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Hi Ya'll...came to my attention that BCSA(Border collie society of America) aka "parent club" for the AKC, is currently in the work to change the "standard" for breed showing that has been standing since the breed got inducted I believe?? Please correct me if I'm wrong...

 

Also correct me if I'm wrong, but I know of at least 2 working bred border collie people who were at least somewhat influencial in writing the original standard..TRYING to write it to reflect conformation that would be suitable to a working dog and if anybody has read the original standard..it's pretty vague compared to most breed standards, alot is open to interpretation than usual in my opinion.

 

ANYWAY, not that I care about any of the BREED stuff, but find it interesting to see the direction the BCSA is taking..

 

Long time USBCHA open trainers/handlers have trickled down with there involvement in "TRYING" to make a difference with decisions within the club...all but maybe 1 or 2 remain..and I know another long standing USBCHA open handler who will be leaving the club finally after many years....

 

More and more "Breed people" or sport people have taken over the club....and there decisions are reflecting that...arguing over things like the "stockdog of destinction" award and the fact that the dog should not have to trial in USBCHA/ISDS trials in order to get the award, etc..

 

The "breeder referal" section of there website(where ALL people looking for a border collie breeder) is slowly been flooded of primarily Conformation/sport breeders(with an occasional HSAs or d)...

 

 

SO..I am not a "breed" person and do not support it AT ALL for breeding/ or anything...I do compete in dog sports but do not believe in breeding for sports...my main focus is stockwork and even though I am still a relative novice I am currently trialing at the USBCHA pro-novice level and get out to sheep 2-4 times a week...

 

I personaly think this gradual shift in the BCSA to conformation "sporter" collies is not a bad thing...even more seperate from our working border collies..the breed will split even more exteremly over time..

 

However, I do worry about trying to reach people new to the breed, and what the general public will see as a "border collie" due to the gradual exctinction of the true working border collie in the largest and most popular breed registry in the nation..

 

Thoughts??

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Correction...I didn't mean that ALL people look for a border collie in the BCSA breeder referal section...but if you're a newer dog person, and you go to the AKC website to look for a breeder, they refer you to the BCSA and on the BCSA sends you to there breeder referal list..

 

So a large amount of "pet people" or newer people looking to get pups will be visiting this list..

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Hi Ya'll...came to my attention that BCSA(Border collie society of America) aka "parent club" for the AKC, is currently in the work to change the "standard" for breed showing that has been standing since the breed got inducted I believe?? Please correct me if I'm wrong...

 

Also correct me if I'm wrong, but I know of at least 2 working bred border collie people who were at least somewhat influencial in writing the original standard..TRYING to write it to reflect conformation that would be suitable to a working dog and if anybody has read the original standard..it's pretty vague compared to most breed standards, alot is open to interpretation than usual in my opinion.

 

Do you know any of the specific changes they are proposing? I'm just curious.

 

I realize you might not have that kind of detail, but I figured I'd ask.

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OK..I know very limited about showing in conformation..but I know that the border collie standard is very vague compared to other breed standards. I think the silly AKC people attempted to try and take into account the unique-ness of the breed as a working dog, left ALOT of le-way in the standard. That's why BACK IN THE DAY according to "here say" from others..dogs from working bred lines with ABCA pedigrees only were able to show, win AND get there breed CH...as we all know sacrificing there ABCA registration once that was put into effect)..

 

I also notice that breeds that have more complicated standards seem to be able to win BIG CONFORMATION shows..Best in shows...etc...the more descriptive the standard the more often "perfection" or whatever according to there standard seems to be rewarded with winning Best Of Shows, Best of Groups, etc..border collies being shown in conformation seem to hardly EVER win Best in Show, I'm assuming because of there more vague standard.

 

SO..I'm ASSUMING the large quantity of "Breed people" over taking the BCSA want to re-write the standard to be more in detail, focusing obsessively even MORE on ther ear carriage, shape of the head, barf and barf....to encourage the popularity and competitiveness of the border collie as a dog in conformation shows..

 

This is all just my take on it....

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Maybe the reason the show BC's are not winning in the big shows is the poor quality of the dogs? IMO the sooner they split off the better. As for pet people, hopefully they will honor the typical show breeder s/n contract. If they truely want a real BC they will do some research, although I know the show word talks poorly of the working world-just like the working people speak poorly of the show dogs. The show world will NEVER understand breeding dogs for working standard, so the sooner theymake the seperation the better (too bad ABCA can't do much about it on their end)

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I also think the sooner and cleaner the split, the better - but in the real world I think this is much more possible and feasible with barbie collies than sporter collies. I mean we just had that huge thread where(although I know Serena does not speak for all of agilitydom) it really seems like the reason collies are the best sport dog is BECAUSE of being bred for work. And it would appear based on that conversation and other conversations we've had in the past here involving looking at specific sport dog's pedigrees that the sport breeders know this...or at least understand just enough to be dangerous. In which I mean that they still want to breed FOR agility - but they want to use working lines at least periodically to do so.

