sudden fear aggression.

[brady's mom]

Visiting my dad with Brady has become super difficult.

 

He knows these people and has spent time with them since he was 5 months old. Granted it's never for long periods of time, but when he was about 7 months old I left him with them for 10 days while I went on a vacation with my mom and step-dad.

 

After this, he started becoming reactive to them.

 

With my dad, after about an twenty minutes he warms up. But my dad is a dog person and knows to sit down, not look at him, and just wait for him to come to him. He still gets skitterish when my dad is walking around at his full height, but he's friendly after a couple of hours and will come to him for reassurance, attention, or play.

 

With my dad's girlfriend, it's the same thing. He warms up super quickly and just becomes best friends with her.

 

It's with her son, whom I call my brother, that he becomes incredibly, incredibly reactive. If Ricky comes into the room, Brady becomes hyper-vigilant and will sometimes even bark defensively. He tenses up and is clearly very afraid. He won't even go /near/ him, even when he's sitting on the ground and is trying to be calm.

 

Now, I know this might raise questions of abuse, but I know these people very well and know that none of that happened. They are always respectful of him and Brady and Ricky were even best buds while he was there for ten days. Brady has never been beaten, yelled at, /anything/ and this sudden reaction to them is completely sudden.

 

I don't even know to deal with it because he just completely shuts me out and is almost impossible to calm down without removing him from the situation as a whole. I don't want him to be afraid, I want him to be confident and happy with them. I've worked on some CU with him, but he's just so freaked out that everything goes out the window.

[Gloria Atwater]

I don't have any solutions, but I'd say that something happened with Ricky that frightened and upset Brady. Maybe the humans didn't even realize the dog was involved ... but something occurred. Something scared and/or upset him. Dogs don't develop phobias for no reason - it just may not be a reason the humans are aware of. Heck, he might have merely witnessed a harmless family quarrel or upset, but it was enough to shatter his confidence in them.

 

I wish you luck, but it may well be that Brady can't overcome this, or that it may simply take months or even years. What you hope for and what he's capable of doing may not be the same.

 

I'm very sorry for you, because I ran into something similar with my Nick. I took him to visit my elderly parents in their assisted living last year, and all my mom did was lean over and stare into Nick's face. Maybe it was her thick glasses, I don't know, but was enough of a "space invasion" that he freaked out and thereafter, would not let Mom anywhere near him. He even growled and crawled behind my knees, if she spoke to him. To add insult to injury, one of the staff was able to simply walk over, say hello and become his new best friend. But Mom had frightened him and I had to live with the fact that her "grandpuppy" did not like her.

 

I hope people here can help you, but I just wanted to plant the seed that maybe this isn't something easily repaired, and you don't want to ask more than Brady is willing to give.

 

~ Gloria

[brady's mom]

I'm so afraid of that. Of it being something I can't fix.

 

Thank you so much for being able to say what I'm avoiding, it's something I'll definitely have to keep at the forefront of my mind. :/

 

I just don't like thinking there's things out there in the world I can't...fix for him.

[rushdoggie]

After this, he started becoming reactive to them.

 

With my dad, after about an twenty minutes he warms up. But my dad is a dog person and knows to sit down, not look at him, and just wait for him to come to him. He still gets skitterish when my dad is walking around at his full height, but he's friendly after a couple of hours and will come to him for reassurance, attention, or play.

 

Does he act this way with anyone else? or just your Dad's family? Is he slow to warm up to everyone?

 

...he just completely shuts me out and is almost impossible to calm down without removing him from the situation as a whole. I don't want him to be afraid, I want him to be confident and happy with them. I've worked on some CU with him, but he's just so freaked out that everything goes out the window.

 

Its because its too overwhelming at that point.

 

Does he behave this way only at their house, or your house or wherever he sees them?

 

The way to start CU type exercises is to be in a position where hey are close but not too close so hes on edge but not overwhelmed. It also helps if he is very good at the CU games away from the Thing That Upsets before having to try doing them with the Thing nearby.

 

Can you go to the park with Ricky and play the CU games with him 50 yards away? Or will he come unglued if he knows he is around?

[brady's mom]

It's only with my dad's family, in or out of their home. They've come by our house up in Vancouver (they live in Salem) a few times recently and it's the same reaction. He's not like this with anyone else--he's usually very confident in himself and quick to reach out and make friends. He's always been a very, very social dog.

 

It also helps if he is very good at the CU games away from the Thing That Upsets before having to try doing them with the Thing nearby.

 

I should probably take a step back and really, really work on the games with him to the point where I could say he's very good at them. Right now he's decent, but we could probably use more ground work. I'll definitely use that as a starting point and then see if I can borrow Ricky for a day or two.

