JaderBug Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 Would you steal a dog to save it from a bad situation? A friend of mine's parents have a dog that is essentially being mentally/emotionally abused. The dog is a one year old intact English Shepherd male who has not been properly raised- the owners did a lot of inappropriate things with him at a young age and pretty much set him up for failure. The (male) owners teased him a lot, and by tease I mean intentionally scaring and bullying him and were getting fear-aggressive/fear-reactive behaviors as a result, because 'it was funny.' They also would set him up for failure when he was young by driving very loud machinery around him without any reassurances or any way to get away or escape from the situation (read: tethered), he would just panic. Now the dog is a year old and is acting aggressive to the bigger male members of the family, including baring teeth, growling, and recently trapping/cornering. He is fine with women and kids, but not alright with bigger louder men (whose effing fault it is that he's like this in the first place). My friend's dad wants him to be a cattle dog and help around the farm, however he isn't willing to work with the dog or fix any of his mistakes. Think about the most stubborn and pig-headed person you've ever met... this guy is worse. There is absolutely no sense to any of it. Wants results but doesn't want to put any time or effort into him. He has had ESs before and have been good working dogs for him, but for some reason he's being a total jerk to this dog. My friend has had absolutely zero luck/progress/anything in getting her dad to realize the consequences of his actions, this is an absolutely no-win situation for the poor dog. We are worried that her dad's behavior is one day going to result in him getting bitten and the dog will end up with a bullet in his head, which her dad caused from the beginning. Not the dog's fault, and my friend is at the end of her rope, she doesn't know what to do for the dog anymore. Her dad will not even consider anything she tells him, she's also desperately been trying to convince them to neuter him. If he stays in that situation, it is honestly only a matter of time before something bad happens. I am seriously considering assisting in a dog-napping here (because, hey, dog thefts DO happen...) to try and save this poor boy from a situation where he will only lose. Of course I think that would only result in him going out and getting another ES, and round and round we go. What would you do? What do you think? (ETA: The dog has adequate food, water, and shelter... to my knowledge there is no physical abuse going on. Just the ruining of an innocent dog.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderlineCrazy(: Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 What about possibly calling a local ES rescue and informing them of the situation? Because if you were to get caught, you could be in legal trouble.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaderBug Posted November 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 Because if you were to get caught, you could be in legal trouble.. That's the only thing I'd be worried about, too... which is why it seems like a last resort. Just don't know what to do for him... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderlineCrazy(: Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 Where are you located? Are there any ES rescues in your state? Wait, is it an English Shepherd, or an English Sheepdog? I always get the two mixed up.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaderBug Posted November 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 Where are you located? Are there any ES rescues in your state? Wait, is it an English Shepherd, or an English Sheepdog? I always get the two mixed up.. I know of some rescues that would be able to take him. But this isn't a situation where the dog would be relinquished or given up, they won't even let their daughter take him away for a week or two to work with him... English Shepherd. In the BC/Aussie family... not the big puffballs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderlineCrazy(: Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 I know of some rescues that would be able to take him. But this isn't a situation where the dog would be relinquished or given up.... In that case...Maybe this is a dog that you "found wandering the streets", if you do decide to take him from the owners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloria Atwater Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 Interesting that the daughter sounds like a willing potential conspirator. ~ Gloria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KelliePup Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 Umm... I may or may not have done that before in extreme cases... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G. Festerling Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 I will admit to alienating a dog decades ago. They knew too. But they also knew they had no legs to stand on!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 And if you steal the dog and a alert comes acrossed from the ES community in our area what would you like us to do? My new sheep just came from a board member of the ES club, also very active in rescue. Would you like her contact information? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gcv-border Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 I am seriously considering assisting in a dog-napping here (because, hey, dog thefts DO happen...) to try and save this poor boy from a situation where he will only lose. Of course I think that would only result in him going out and getting another ES, and round and round we go. What would you do? What do you think? This sounds like a horrible situation. I commend you for trying to find a solution that is to the benefit of the dog. If this dog was removed from the situation (either because the owner decides to "get rid of him" or other people step in), would the owner just go out and get another dog? Is the dog tethered by a chain or a rope? They occasionally break. Jovi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSnappy Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 I think that you don't get to decide if the dog should be living there or not. I think theft is theft, and you'd be stealing someone's property, which is illegal. I don't agree with how many people I know train their dogs, but that doesn't make it okay for me to steal them. You've admitted the dog is not abused, has food, water and shelter ... what justification do you have for taking the dog? Where is the line drawn? What if someone decided that you weren't the kind of dog owner they thought everyone should be and stole YOUR dog? Moreover, stealing the dog and giving him to a rescue makes the rescue complicit with your illegal actions. Reputable rescues are not interested in being involved in dog theft; they have plenty of other things to worry about and deal with. Now you're going to steal a dog that has very real potential to bite men or other people he finds threatening and put him out there into the public where he could be a danger to the person who adopts him or the people around him? Yes, it sucks that the dog behaves the way he does now, but he's not safe, so why should someone else suffer the consequences of that? Lastly, if you're going to steal someone's property, possibly one of the stupidest things you can do is post about your intentions on a public discussion board, with links in your signature to your blog and your business. Stealing a dog someone treats in a way you don't like doesn't do anything for future dogs that someone may acquire. It changes nothing - you're opening yourself up to criminal liability, the individual who owned the dog learns nothing and the dog that replaces him will probably experience the same environment you don't like ... and you're talking about stealing a dangerous dog and making someone else responsible for it (and possibly putting them at risk). In what way does this sound like a good idea? The world is full of truly abused animals ... the way to change that is not by stealing them. The way to change it is by lobbying for stronger animal cruelty laws. RDM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaderBug Posted November 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 Moreover, stealing the dog and giving him to a rescue makes the rescue complicit with your illegal actions. Reputable rescues are not interested in being involved in dog theft; they have plenty of other things to worry about and deal with. Now you're going to steal a dog that has very real potential to bite men or other people he finds threatening and put him out there into the public where he could be a danger to the person who adopts him or the people around him? Yes, it sucks that the dog behaves the way he does now, but he's not safe, so why should someone else suffer the consequences of that? Lastly, if you're going to steal someone's property, possibly one of the stupidest things you can do is post about your intentions on a public discussion board, with links in your signature to your blog and your business. First and foremost, I have not said "I am doing this," nor probably will I. I would only consider helping if my friend decided to take drastic measures. My sole intention here was to find out what others might do in this situation. In hindsight I probably should not have had such a 'shock value' title, just trying to entice reading. My concern is for the well-being of the dog and that he doesn't end up with a chunk of lead in his skull, which I felt is where this road is headed for him. I don't think he is beyond helping. I think this goes a little bit beyond "I don't like how that person trains their dog." Also, I would not saddle some rescue with a dangerous dog. The intent would be to rehabilitate first and go from there, IF anything were to happen. Like I said, I am only looking for input. 'Stealing' would be a last resort, what other avenues might work?? Has anyone else had any luck getting through to the super stubborn?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 Why don't you either offer to buy him, for purchase price, or walk away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nancy Posted November 22, 2011 Report Share Posted November 22, 2011 Just a thought. Evidently, the daughter is your friend and knows how to handle border collies. And the dog in question reacts to me. How about if the daughter tells her parents that there have been some odd, not necessarily criminal but worrying - incidents in her neighborhood. She feels the need for some protection. And this dog would be perfect for her as he's fine except around large males, who seem to be the cause of the uneasiness in her area. She doesn't want to take the dog away from the family. But they have trained said dog to be just what she needs to feel safe. Stress that it's just rumors at present. Could be perfectly innocent. But it's her comfort level. And that the dog would be the perfect solution. Geeze, don't give an English major a topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecretBC Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 I refused to give a dog back once. I took in a 3 yr old border collie from my grandma's neighbor. They lived in an assisted living facility and the woman only had the dog because her daughter didn't want him anymore. She knew nothing about having a border collie and the dog was going nuts from zero