Breeding for color question

[Mark Billadeau]

So - would you say there really may be a genetic connection between really good working ability and the classic black and white coat color?

There is no well to tell because of the disparity of population sizes between working traditionally marked and working non-traditionally marked dogs.

 

 

[juliepoudrier]

TC,

I think your question is something of a chicken or egg question: which came first, working ability or color? I think the only real conclusion you can draw is that the folks who developed the breed had their preferences about color, so they chose pups out of a litter based on their preferences, trained those dogs up, and bred them if they suited. The end result was mainly dogs that are black and white or tri (including sable and saddleback). Other colors, like red, remained in the lines because it was recessive and could skip generations. Colors like merle or excessive white weren't likely chosen from litters, which means dogs colored that way weren't chosen or trained and so their usefulness of lack thereof was never assessed, and as a result they weren't bred from. (I doubt the choices were that deliberate; that is, I doubt a farmer said to himself, "I won't choose a red dog," but the subconscious choices had the same end result.) <--This is all speculation on my part, but it makes the most sense to me as an explanation for why some colors are much more prevalent than others. There's also a reason that certain prejudices have persisted through time, and I'd guess it's because those prejudices existed at the start.

 

As for all black dogs, there are probably some out there. Most of the black dogs I know have a little bit of white somewhere.

 

J.

[DeltaBluez Tess]

When Nan had her pups, six of the seven were red. I had two buyers back out of the color. Now the pups are maturing, one of them (a couple) is kicking themselves in the butt now. They saw the pups as they matured and then realized they made an error. They offered big money to buy my red female or any one of the other pups that belong to other owners. They even asked me to write them to see if they would sell them. No such luck. I am not repeating the breeding but they admit they had made a mistake due to the color. One of the red pup owners loves her pup so much she also wanted to buy any littermate. Not going to repeat the breeding.

 

When I bred Nan to Roo, Nan is tri, Roo is red, I didn't know that Nan carried the red gene. Much to my surprise she had 6 red pup and one tri. I kept a red and the tri. Her other litters were b/w or tri and a lilac? ( I didn't own her when she had the other litters)

 

I was amazed at the color preference but it is to be expected. As for me, I don't care if the dog is purple, what is inside is what makes the dog.

 

However the cowdog people like the red and it doesn't bother them at all.

 

I do know when I was running Roo and Lucy (red) that people first were so-so about the red but after a while, they had a fan club and the local people looked past the color; however Roo and Lucy made their mark on wins to prove it.

 

Long age we had a merle run in PN. People really kept a tight eye on that dog for the color. She ran quite well and to this day, she is "that merle who is good"...of course, she was the only merle but she ran quite well.

[Gloria Atwater]

So - would you say there really may be a genetic connection between really good working ability and the classic black and white coat color?

 

I have almost never seen solid black dogs working. Is that just because I haven't been out enough or are they kind of rare, too?

 

 

I think it's just that the black-and-white color most readily replicates/repeats/perpetuates itself, in the border collie. So when one is breeding for the best working qualities, it just happens that with it (usually) comes the traditional black-and-white coloring.

 

It may also be that, in times gone by, there was prejudice by farmers against the candy colors. If pups of color showed up, they weren't bred, so the color genes were not perpetuated and the black-and-white became dominant. Someone who knows genetics could probably explain that, but I suspect it's mainly the traditional border collie coloring IS a dominant color factor in the breed.

 

There are a good number of mostly-black border collies out there. But again, I think the genetics of the breed tend towards the black-and-white coloring. It's pretty rare to find a solid black border collie. Even the darkest one is apt to have a splash of white somewhere, on his nose, his chest or the tip of his tail, and he may not ever throw a pup as dark as him.

 

My thoughts, anyhow, as a non-geneticist!

 

~ Gloria

[geonni banner]

I think it's just that the black-and-white color most readily replicates/repeats/perpetuates itself, in the border collie. So when one is breeding for the best working qualities, it just happens that with it (usually) comes the traditional black-and-white coloring.

 

It may also be that, in times gone by, there was prejudice by farmers against the candy colors. If pups of color showed up, they weren't bred, so the color genes were not perpetuated and the black-and-white became dominant. Someone who knows genetics could probably explain that, but I suspect it's mainly the traditional border collie coloring IS a dominant color factor in the breed.

 

There are a good number of mostly-black border collies out there. But again, I think the genetics of the breed tend towards the black-and-white coloring. It's pretty rare to find a solid black border collie. Even the darkest one is apt to have a splash of white somewhere, on his nose, his chest or the tip of his tail, and he may not ever throw a pup as dark as him.

 

My thoughts, anyhow, as a non-geneticist!

 

~ Gloria

 

I wonder... Given the common experience that many with non-tuxedo Border Collies have had, i.e. "that isn't a Border-Collie because it's red, (white, merle, freckled) maybe the old-timers thought another dog got to their bitch while she was in season and thought the odd-colored pup was not worth keeping as a worker for that reason.

 

Since some colors are recessive they might not see them for several generations. And since the understanding of genetics was not what it is now, they may have assumed odd colors meant "impure blood."

[Sue R]

I wonder... Given the common experience that many with non-tuxedo Border Collies have had, i.e. "that isn't a Border-Collie because it's red, (white, merle, freckled) maybe the old-timers thought another dog got to their bitch while she was in season and thought the odd-colored pup was not worth keeping as a worker for that reason.

 

Since some colors are recessive they might not see them for several generations. And since the understanding of genetics was not what it is now, they may have assumed odd colors meant "impure blood."

This was, I understand, the case with Maremmas. Those dogs, that often came into heat during transhumance and other situations where accidental breedings *could* happen, were only deemed to be pure if white, so any pups born with spots or colors would be destroyed as "impure".

 

There are lots of registries where "pure color" or "pure color patterns" are considered essential for registry because anything else could be indicative of mixed-breeding. With modern science, that sort of attitude can be supplanted by science that proves parentage, and not just guessing by color or pattern.

 

I wonder how much culling was done in the early years of the Border Collie (and any other breed) due to color/pattern leading people to think that certain pups were "accidental breedings"?