[waffles]

I would take him out to a field with your Dad and have them walk parallel at whatever distance keeps Brady calm but still aware of your Dad. This may be 50 yards or more or even less. Just walk and reward, using CU techniques. Take things slowly and get them closer only when you can keep Brady under his "freak out" threshold. It will take time but doing things slowly and keeping his confidence up will get him there faster than just throwing them close together in a room and trying to get him over it that way.

 

I would definitely not say it is impossible. My dog was petrified (ran behind the couch, snarling, etc) of our cats and now he sleeps with them on the bed. Same thing with other dogs. If you try different methods and do things slowly I believe he can come around since you say he is normally friendly with men, strangers, etc. Dogs have an ability to change in ways humans can't.

[ejano]

 

 

It's with her son, whom I call my brother, that he becomes incredibly, incredibly reactive. If Ricky comes into the room, Brady becomes hyper-vigilant and will sometimes even bark defensively. He tenses up and is clearly very afraid. He won't even go /near/ him, even when he's sitting on the ground and is trying to be calm.

 

.....Brady and Ricky were even best buds while he was there for ten days. Brady has never been beaten, yelled at, /anything/ and this sudden reaction to them is completely sudden.

 

I don't even know to deal with it because he just completely shuts me out and is almost impossible to calm down without removing him from the situation as a whole. I don't want him to be afraid, I want him to be confident and happy with them. I've worked on some CU with him, but he's just so freaked out that everything goes out the window.

 

...I'll definitely use that as a starting point and then see if I can borrow Ricky for a day or two.

 

I agree with Gloria...some things are very hard to fix. For a dog to have a sudden, violent reaction to a person, something happened. Border Collies can be odd little creatures so it could be something very simple...Perhaps a truck on the street backfired once when Ricky walked into the room....Ricky makes loud noises ergo he scares me and I don't like him. How old is Ricky?

 

Several things come to mind. First, your Dad and his girlfriend may carry Ricky's smell, so Brady may be reacting to that smell, not necessarily "them."

 

Second, it's okay if your dog doesn't like someone as long as you can prevent any aggression between the two. Keep in mind that if your dog bites, you are liable and the dog will suffer the consequences even if the incident is with a family member. Keep him and Ricky separated by a good distance - that is one that the dog feels comfortable with. Don't push it. Don't "borrow" Ricky.

 

This is not a good time to experiment with CU (Sorry, Waffles, but a cat can't sue you or demand your dog be put down if something goes horribly wrong.). If the distance that makes Brady most comfortable is the next county, then it's the next county. Wait for the dog to forgive him. That may be when hell freezes over.

[waffles]

I agree with Gloria...some things are very hard to fix. For a dog to have a sudden, violent reaction to a person, something happened. Border Collies can be odd little creatures so it could be something very simple...Perhaps a truck on the street backfired once when Ricky walked into the room....Ricky makes loud noises ergo he scares me and I don't like him. How old is Ricky?

 

Several things come to mind. First, your Dad and his girlfriend may carry Ricky's smell, so Brady may be reacting to that smell, not necessarily "them."

 

Second, it's okay if your dog doesn't like someone as long as you can prevent any aggression between the two. Keep in mind that if your dog bites, you are liable and the dog will suffer the consequences even if the incident is with a family member. Keep him and Ricky separated by a good distance - that is one that the dog feels comfortable with. Don't push it. Don't "borrow" Ricky.

 

This is not a good time to experiment with CU (Sorry, Waffles, but a cat can't sue you or demand your dog be put down if something goes horribly wrong.). If the distance that makes Brady most comfortable is the next county, then it's the next county. Wait for the dog to forgive him. That may be when hell freezes over.

 

I highly doubt her own dad and brother are going to sue her!! She never said the dog was snapping, growling, lunging, and actively trying to bite at this point. Dogs can and do change, a lot more than humans can. For people to instantly say that this dog is a huge liability now because he is fearful of her dad and barking is insane. It could get to that point if left unchecked but clearly this owner is aware and trying to fix the problem. Neither of us have seen this dogs reaction but from the sounds of the post it does not sound like this dog is about to cause any serious damage and get the owner sued by her own family or about to bite a non family member. If it were that bad then I would suggest an actual behaviorist to step in and help.

 

My dog would have been labeled dog aggressive by a lot of people but I worked with him a ton in the last year and he is able to socialize with 10+ dogs at one time and has formed good relationships with many. This would have been seen as impossible by many when I got him and most people would have told me to muzzle him, keep him away from dogs, he is a liability, etc. People have a hard time believing how much a dog can transform and change if given the chance in appropriate ways. I knew a Great Pyr who was worse than my dog, she snapped and lunged and did not allow most dogs to approach her. Now she romps and plays rough with all kinds of dogs. Please, OP, do not give up on your dog at this point. Only you know exactly how your dog is reacting and if you need to, enlist a knowledgeable trainer to help you or continue to help Brady feel comfortable at appropriate distances on your own.