 

So, I guess what I'm saying is that confo dogs are pretty easy to tell apart at this point and have a specific look and from all I've heard a simultaneous change in drive etc. True sport people may not care too much about what their dog looks like, but they DO want certain types of function and temperament - which orginated from and still comes from being bred for the WORK. So at least from all I've heard the confo-bred collies typically won't suit the competitive sport needs anyway, and will even less so as time goes on and breeding for confo continues.

 

I think there's also the danger of people attempting to use BOTH confo and working lines to create agility dogs in attempts to have the function packaged with a certain look. Sort of a hybridization zone. In that case I wonder if performance breeding may itself act as an avenue preventing full separation of confo and working breedings - although I guess that could be accomplished by any number of non-working pet-type breeders and BYBs too.

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I think there's also the danger of people attempting to use BOTH confo and working lines to create agility dogs in attempts to have the function packaged with a certain look. Sort of a hybridization zone.

 

Well, there's also the danger of me taking parts from a Ferrari and a pickup truck and trying to make a vehicle that looks like a pickup truck but drives like a Ferrari. The resulting vehicle will be expensive to fix when I try to stuff a pallet of 2 x 4's into the back seat and will have the 0-60 time of a three legged-donkey. In other words, about as successful as crossing a Barbie Collie with a Border Collie to get a Sport Collie.

 

 

Pearse

 

 

 

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The Border Collie standard was already changed once in March 2004.

 

Also, the Border Collie (well, the Stepford Collie) has had a number of group placements at Westminster KC, including at least one (maybe 2, too lazy to look) Group 1.

 

Honestly, the AKC dogs look like carbon copies to me. In terms of beauty, I prefer the range of 'type' prevalent in the working dogs, particularly since I know the latter are being bred for brains, not beauty. I find it ironic that they are (IMO) more beautiful than the AKC dogs. Eh, I guess it's in the eye of the beholder.

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Honestly, the AKC dogs look like carbon copies to me. In terms of beauty, I prefer the range of 'type' prevalent in the working dogs, particularly since I know the latter are being bred for brains, not beauty. I find it ironic that they are (IMO) more beautiful than the AKC dogs. Eh, I guess it's in the eye of the beholder.

 

I was actually wondering if these changes might be because so much is being lost in the look (and everything else) of the conformation bred Border Collie. I guess conformation folks don't see it that way, but that would make sense to me from my perspective.

 

That's why I was curious as to what the exact changes are possibly being proposed.

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As far as I understand it, the "breed standard" for the show Border Collie was based on the AU/NZ breed standard (which, in turn, is what I believe the KC or British kennel club's stand is based on). Showing of Border Collies in AU/NZ goes back over a century, and has a much shorter history in the UK, and even shorter in the US.

 

A comparison of breed standards for AU (ANKC), NZ (NZKC), USA (AKC), Canada (CKC, where I didn't think they could be shown in conformation as CBCA is the only registry for Border Collies in that country), and the United Kingdom (KC) is found here.

 

Reading some websites belonging to folks who support and bred for the kennel club would lead one to believe that the show standard is more representative of the historical dogs than the current-day "average" working-bred dog - which, according to one site, is due to breeding for the trial field - I guess, as opposed to breeding for real hill work. Hmm.

 

An interesting aside is that ISDS-registered dogs/bitches must also be registered with the KC in order to have their pups registered in a number of European countries where the FCI (I think that's it) is the only registry for purebred dogs, since the FCI only recognizes/reciprocates with the KC and not ISDS. That's putting the cart before the horse, IMO, with regards to working-bred dogs. That's the way it has been explained to me, and a reason why some very top working-bred dogs have dual registration in the UK - strictly for this purpose and not because their owners wish to suppport the KC.

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An interesting aside is that ISDS-registered dogs/bitches must also be registered with the KC in order to have their pups registered in a number of European countries where the FCI (I think that's it) is the only registry for purebred dogs, since the FCI only recognizes/reciprocates with the KC and not ISDS. That's putting the cart before the horse, IMO, with regards to working-bred dogs. That's the way it has been explained to me, and a reason why some very top working-bred dogs have dual registration in the UK - strictly for this purpose and not because their owners wish to suppport the KC.

 

Federation Cynologique Internationale is a federation of member dog clubs, and although the KC (as well as AKC and CKC) are not members, each of those three registries has a letter of agreement with FCI.

