Tommy Coyote Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 In the working dogs I think there is still a preference for classic black and white. Do you think it is wrong to breed for the flashier colors - blue merle, red merle, mostly white - whatever - if those dogs can work to the same standard as the black and white dogs? I know the classic black and and white markings are always my favorites. But I just got to thinking about why I felt that way. There seem to be lots of white dogs and merles on this site that are really good working dogs. So if their working ability is good - why not have a flashy dog? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcnewe2 Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 I don't think there's anything wrong with owning a flashy color border collie that has come out of a working bred line, bred for the work and the color was incidental. But that's not usually the case for merles and the more flashy colors. Guess it does happen but it seems pretty rare to me. If you like color and try to breed for color then you have strayed from breeding for work. When I first started working dogs, I wanted a "different" looking dog. I like different. But in the end I found I didn't want that more than I wanted a good working dog so it's become a moot point. But before that, not really knowing the full story of a truly working bred dog, I had a red dog given to me, out of a kennel that was considered a working dog kennel. But I quickly learned (of course, for me, after the fact) that the people were breeding for red, under the guise of a working kennel. Can't have it both ways. This dog had moments of greatness but also had some things that you could tell were off shoots of breeding for the wrong thing. I was lucky that the dog was loaned to me so he eventually went back to his true owners. And I learned a valuable lesson...beauty is in the work not the color! Just my story and my opinion, others may vary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 First I think you have a misperception about the numbers of good working candy colored dogs. I know a lot of working dogs from across the country, and I'd venture to say that a vast majority of them are black and white or black tris. If you include white factored dogs with a lot of white (piebald), then the number goes up, but those dogs aren't the really flashy types I think you're referring to. For example, I can count on one hand the number of white or mostly white trial dogs I've known. I don't know them all obviously, but I'd still say that the number of mostly white dogs (like my Pip) is essentially vanishingly small. Add to that the perception among working dog folks that white dogs will not be respected by livestock, and then no matter how good the dog in question is, there isn't a ready market for pups that are also mostly white (if someone were actually choosing to breed for white). In fact, you'd probably be hard pressed to find a good working breeder who would breed *to* a white dog. I think merle would work the same way. There are a few merle dogs running in USBCHA open. Of the ones I know well, I don't think any have reproduced themselves (that is, produced merle offspring who are also capable of doing well in open). There's a prejudice against merles on top of that, so again, the people who are serious trialing and working folks won't actively seek merles, and in fact are more likely to actively avoid merles, so again, the market for such dogs from a breeding standpoint would be minimal. (And of course merle, unlike some of the others, has to be bred for--it doesn't just pop up and surprise you.) Red is recessive and can disappear for generations and then reappear. I wouldn't object to a red dog out of good working dogs who have been known to produce red in the past, but I wouldn't be likely to look closely at a litter that was deliberately bred to produce red unless I felt that the two dogs in question truly complemented one another in working ability (that is, that red wasn't the main consideration of the breeding, but working ability was). Again, at least one very Big Hat believes and says that red dogs don't hold up over time. I'm not trying to start an argument with that--I happen to have two red working dogs--but it points out again that prejudice will lead to *buying* choices and so a market for deliberately bred red working dogs is probably smaller than one for dogs who normally produce black and white but in which the occasional red dog pops up. So my main point is that as long as prejudice exists (right or wrong that prejudice/perception might be), there isn't going to be a great push to create candy colored working dogs because among the top working and trialing folks, there is little or no market for such dogs. (This does not apply to people who are dabbling in herding or trialing only at the lowest levels, which is where you see greater numbers of "flashy" dogs, but many of these folks are also crossing over from other venues where candy colors are more the norm.) When I had Twist's litter, more than half the people on the puppy list said that they would be happy with any pup BUT the white one. I've seen that same scenario play out in litters with red pups too, though to a bit lesser extent. In answer to your final question, I see nothing wrong with having a flashy dog, but it's what's behind that dog and the thought that went into the breeding (which shouldn't be color) that are the important things. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Coyote Posted January 30, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 I was thinking about my Tommy. She is mostly white. Her litter had two black and white dogs and 3 almost all white dogs. Jack Knox sold the white dogs (probably all to people like me although I sure don't know that for sure) and kept the black and white for himself. (I have no idea what finally happened to the black and whites.) I haven't ever tried to work Tommy but her breeding is exactly the same as the black and whites. She is very soft but that doesn't mean she is soft on stock. It's just the perception that white dogs can't move sheep as well as the darker dogs? What about white dogs on cattle? The color shouldn't matter. Are the traditional dogs still the one's to have if you are a serious cattle dogger? So it's still the same out there? Serious working dog people have black and white dogs. Or some acceptable version thereof - Like tris or split face or ticked. It does seem like the smooth coats have gotten a lot more popular - that slick coat is just so much easier to deal within a lot of areas where a thick coat is a real nuisance. Does the AKC even know there is a smooth coat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 Some people think white dogs are perceived by some sheep as less threatening and so they may have trouble moving them unless they have a ton of power. I don't know--the white dogs I know all seem to fall into the "ton of power" category. I do know that a friend of mine who has a white dog has reported that when she is spotting, other dogs will sometimes key in on her dog (rather than the sheep) during an outrun until they get close enough to see that he is a dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrecar Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 I don't mean to hijack the thread, but what does the term "spotting" mean in trial-speak?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 I don't mean to hijack the threat, but what does the term "spotting" mean in trial-speak?? Sorry; I mean setting sheep up at the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrecar Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 Thank you. Again, sorry to hijack the thread. I'm trying to learn these terms and google wasn't helping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toney Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 In cattle dogs, there are probably a few more white factored dogs than in sheep, at least it seems like that to me, but I know of no candy colors that were trialed in the Finals, but I could be wrong. Cattle people tend to like smooth coats just for the ease of clean up, but there were smooth and long coated ones on the RFD-TV broadcast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 Some people think white dogs are perceived by some sheep as less threatening and so they may have trouble moving them unless they have a ton of power. I don't know--the white dogs I know all seem to fall into the "ton of power" category. I do know that a friend of mine who has a white dog has reported that when she is spotting, other dogs will sometimes key in on her dog (rather than the sheep) during an outrun until they get close enough to see that he is a dog. I've watched dogs lifting sheep look at Pip as if they were thinking "Why isn't he moving with the others?" Almost all the time they quickly figure out he's a dog and not another sheep. I'll add that a lot of handlers like when I set sheep with my white dog (which is most of the time) because he's easily seen at a distance (good marker for where the sheep are) and not easily confused with their own dog when it gets to the top. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 just the perception that white dogs can't move sheep as well as the darker dogs? Personally I think it's a self-perpetuating perception. If the sheep behave a particular way toward a white dog, people will tend to associate the behavior with the color of the dog. If the sheep behave the exact same way toward a classically marked dog, people will come up with a different reason for that behavior. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 Yes, for working cattle, there is not so much of a preference for black/white or tri, and a mostly white dog seems fairly widely accepted (but I can't recall any "candy-colored" dogs at the moment). At the Red Bluff sale, there is pretty much always at least one mostly white dog each year. This year, I think there were two (don't know how they worked, or how well they sold). In the litter Tikkle just had in November, there is a mostly white pup (with one blue eye, too), and I was pretty sure that he wouldn't be at the top of anyone's list, so he will go to Red Bluff next year. As long as he has a lot of bite on both ends, they'll be glad to see him there, A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 Personally I think it's a self-perpetuating perception. If the sheep behave a particular way toward a white dog, people will tend to associate the behavior with the color of the dog. If the sheep behave the exact same way toward a classically marked dog, people will come up with a different reason for that behavior. J. Right: a black and white or black tri who can't move the sheep is a weak dog. A white dog who can't move the sheep is a white dog. Of course, I don't have the experience to have seen a true representative sample of white dogs working, but the ones I have seen have impressed me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 No, but if the sheep turn and look at the white dog, it's because the dog is white (I've been told this countless times). If they turn and look at a black dog it's because they're just looking (in other words, no one would say the sheep are looking at the dark dog because of its color). That's why I purposely didn't use the sheep don't move example, because a weak dog is a weak dog no matter the color. I have been told that sheep will challenge a white dog more than they will a dark dog. I haven't experienced that with my own white dog, but the people who have told me these things are well-respected in working dog circles and they don't hesitate to share their beliefs. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 Julie, I didn't mean I couldn't understand your comment about color discrimination being self-perpetuating; I was offering an example of the line of thinking I've personally come across to support your observations. My was about how ridiculous that particular argument is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 I did misunderstand you Laura. Thanks for clarifying! J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. Festerling Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 Breeding for color in my simple world view falls under conformation. I will leave it at that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 ..... Do you think it is wrong to breed for the flashier colors - blue merle, red merle, mostly white - whatever - if those dogs can work to the same standard as the black and white dogs? I don't think it's wrong, necessarily, I just think it's problematical. The gene pool for truly talented (open quality) 'candy colored' dogs is fairly small, especially since a merle stud or bitch isn't necessarily going to produce merle pups. So, rather than breeding for the very best working qualities, a breeder of color may have to overlook quality non-colored dogs to keep producing generations of color. If the border collie were a breed that readily produced merles, it probably wouldn't even be a question. But since it's not, breeding for color ends up being a lot like breeding for conformation. Selecting for a cosmetic ideal means bypassing top quality working dogs who don't meet that physical ideal. Just my tuppence, your mileage may vary. ~ Gloria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz P Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 In my 17 years with the breed, I have only met 2 merles I would want to own (skilled sheepdogs). I've met a fair number of reds I would be happy to own, and in fact I have owned 2 of them. Their parents were black and white. They were both good working dogs, but neither one would have crossed well with the other red dogs I knew. I've not met a blue dog I liked, but I've met less than a dozen. I nearly bought a lilac pup, but not for her color. I was on the wait list to get a pup out of my dog's littermate sister. I wanted a female and the only female in the litter happened to be a lilac. It was a total shock when a tri color bitch bred to a black and white dog produced blue and lilac pups. In the end, the timing didn't work out and she went to someone else. Other than that pup, I've only known 2 others and I didn't like either of them. It is not wrong to breed a pretty colored BC that also happens to be a good sheepdog, but it is wrong to breed FOR that color. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Coyote Posted January 31, 2012 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Are there any health issues associated with different colors? Are mostly white border collies subject to health problems like white dogs in some other breeds are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Dilute colors (blue, lilac) can be affected by color dilution alopecia (hair loss). Her's an abstract that gives some information. I've not heard of any diseases associated with mostly white border collies, but then they aren't being selectively bred for mostly white, like some other breeds, so it stands to reason that those types of hereditary issues aren't likely to be a problem in white border collies. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Billadeau Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 I've not heard of any diseases associated with mostly white border collies, J. Unless your definition of mostly white includes excessive white on the head then epidemiologically studies indicate there is an increased risk of congenital deafness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Mark, I assumed that we were talking about white-bodied dogs, but good of you to point out the white-head/deafness link. J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthfieldNick Posted February 1, 2012 Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 I wish my blue dog had alopecia... He's a freakin' fuzzball! Massive undercoat. Arg I have a very nice blue dog. Sire is a tri, dam was nearly all black. Nick's grandfather produced one blue pup. I've had people ask about breeding to him because of the color. I wouldn't breed on that basis, but it's a moot point as Nick is castrated. In any case, Nick's sire has a lot of pups on the ground, and not another dilute in the bunch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Coyote Posted February 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2012 So - would you say there really may be a genetic connection between really good working ability and the classic black and white coat color? I have almost never seen solid black dogs working. Is that just because I haven't been out enough or are they kind of rare, too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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