[Root Beer]

This is not a good time to experiment with CU (Sorry, Waffles, but a cat can't sue you or demand your dog be put down if something goes horribly wrong.). If the distance that makes Brady most comfortable is the next county, then it's the next county. Wait for the dog to forgive him. That may be when hell freezes over.

 

Actually, if one is using CU as it is intended, that is exactly the distance at which one needs to start to use the games.

 

Leashes, barriers, and distance can all be used to keep dog and human safe while the exercises are being started and until the dog's response to the triggers actually starts to change.

 

Could Ricky be outside while you play LAT with Brady viewing Ricky (still and "boring") through a window. After that, Ricky could move around at a distance. You could even do parallel walking, either at a distance, along a fence line, or by a window. Such barriers could be used until Brady is eagerly looking for Ricky through the window.

 

If Brady reacts, you've moved too fast. Increase distance.

 

I realize this can be difficult when you are living everyday normal life with a person coming and going. In those instances, could Brady be shut in a room while Ricky is visiting? Or could he stay home while you visit them for the time being?

 

Personally, I would choose to limit exposure as much as possible until I started to see some changes as a result of the exercises.

 

I wish you the best. I know these kinds of things are so challenging to deal with. If you have read the CU book, you might want to consider joining the yahoo group. You would probably get some excellent suggestions there.

[waffles]

Actually, if one is using CU as it is intended, that is exactly the distance at which one needs to start to use the games.

 

Leashes, barriers, and distance can all be used to keep dog and human safe while the exercises are being started and until the dog's response to the triggers actually starts to change.

 

Could Ricky be outside while you play LAT with Brady viewing Ricky (still and "boring") through a window. After that, Ricky could move around at a distance. You could even do parallel walking, either at a distance, along a fence line, or by a window. Such barriers could be used until Brady is eagerly looking for Ricky through the window.

 

If Brady reacts, you've moved too fast. Increase distance.

 

I realize this can be difficult when you are living everyday normal life with a person coming and going. In those instances, could Brady be shut in a room while Ricky is visiting? Or could he stay home while you visit them for the time being?

 

Personally, I would choose to limit exposure as much as possible until I started to see some changes as a result of the exercises.

 

I wish you the best. I know these kinds of things are so challenging to deal with. If you have read the CU book, you might want to consider joining the yahoo group. You would probably get some excellent suggestions there.

 

I agree with this. The more distance the better. Even if it seems silly like through a window or fence. If that is where he is comfortable than that is where you start. I personally know many dogs (and I am sure many people on these boards especially those in rescue do to) who were previously scared on certain people or animals, come around. Again, my own dog was petrified of my BF's 4 yo niece. Even showed teeth and ran when he first met her. Now, she can throw the frisbee for him and he brings it to her, and if she is still she can pet him under his chin and he is comfortable with that. He wouldn't let her hug him or run around screaming, but he is much better.

I know another BC who wouldn't let my BF touch him, ran and barked at him from 10 ft away. Now he can sit with him and feed him treats, no problem. Give it time and patience and your dog will become more comfortable. He may never be 100% okay with all actions by your Dad or brother but can definitely get to the point where he is fine being in the same room as them or lightly touched.

[Ooky]

How old is Ricky? What is his normal behavior like? (I'm not saying anything like abuse at all happened, I'm just asking what the kid is like.) How is Brady around other kids?

 

ETA I think BCs are superstitious and totally innocent mundane things can get them the wrong way sometimes.

[ejano]

I highly doubt her own dad and brother are going to sue her!!

 

(OP: It's with her son, whom I call my brother, that he becomes incredibly, incredibly reactive. If Ricky comes into the room, Brady becomes hyper-vigilant and will sometimes even bark defensively. He tenses up and is clearly very afraid)

 

It's not her brother -- it's her father's girlfriend's son. Sorry, but I'd rather err on the side of caution. One bite and any family relationship becomes strained and one that has no legal or blood ties...well, think about it.

 

I didn't say the dog was a huge liability because of her Dad. Nor would I say "give up on the dog." The dog is "incredibly, incredibly" reacting to the boy whose age is indeterminate. The dog's reactions, if not properly managed, could become a huge liability. He doesn't like the person. It's only a big deal if it becomes a pattern.

 

My post was intended to advise the OP to give the dog as much room as he needs to be comfortable, not "borrow" the other person and begin clicking away in hopes of fixing the problem. It doesn't work that way. Frankly, my concern grows when seeming solutions are offered without regard to the dangers inherit.

 

I totally agree with Ooky's post and in fact, pretty much said the same thing. BCs can get weird over different things without rhyme or reason. Respect that.