 

 

Additionally, FCI pretty much has the balance of the world's kennel clubs as members, from Asian countries to South Africa and South America; not just Europe. So I can see why working breeders might feel pressured to accept KC registration. I agree as well re: the cart before the horse thing.

 

 

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A comparison of breed standards for AU (ANKC), NZ (NZKC), USA (AKC), Canada (CKC, where I didn't think they could be shown in conformation as CBCA is the only registry for Border Collies in that country), and the United Kingdom (KC) is found here.

 

Fear not, a few years ago the CKC held a referendum of CKC members that allowed the Border Collie to be shown as a listed breed in comformation. That the only legal registry (CBCA) is against it appears to be irrelevant.

 

At least if one shows in CKC Conformation one can't be a member of CBCA. So one is showing what is not a legally registered Border Collie in Canada.

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Fear not, a few years ago the CKC held a referendum of CKC members that allowed the Border Collie to be shown as a listed breed in comformation. That the only legal registry (CBCA) is against it appears to be irrelevant.

 

At least if one shows in CKC Conformation one can't be a member of CBCA. So one is showing what is not a legally registered Border Collie in Canada.

This (from the CBCA website concerning registration of litters - maybe also individual animals? - currently registered with other "recognized" registries) seems to indicate that litters from dogs/bitches that are registered solely with AKC, KC, etc., can be registered with CBCA. So, apparently (unless I'm reading something wrong), show-bred and KC-registered litters (and maybe individuals) can gain CBCA registration.

 

Currently recognized Registries by the Association are:

 

Section A Registries

 

ISDS of Great Britain

American Border Collie Association

American International Border Collie Association

North American Sheep Dog Society

 

Section B Registries

 

United Kingdom Kennel Club

American Kennel Club

Australian Kennel Club

 

This seems contrary to this statement:

 

Despite our best efforts CKC has decided to allow Border Collies to compete conformation (and all other events). While CBCA has no issue with Border Collies competing in performance events we have strong reservations about conformation showing as this will probably lead to Border Collies being bred for looks rather than work. The board feels that such showing is contrary to the objectives of CBCA. As such persons showing border collies in conformation are not eligible for membership in CBCA.

 

If showing Border Collies is contrary to what CBCA promotes (working ability) then why would registering Border Collies of show-background be allowed? Curious, or maybe I am misunderstanding. How about some of you Canadians explaining this to me or correcting me?

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A comparison of breed standards for AU (ANKC), NZ (NZKC), USA (AKC), Canada (CKC, where I didn't think they could be shown in conformation as CBCA is the only registry for Border Collies in that country), and the United Kingdom (KC) is found here.

 

 

The Canadian Kennel Club changed its rules three or four years ago, to allow dogs from different Canadian registeries to compete in all their events, including conformation. THey aren't registered as a breed with the Canadian Kennel Club, they get a competition number.

 

Years ago, when the CKC was wanting to be the registry for Border Collies, and the CBCA was formed, we warned them that this would happen - that sooner or later the Canadian Kennel Club would allow Border Collies to compete in everything, not just performance events, and now that has come to pass and they can't do anything about it.

 

The orginal motion that the Canadian Kennel Club had passed back in 1992, that would have regulated what Border Collies could compete in with respect to the Canadian Kennel Club events, was that no border collie could compete in conformation events until it had successfully competed and won 5 Open Trials (not CKC trials, but regular stockdog trials), beating out a minimum of 10 or 12 other dogs each time. I can't remember the exact number. It would have been the first time that any breed would be required to prove it's working heritage before being allowed in the conformation ring.

 

I am not giving this information to start an argument, etc., just simply giving the information so people know why and how Border Collies got to be eligible to compete in Canadian Kennel Club conformation events.

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The CBCA must register purebred border collies and there are rules around that (the A & B designations); If one shows in confirmation than that person may not be a member of the CBCA; Hence their fees to register would be higher if I understand correctly.

 

The problem with the CKC voting to include the border collie is that other breeds were the ones that voted in the border collie. It sucks!

 

I wasn't in with the original motion but it would be interesting to hear more about it. I think that if the original motion had the CKC being the registry, it would have been much sooner that the border collies would have been shown in confirmation, ie the Open trials are too hard...

 

Cynthia

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The CBCA must register purebred border collies and there are rules around that (the A & B designations); If one shows in confirmation than that person may not be a member of the CBCA; Hence their fees to register would be higher if I understand correctly.

 

The problem with the CKC voting to include the border collie is that other breeds were the ones that voted in the border collie. It sucks!

 

I wasn't in with the original motion but it would be interesting to hear more about it. I think that if the original motion had the CKC being the registry, it would have been much sooner that the border collies would have been shown in confirmation, ie the Open trials are too hard...

 

Cynthia

 

CBCA does have A and B dogs, depending on parentage.

