breeder is really trying to improve the breed (improve their lines) why would they not keep a pup from the litter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Boots Posted May 24, 2012 Report Share Posted May 24, 2012 A question for all to ponder (I don't expect an answer) If the breeder is really trying to improve the breed (improve their lines) why would they not keep a pup from the litter? I was thinking the same thing. It seems to me that most handlers of working border collies who decide to breed their dog, does so often at least in part, because they want/need an upcoming pup from that breeding. In my recent searching for my first planned litter working bred pup, I have spoken to quite a few people who have plans to breed a specific bitch or dog, but they are either waiting till that dog is tested on stock at a higher level (whether this is trial or ranch work) and handlers who have a breeding planned but they are waiting for the right time, when the pups will be born and can have a 'training' spot with them as a handler. I think a big part of what continues to support mills and byb that pump out too many puppies is that people are impatient and lazy (not directed as a specific 'people' but the general 'people'). We have SO MANY new puppy owners that come into our clinic that purchased their puppy as a spur of the moment decision. I can't tell you how many times I have heard 'He is so cute; I had to have him!' As our exams begin w/ new pups we ask questions about what testing had been done on the parents, did the puppy owners meet both parents, what was the puppies up bringing like, had the owner researched the breed, etc. You can see this sort of paniced look on the owners face as they realize they should have asked these questions, etc. Not that we are trying to scare clients, not at all, but we do try to educate them on things they should have thought about and things they may want to contact the breeder back about and inquire about. Well, I guess we got ripped off when we adopted Renoir, we paid $125 Although would have happily paid more, he is priceless! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc/aussie lover Posted May 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 24, 2012 Although you did not expect an answer to your question, Becky did keep a puppy from the breeding that my pup came from. While I am new to border collies and this board, I am not new to dogs or aussies and have owned two Rising Sun aussies. As I have explained, they are wonderful family pets and obedience and agility competitors. As a matter of fact, one even saved my life ! ! ! ! Since I have been in aussies for many years, I know many people in obedience, agility and herding who own Rising Sun aussies, some coming back 3 and 4 times and are very happy with their dogs! ! ! As a matter of fact, at this year's aussie nationals, the Most Versatile Aussie was a Rising Sun dog. But, the way you get attacked for having an opinion that differs from yours, makes me understand why people would not bother to post anything positive or for that matter anything at all. Terry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynthia P Posted May 24, 2012 Report Share Posted May 24, 2012 But, the way you get attacked for having an opinion that differs from yours, makes me understand why people would not bother to post anything positive or for that matter anything at all. Terry The philosophy of the boards is to breed for working ability. She clearly does not breed for working ability. She has a lot of working genetics and perhaps she is attempting to still breed with working in mind however to many it seems that she is missing the mark. I'm glad she has made a tremendous pet for you Cynthia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildFlower Posted May 24, 2012 Report Share Posted May 24, 2012 But, the way you get attacked for having an opinion that differs from yours, makes me understand why people would not bother to post anything positive or for that matter anything at all. Hi Terry, I believe someone else in thread mentioned this, but have you read the "Read this First" sticky at the top of the forum? Here's a link: http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.php?showannouncement=1&f=6 This board states its opinion on what it sees as appropriate breeding practices for border collies quite openly. I have read this thread from the beginning and do not feel that you have been "attacked" in any way. You posted on a board with a clearly stated breeding philosophy tooting the horn of what can, IMO, only be defined as a puppy mill or backyard breeder and then wonder why people here don't agree with you? We all love our dogs here. Regardless of whether we work stock, do agility, flyball, or obedience, or if they are nothing more that a wonderfully devoted pet. The issue is that the breeder that you purchased your BC from does not breed her dogs based on their ability to work livestock at a high level, which is the measuring stick that should be used to make a breeding decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted May 24, 2012 Report Share Posted May 24, 2012 You weren't attacked, we just don't agree with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted May 24, 2012 Report Share Posted May 24, 2012 As a matter of fact, at this year's aussie nationals, the Most Versatile Aussie was a Rising Sun dog. Terry Uh-oh. She said the V word. Sticky. Read the sticky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cynthia P Posted May 24, 2012 Report Share Posted May 24, 2012 Uh-oh. She said the V word. Sticky. Read the sticky. Its ok, it was an Aussie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted May 24, 2012 Report Share Posted May 24, 2012 Its ok, it was an Aussie Yes, and they once were bred for work - now they are bred for all manners of reasons and it is much harder to find true, working-bred, capable Aussies for farm/ranch work and other livestock jobs. That's not the path we want to see the Border Collie take, although there are many who are already steering the breed in that direction - a jack-of-all-trades and master of none. That would be a sad end for one of the world's great purpose-bred dogs. As has been said, to the OP, to see where we are coming from - "Read the sticky!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted May 24, 2012 Report Share Posted May 24, 2012 This reminds me of a recent facebook posting from a flyballer who was excited that ACK is now going to recognize flyball titles (purely as a money-making venture). She was hoping those flyball titles would now count to her Vizsla's ROM status. I asked what flyball (or agility, rally, etc..) had to do with the working ability of a Vizsla and she didn't like that. oops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted May 24, 2012 Report Share Posted May 24, 2012 This reminds me of a recent facebook posting from a flyballer who was excited that ACK is now going to recognize flyball titles (purely as a money-making venture). She was hoping those flyball titles would now count to her Vizsla's ROM status. I asked what flyball (or agility, rally, etc..) had to do with the working ability of a Vizsla and she didn't like that. oops. You're so silly! What kind of question was that? (Totally agree about the AKC/flyball thing. What a crock. I don't understand at all why flyballers are happy about it, or even care.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted May 24, 2012 Report Share Posted May 24, 2012 I don't understand at all why flyballers are happy about it, or even care.) Yeah me neither, and I play flyball. Let's just say I was in a mood that day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted May 24, 2012 Report Share Posted May 24, 2012 I play, too. In a FB discussion after it was announced, and everyone was so excited about their sport getting "legitimized", I flat out said "of course it must not have anything to do with the AKC making money" and I got nothing but crickets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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