[waffles]

I agree with you. No one wants the dog to bite anyone but your post came off as a bit over the top. So many people are so quick to label a dog as aggressive or dangerous when they are not. So many people don't understand that a dog is capable of overcoming things. The dog is not going to be a danger if he is kept 100 ft away or through a window, no one suggested shoving them into a room and clicking away. No one said there was an easy fix or clear solution only that there were options to change the situation. Only the owner knows the dog best and not us strangers but it seems a lot of people overreact (and think barking and showing teeth instantly means the dog is going to bite) and then now the dog is being kept away from ALL men, dogs, children, family members, etc and the quality of life goes out the door for both dog and owner.

 

If I listened to some of the advice I have received about my dog when I first got him he would still be afraid of water, dogs, cats, bikes, busy streets, and all small children. People told me he will most likely be afraid of these things forever and to make accommodations. His quality of life would have been awful if I did not choose to work on his fears. Now he can go anywhere with me and not be afraid of encountering something scary (in fact, swimming is his most favorite activity next to frisbee!) well except fire works Maybe my guy was more open to changing but I know many dogs who have changed dramatically.

[SS Cressa]

Your dog could be reacting to some type of subtle change in your brother behavior/manner.

 

Could you keep them separate?

 

Sorry I don't have much suggestions.

 

Good luck

Eta: kept the relevant stuff. ;-)

[rushdoggie]

Second, it's okay if your dog doesn't like someone as long as you can prevent any aggression between the two. Keep in mind that if your dog bites, you are liable and the dog will suffer the consequences even if the incident is with a family member. Keep him and Ricky separated by a good distance - that is one that the dog feels comfortable with. Don't push it. Don't "borrow" Ricky.

 

You are right to point out the possible consequences of a bite. I was also going on the assumption that Ricky was an adult which I may have been wrong about. If he is a child the circumstances might change.

 

I also see your point here about the dog having a right to not like someone. My dog doesn't like strangers. I never ask him to allow people to pet him because he has the right to not have to deal with that. However, occasionally someone will need to touch him (vet, pet sitter, etc) so its my job to teach him to tolerate it and I will protect him. Because these people are Brady's mom's family, he will have to have them step into his life on some level at some point. Its worth training him to have a different emotional response so that he is not panicked about it. They don't have to pet him or actively engage him, but he should be able to stay calm when they are in the vicinity.

This is not a good time to experiment with CU (Sorry, Waffles, but a cat can't sue you or demand your dog be put down if something goes horribly wrong.).

 

I respectfully disagree, this is EXACTLY the time to engage on a program of conditioning a better emotional response to a fearful stimulus. As Root Beer said, there area lot of ways to do this and keep Ricky and her Dad safe (gates, leashes). Its too risky to not help him. CU is not just "clicking away in hopes to fix an issue." Its designed to condition the dog to feel safe and in control of a situation.

 

The OP lives in my area and I can help her with a few names of people who will help her in person if she is interested.

[ejano]

I agree with you. No one wants the dog to bite anyone but your post came off as a bit over the top. So many people are so quick to label a dog as aggressive or dangerous when they are not. So many people don't understand that a dog is capable of overcoming things. The dog is not going to be a danger if he is kept 100 ft away or through a window, no one suggested shoving them into a room and clicking away. No one said there was an easy fix or clear solution only that there were options to change the situation. Only the owner knows the dog best and not us strangers but it seems a lot of people overreact (and think barking and showing teeth instantly means the dog is going to bite) and then now the dog is being kept away from ALL men, dogs, children, family members, etc and the quality of life goes out the door for both dog and owner.

 

If I listened to some of the advice I have received about my dog when I first got him he would still be afraid of water, dogs, cats, bikes, busy streets, and all small children. People told me he will most likely be afraid of these things forever and to make accommodations. His quality of life would have been awful if I did not choose to work on his fears. Now he can go anywhere with me and not be afraid of encountering something scary (in fact, swimming is his most favorite activity next to frisbee!) well except fire works Maybe my guy was more open to changing but I know many dogs who have changed dramatically.

 

I'm not labeling the dog as aggressive or dangerous. The dog's actions will prove him out. All I'm saying is what everyone agrees to - don't push the dog beyond his comfort zone.

 

I agree that dogs can expand their horizons just like people but it worries me when you say your own dog showed teeth at a four year old and now she can pet him under his chin if she's not running too fast. What's going to happen if she suddenly zooms off? Your dog and others like him are not "cured" - they have been trained to withstand a certain level of pressure but diligence is necessary at all times, as well as being very careful to not stress the dog unduly.

 

My dear Ladybug ended up in the pound because she nipped at a toddler who pulled her hair over eight years ago. (To our good fortune...she's the best dog we'll ever own.)