 

The motion by the CKC back in 1992 would have effectively precluded the border collie from being shown in conformation, as no one would be prepared to put in all the time and money - and years - to fulfill the requirements of being able to show in conformation by having to be able to train a dog to the standard required. THe other part of the motion was that in order to have that motion changed, or rescinded, it would have had to be done by a poll of all border collie owners/breeders.

 

Now, there is no barrier to showing Border Collies in CKC conformation shows.

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The way I read things on the CBCA website, a litter can not be registered with CBCA if it has an unregistered (and that includes ROM) ancestor within three generations, but it can be registered if it has AKC, KC, or ANKC parentage for all three generations. I don't understand this at all - that a litter from proven parentage (with one ancestor within three generations proven by ROM) can't be registered but a litter that has nothing but show breeding for generations can be.

 

Am I reading things wrong? And I am not trying to start any argument as I know rules are made with regards to a lot more than is visible on a webpage, but I am not understanding the "why" of this at all.

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CBCA does have A and B dogs, depending on parentage.

Other than what I quoted above, I didn't see anything about A and B dogs but I spent little time on the website. Can you summarize this?

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The way I read things on the CBCA website, a litter can not be registered with CBCA if it has an unregistered (and that includes ROM) ancestor within three generations, but it can be registered if it has AKC, KC, or ANKC parentage for all three generations. I don't understand this at all - that a litter from proven parentage (with one ancestor within three generations proven by ROM) can't be registered but a litter that has nothing but show breeding for generations can be.

 

Am I reading things wrong? And I am not trying to start any argument as I know rules are made with regards to a lot more than is visible on a webpage, but I am not understanding the "why" of this at all.

 

 

Sue, the registration of purebred animals in Canada is regulated with the Animal Pedigree Act. YOu don't have that in the United States, so each United States registry can make up their own rules about which dogs they choose to register or reject.

 

A few years ago CBCA had decided that they would not allow border collies to be registered with them that contained any dogs from "conformation" registeries, such as AKC, FCI, KC, etc. That is illegal under the Animal Pedigree Act. As long as the paperwork etc from those registeries are acceptable according the Bylaws of CBCA, CBCA has to register those dogs. So CBCA created their "A" registry - those border collies from ABCA, ISDS, etc. The "B" registry is for border collies that contain any dogs in their pedigrees registered with AKC, FCI, Australian Kennel Club, KC, etc.

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That is illegal under the Animal Pedigree Act. As long as the paperwork etc from those registeries are acceptable according the Bylaws of CBCA, CBCA has to register those dogs.

 

This is infuriating on so many levels. What does Big Brother know about dog breeding ffs?

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This is infuriating on so many levels. What does Big Brother know about dog breeding ffs?

 

Because dogs fall under the Animal Pedigree Act, so are subject to the same regulations as horse, cattle, pigs, etc. etc.

 

On the other hand, we can't have every Tom, Dick and Harry start up their own breed registry like they can in the United States, and then only allow certain people to register with them, according to whether they like that person, their dogs, or whatever other policitics are going on in that breed. Also, we can't have crossbreed registrys for cockapoos, etc like you can in the STates.

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Sue, the registration of purebred animals in Canada is regulated with the Animal Pedigree Act. YOu don't have that in the United States, so each United States registry can make up their own rules about which dogs they choose to register or reject.

 

A few years ago CBCA had decided that they would not allow border collies to be registered with them that contained any dogs from "conformation" registeries, such as AKC, FCI, KC, etc. That is illegal under the Animal Pedigree Act. As long as the paperwork etc from those registeries are acceptable according the Bylaws of CBCA, CBCA has to register those dogs. So CBCA created their "A" registry - those border collies from ABCA, ISDS, etc. The "B" registry is for border collies that contain any dogs in their pedigrees registered with AKC, FCI, Australian Kennel Club, KC, etc.

Thanks, I did know that CBCA is the sole registry for Border Collies in Canada (or at least that's what I thought I understood under the APA). I see what you are saying about the A and B.

 

Thank you for answering those questions!

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On the other hand, we can't have every Tom, Dick and Harry start up their own breed registry like they can in the United States, and then only allow certain people to register with them, according to whether they like that person, their dogs, or whatever other policitics are going on in that breed. Also, we can't have crossbreed registrys for cockapoos, etc like you can in the STates.

And, in spite of my American bias towards less governmental regulations, this appeals to me greatly!

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Sorry for diverging from the original topic.

 

Suffice it to say that I distrust about anything the AKC, or its parent club, the BCSA, proposes because I feel that in general, any propositions are really to further the agendas of AKC and BCSA (which are both driven largely by the show-ring and performance sports mindsets, IMO), not the maintenance and improvement of the working-bred Border Collie.

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