 

I made up my mind when I brought her into the house to not try to rehabilitate her but to manage her quirks. In my mind, little ones are too fragile of a target for experimentation. It doesn't impact the quality of our life one bit as I've never been one to think that small children and Border Collies are a good mix especially if the child stands eye level with the dog. I put all of my dogs away when the little ones come. No big deal. Give her a boy of about 8 years old and she's in heaven but she doesn't like strange women. So when we're out and about, I tell women who would like to pet her that she was likely abused by a woman as she would prefer to not come near them and they're fine with that. I'm not protecting them, I'm protecting my dog from people she doesn't like. The difference is, she's not aggressive.

 

The reason why I do not try to change her is this:

 

I had a wonderful dog when we were first married that that I horribly mismanaged. He absolutely detested any kind of delivery person I'm lucky that we didn't lose him due to my idiocy. He had the self control to not bite - he just tore clothes. He had been with my husband's 10 year old nephew for about a year and had been teased/abused by a regular delivery person.

 

I foolishly thought I knew enough to to retrain him, with the advice of a local "expert". Well, I found out just what good the "expert's" advice was when he nipped at a lady mail carrier - barely tearing the sleeve of her shirt but it was her first week on the job and she really freaked out. The trouble that rained down on me was unbelievable. I nearly lost the dog to euthanasia at that point because my homeowner's insurance company had to pay a claim. Thank doG when the adjuster came he wasn't carrying a briefcase and the dog didn't see him as an enemy and laid his head on the guy's lap to be petted.

 

A year or so later, Woofer tore the stripe off a policeman's pants. The only thing that saved the dog then was that the cop was our friend, coming to tell us our stolen truck had been recovered...and the cop thought it was funny - would that the dog had been so diligent over the thieves! (My husband swears that he just recognized the truck motor and figured DH was going for a ride. At 2 AM, I asked?!) It became a standing joke in town.

 

I read some more; talked with more people. Worked with the dog. We put up a tall fence and kept the dog on a run inside the fence when he was outside. He tolerated people coming and going better as he aged. Regular delivery people, having heard the cop story, respected his personal space. But 7 years later, when the dog was nearly 10 years old, unbelievably he leaped into the air, stretching his line to the limits, cleared the fence just enough to managed to snatch in mid-air at the sleeve of a meter man who was walking just OUTSIDE of the fence perimeter because the man was headed toward my then 6 year old son, then zinged back through the air inside the fence. I was working in my flowerbed at the time, not ten feet away and I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it. The meter man escaped with a tear in his shirt and he was very understanding because my son and I were in tears over the incident. He had a little boy too and admired the dog's protectiveness. Nobody messed with Woofer's "boy", not even family members. He once pinned my sister against a wall when my son was a toddler and she tried to take him to the bathroom when I was out of the room. (I also keep my sister away from Ladybug today. She insists every dog loves her and Ladybug doesn't.)

 

Woofer lived a long and happy life with us and when he died at 14, I'm sure every delivery man in town would have gladly cheered at his funeral. We loved him dearly - and stupidly. This was over 30 years ago and there's a great deal I'd do differently today with him.

 

I also have a reactive dog now - Brodie loves all manner of people and in fact would make a great therapy dog as he flinches from nothing in a nursing home situation and I've found him happily sitting quietly with someone who has draped an arm around him.

 

But he's not real happy with other dogs. He will show teeth and he has nipped at other dogs in fear. Showing teeth is just one step down from nipping and the dog is telling you that he will nip if cornered. Brodie is sneaky. He tends to wait until the other dog goes by then darts to their flank. I sometimes think he's working from a misguided herding instinct when he does this, but in reality he's just trying to get the first shot in and one day he's going to get his clock cleaned if he and I are not careful.

 

I've worked with him using CU and LAT to some success. He's got his CGC and a few carefully chosen playmates. I doubt he'll ever be entirely comfortable with other dogs and that's okay. I respect his quirks and fears and the personal distance he needs. My goal is to not turn him into the town greeter. I just want him to be comfortable at a stock dog trial, should we ever get that far. I'm hoping to get him back into a Karen Pryor clinic come spring to increase his comfort level.

 

This is not to demean your or anyone else's efforts. People do marvelous things with fearful dogs and I've seen great improvements in Brodie. But I do believe that the fear lingers and one should be ever watchful for the dog's sake. Woofer was very lucky to live out his life. In today's climate, he'd have been put down because of the insurance claim. I'd hate to see that happen to any dog because of an unwary or uneducated owner.

[Root Beer]

I doubt he'll ever be entirely comfortable with other dogs and that's okay. I respect his quirks and fears and the personal distance he needs. My goal is to not turn him into the town greeter.

 

I've come to a very similar point with Speedy. He has come so far and he passes for normal in almost every situation. I am perfectly comfortable letting him play loose on the beach, with strange dogs and even children milling around.

 

Yet, I respect what he needs and at Thanksgiving, when our two young nephews come to the house, he is in a room where they do not have access to him. Energetic boys in his personal space would be far too much.

 

I certainly don't expect him to be the town greeter, but I have always worked toward helping him to learn to cope with as many situations as have been realistically possible. There are some situations that I would not put him in at all, others I would put him in with supervision, and others that I completely trust him in.

 

I also got the impression that Ricky was an adult, or at least an older teen. In that case, I would say that involving him in desensitization may be a great idea. Again, in a very controlled manner, using windows and fences to provide Brady the space he needs throughout the process. If Ricky is a young child, or an older child who lacks impulse control and could not be trusted to follow instructions, then involving him may not be a good idea, and complete separation may be the best way to go, at least for now.

[brady's mom]

I'm so sorry for not giving an age, because it's led to some confusion.

 

Ricky's 17 and is about to graduate high school, so I consider him an adult. Even though he's not related to me by blood, he's every bit a little brother to me and if there was a bite, it wouldn't put strain on the family and I wouldn't get sued; I'd probably be asked to take more control of the situation, but it wouldn't turn into a legal mess or anything. He was also only in the home during the 10 days that I left Brady with them for about 3 days--he was at his dad's, at school, or at work the rest of the time.

 

A bite and further aggression is specifically what I'm trying to prevent. Right now, Brady's not lunging or attacking (he's very avoidant), but he's clearly distressed and panicked. I can see it in him. The whites of his eyes are showing, his body's very, very tense, he's growling, and he fear-barks (which is this really, I don't even know how to describe it; it just sounds panicky to me in comparison to what he usually is). But, I don't want to wait until there is a physical altercation to ask for help, I want to help...now. If not for my family's sake (my dad LOVES him and he's helped ease the pain after Jazmyn's recent loss) and safety,then for my dog, who I love and cherish above all else. I just want to see him calm and confident in the situation. If he never ends up accepting Ricky to the point of friendship again, that's fine. I just want him to be able to navigate a visit with them without being totally, completely afraid. I think that's my responsibility as an owner to help him feel safe and to be able to tell him 'it's ok.' I just want to stop this before it becomes a much bigger issue, I owe that much to him and to my family.

 

When I meant borrow, it was more of a phrase--and I'm sorry for causing any kind of confusion or ill feelings, I really didn't mean to. I've just been in such a rush with this whole thing that I haven't really sat down and typed my thoughts thoroughly.

 

Giving him that much space is kind of hard, because when I visit them, I have to bring him along. There's no one who can watch him in Vancouver and I am loathe to board him--we've had some bad experiences, so I've just kind of. shut down that option entirely. Plus, he's goes everywhere with me and I'm as attached to him as he is to me.

 

On the subject of something happening, I think it's entirely possible, but I don't think it would have been intentionally directed at him like some of you have suggested.

 

Is it also possible that he correlates them with me leaving him? Since none of this started to happen until after he was left with them for 10 days?

 

I'd really like to try the window method paired with the LAT game. He love, love, LOVES LAT. He seems to thoroughly enjoy the game, I've just never paired it with a high-anxiety situation before because this literally only happens with them. He's bombproof the rest of the time, including with young children, which is why our experience with CU has been limited to the book and what I've gleaned from her youtube. I love the program. And if it weren't for these boards, would never have been introduced to the program, for that I'm very, very thankful.

 

I don't know how relevant this is, but Brady's really attentive to detail. If something he notices is different from the norm, he will alert me to it. He'll growl at the ceiling fan when it's turned on or will growl at a bag of groceries set on the counter that wasn't there an hour ago. But from the stories I had read on here, it seemed that this was a relatively normal trait in collies, so I never thought twice about it. I suppose that could have a hand in all of this as well.

 

 

Sorry for the muddled thoughts, I'm operating on a sick brain.

 

We're home now, and he's absolutely fine. But, then again, he's king of the castle here.

[mbc1963]

Don't have much new to add, except that my reactive dog can be desensitized to almost anything - with enough time and space. There's an "odd" man down the street (borderline homeless except SSI covers his rent, I think). The guy's a decent person, but always around, always talking to everyone, and he's got an old dog trailing after him. It took a couple years and a lot of time and patience, but Buddy will at this point let the guy wrap his arms around him and snuggle. Started with distance, then barely approaching, then patting, and now it's all good.

 

Likewise, my sister's puppies. I wrote about them before - two tiny little things, and the delicate balance of sisterly good will - and weekly walks in the woods - threatened by Buddy's general dislike of any other dog coming in his face. But yesterday, we took them out off leash for the second time, and I swear (Buddy would kill me for admitting this!)... he LIKES them. He let them sniff right in his face, hang on his butt, brush by him, frolic ridiculously near him, and he never got any reactive body language at all. He even ran playfully with them a couple times. Again, this all started with very slow exposure, treats, sniffing through the fence, walking on leash with safe distance between the dogs, etc.. It took five months and the puppies' maturation into young adult dogs before I felt safe trying the off-leash thing.

 

Buddy has learned to love many strangers that he didn't like originally, if I laid the groundwork correctly. I didn't know about CU, but what I picked up from my trainer and reading other books was just to give the distance and time necessary, and not to push when I saw reactive behavior. Seems to me that if Ricky is mature and willing to work on this under your guidelines, it can be a winning situation.

 

Having said all that, I teach teenagers, and one thing that always startles me is how different their behavior is in front of parents and family vs. away from parents and family. The bounds of normal teenage behavior when a mother isn't standing there are almost limitless. Especially if a couple buddies are around - the extra testosterone makes the stupidity go up exponentially. So, assume Ricky is an innocent victim of a thunder bolt when he happened to be near the dog, or a static shock when he petted the dog. But, I'd also file away that Ricky looks and acts and smells like a teenager to the dog - and predictability and stability aren't in the teenage wiring. I wouldn't be leaving the dog unattended in the boy's presence... just in case.

 

Mary

[Ooky]

Having said all that, I teach teenagers, and one thing that always startles me is how different their behavior is in front of parents and family vs. away from parents and family. The bounds of normal teenage behavior when a mother isn't standing there are almost limitless. Especially if a couple buddies are around - the extra testosterone makes the stupidity go up exponentially. So, assume Ricky is an innocent victim of a thunder bolt when he happened to be near the dog, or a static shock when he petted the dog. But, I'd also file away that Ricky looks and acts and smells like a teenager to the dog - and predictability and stability aren't in the teenage wiring. I wouldn't be leaving the dog unattended in the boy's presence... just in case.

 

Mary

 

Yes, this. I would not expect my dog to consider a teenage boy in the same category as adult, same as I can tell he distinguishes older child from toddler. Each of these ages has their own smells and unpredictable behaviors, and he treats each age group differently. That's not to say Odin doesn't like teens because of their energy and weird smell, actually I think he does generally like teens quite well, at least the nice ones I've introduced him to. He is accepting of unpredictability and genuinely likes children and other energetic people. But even with him, I could see a teen boy accidentally freaking him out just from being momentarily loud or vaulting over the furniture or riding on a DREADED UNTRUSTWORTHY skateboard.

 

During this process I would be looking, especially in a dog Brady's age, to whether this really does seem specific to Ricky, or if Brady is becoming more generally reactive to certain types of people. It doesn't even have to be age, it could be height or deep voice or even just that he's a guy. Just so you can try and take a proactive stance if it is the early signs of a more general reactivity, or a more general "I don't do well with teens/loud men/tall/bearded/whatever". There is also the distinct possibility this is totally specific and an unlucky fluke.

 

It sounds like you have a very good head on your shoulders with Brady, I'm hoping some of the CU work that was mentioned could help you be able to bring him to their house since there seems to be no other option. Maybe if he was too stressed he could hang out in your car at times while you were there, or something to get some distance and downtime.

[rushdoggie]

Ooky, that's a really good point.

[OurBoys]

I could see a teen boy accidentally freaking him out just from being momentarily loud or vaulting over the furniture or riding on a DREADED UNTRUSTWORTHY skateboard.

Or, if he had the house to himself for an hour or 2, cranking the music up really loud, and/or having a friend over and they start picking on each other or having earbuds in with the music loud (teenage boy has noise coming out of his head making strange faces and movements).

 

Kristi, there's no telling what set Brady off. But whatever it was, thank you for working with him. Good luck!

[waffles]

I'm not labeling the dog as aggressive or dangerous. The dog's actions will prove him out. All I'm saying is what everyone agrees to - don't push the dog beyond his comfort zone.

 

I agree that dogs can expand their horizons just like people but it worries me when you say your own dog showed teeth at a four year old and now she can pet him under his chin if she's not running too fast. What's going to happen if she suddenly zooms off? Your dog and others like him are not "cured" - they have been trained to withstand a certain level of pressure but diligence is necessary at all times, as well as being very careful to not stress the dog unduly.

 

 

I am not responding to everything because I do not have time but I NEVER said my dog was cured or good around all children. He has been around this 4 yo 3 or 4 times. By the 2nd time he was much more comfortable (he would be fine if she was running around just not in his face, jumping on him, hugging him, etc). I would never allow him to feel so scared that he had to bite. The child knows not to approach him without permission and would never be left alone together. Maybe because I have worked in a grooming salon for years and volunteered with rescues but I am confident in working with dogs that others would say are scary or dangerous. I have been growled at, barked at aggressively, lunged at,etc and have never been hurt more than a small cut. I can see with your past dogs why you would respond the way you did but I'm coming from a different place. I have only seen a few, what I would call truly human aggressive dogs and it is a crazy thing to witness. I have seen a GSD wrap its front legs around a mans body and completely lose it, if not for a muzzle the man would be in the hospital. I have handled dogs at my previous job who would literally tear your face off if you bent down near their open crate door. These types of dogs are not as common and are not on the same level as most dogs who bark and snarl and who are labeled aggressive by most people.

 

I would never take my dog to a kids birthday party obviously and do not ever allow children to approach him but with this one child he is fine now. There may be times in the future he will have to be in the same area as her so it was important for her and my dog to understand the boundaries (same thing with the OPs dog and her family, there is a good reason for why she would want to work with hiim). If you would like to debate my dogs behaviors please PM me. This thread is about the OP's dog who I believe is more than capable of tolerating the family members to some point (same room no physical contact, etc) if given the right guidance.

[ejano]

I am not responding to everything because I do not have time but I NEVER said my dog was cured or good around all children. He has been around this 4 yo 3 or 4 times. By the 2nd time he was much more comfortable (he would be fine if she was running around just not in his face, jumping on him, hugging him, etc). I would never allow him to feel so scared that he had to bite. The child knows not to approach him without permission and would never be left alone together. Maybe because I have worked in a grooming salon for years and volunteered with rescues but I am confident in working with dogs that others would say are scary or dangerous. I have been growled at, barked at aggressively, lunged at,etc and have never been hurt more than a small cut. I can see with your past dogs why you would respond the way you did but I'm coming from a different place. I have only seen a few, what I would call truly human aggressive dogs and it is a crazy thing to witness. I have seen a GSD wrap its front legs around a mans body and completely lose it, if not for a muzzle the man would be in the hospital. I have handled dogs at my previous job who would literally tear your face off if you bent down near their open crate door. These types of dogs are not as common and are not on the same level as most dogs who bark and snarl and who are labeled aggressive by most people.

 

I would never take my dog to a kids birthday party obviously and do not ever allow children to approach him but with this one child he is fine now. There may be times in the future he will have to be in the same area as her so it was important for her and my dog to understand the boundaries (same thing with the OPs dog and her family, there is a good reason for why she would want to work with hiim). If you would like to debate my dogs behaviors please PM me. This thread is about the OP's dog who I believe is more than capable of tolerating the family members to some point (same room no physical contact, etc) if given the right guidance.

 

 

I am not talking about human aggressive dogs. My point throughout this thread is that are no quick and easy fixes for any kind of behavior (if there were, Robin wouldn't still be barking every time somebody picks up a ball!).

 

I am not debating your training skills or expertise and my statements are general (except for the first one regarding the cats). It's fine with me if you trust your dog around a child based on your experience and knowledge of the dog and the child. That's your business - and the child's mother's. In the same vein, allow me the right to believe that any breed of dog that doesn't grow up in a house with the child is a bad bet because I don't trust the child to continually behave in a manner that will keep the dog comfortable. Incidents happen when you least expect them. This is why the OP's dog is suddenly fearful of a particular person. Something happened.

 

Small children as a general rule are a very untrustworthy lot. One minute they are petting "nice nice" and the next they've tweaked an ear or are zooming off, screaming that the dog licked them. Several people have pointed out (and I agree) that Border Collies sometimes find teenage behavior freaky too, which may be the heart of the problem, particularly if the dog is noise sensitive.

[Canaqua]

Is it also possible that he correlates them with me leaving him? Since none of this started to happen until after he was left with them for 10 days?

 

In my experience, yes. Our ACD mix is my husband's dog and she is very emotionally dependent on him. She is stressed whenever he is not around. She accepts me as a suitable substitute for several days, but if he's gone much long than that she becomes more and more fearful and aggressive...not toward me, but to strangers. A lot more alarm barking too. She stays with my mother when we go on vacation and she reports the same behavior...that Dale is good and relatively calm for several days but then becomes more and more stressed. We've been limiting our vacations to no more than a week, because we discovered that at anything more than a week she starts to become unmanageable.

 

Same thing happens with my brother's lovely, sweet, Lab mix. I've always cared for him when they are out of town without trouble, for 4-6 days at a time. But, this summer, the went to France and were gone for two whole weeks. During the last 3 days, the Lab was really losing it. He did not want to go outside and was starting to growl at anyone who came near me (apparently his security blanket when he started to panic that his owner's weren't coming home). He eventually started growling at me too, when I wanted him to come outside to do his business. VERY uncharacteristic of this dog.

 

Now, both dogs reverted to their normal behavior once everyone was back where they belonged and don't appear to hold any grudges against those who were caring for them in their owners' absence, so I can't explain why your dog is still upset and fearful of Ricky after you've returned...except that BCs can be a little different .