activity. She relinquished him to me to find him a new home (her other option was taking him to the shelter where I work and I told her I didn't want this to happen to him because I didn't want him to fail the eval). I think I had him for about a month when I got the call that she wanted him back. She "missed him" and said she made the wrong decision. She was lonely. FYI, she was also bi-polar. I asked her what had changed in her life that would make it better for the dog. Would she be able to provide him with the exercise & stimulation that he needed? And he would be even worse now that he'd become accustomed to all that activity in my house. She fought me for a week -- when she finally conceded I ran over there and got her to sign a relinquishment form (I should have done this first!!) in case she tried to pull this stunt again. She did inquire about him again, but I'd transferred him to another friend who's rescue had more resources than myself and he found a home in less than a month. In your case, I believe the most you can do is offer your help. That's how my case started -- I said I was there to help if she needed it -- I think I got the phone call two weeks later that she needed him to go. If they know you are willing/able to take the dog, they might think on it for a bit and let him go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeltaBluez Tess Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 I feel badly for the dog and it tugs at my heart but theft is theft, no matter what the cause....the road to hell is paved with good intentions. I would offer to buy the dog. I am sure there is a price he will sell the dog for or maybe trade. That way the dog is then legally obtained. Jail time, a criminal records, , a tarnish of the rescue, etc is a huge price to pay when there probably is a way to obtain the dog legally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geonni banner Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 I think that asking to buy the dog is a good idea. And while I would not let the mere fact of illegality stop me from ending the suffering of an animal, it sounds to me as if this dog is in a sort of gray area as per abuse. Yes, he has been badly handled, and could be a lot happier. His future does not look rosy - from what you have related - but neither does it look hopeless. If you can buy the dog, well and good for him, but as has been pointed out, it does nothing for his successor, should there be one. I have removed two dogs from situations of imminent peril. One required major veterinary care for a leg broken in 3 places, an wrenched shoulder and many cigarette burns. Fortunately for me, the veterinarian involved, after hearing my story, fostered the dog in his clinic and placed it in a good home. The other was saved from harm - only just, and I placed him myself. (He was inherited - the family never really wanted him, and his disappearance was welcomed by them.) But this situation is different. It sounds to me like his owner is merely ignorant, rather that outright vicious. Perhaps he can be reached. Perhaps not. One thing to remember is that when a dog is removed from an abusive situation by someone other than a policeman or an Animal Control officer, there is no way to proceed against the owner for cruelty. Further, if you are caught with the dog, it will be seen as stolen property and may or may not be returned to the owner or impounded. If there is a history of biting, it may be destroyed, depending on the laws of the area where it was taken. In any case, if you are still considering the possibility of helping to remove the dog for its present situation, please consider the ramifications for all concerned. As for turning him over to a rescue, as long as there is full disclosure about the dog's propensity to bite, I think that the rescue personnel are well able to decide whether his problem is too risky for them to deal with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arf2184 Posted November 23, 2011 Report Share Posted November 23, 2011 You should not be the one to take the dog. Of course the best thing here is to try to educate the owners. Barring that...if it was my father (not that he'd do such a thing) I would just take the dog one day when he wasn't around. Not saying your friend should, but that's what I would do. Its not likely dad would turn me in if even he was a mean guy. Either that or just go over to the house everyday to visit the dog. Any work will be slow going with the dog getting mixed signals from 'dad' but progress might show dad he's wrong and maybe he'll come around a bit. Its worth a shot anyhow and the extra positive attention will benefit the dog in any case. I've 'borrowed' other peoples animals before to bathe them, walk them, remove porcupine quills, and provide some care that they weren't getting (sometimes just a warm place to sleep on a cold night), but never stolen. Most of these animals were in my yard or otherwise not contained and I just brought them home and did what needed done before returning them to their ignorant owners (neighbors). I've also taught neighbors'/relatives' dogs a few basics (sit, down, off). It doesn't take long and it gives the dog and idea what the dumb owner wants. I don't know how many relatives have told me how their stupid dog wouldn't learn anything only to prove them wrong 5-10 minutes later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nansee Posted November 24, 2011 Report Share Posted November 24, 2011 While the intentions are good, stealing a dog is not ok. Get the authorities involved so these people can not ever own a dog again (or may be less likely to wind up with another dog). Many years ago in a fit of insanity I considered doing the same thing when my ex-mother in law had 11+ dogs and horrible living conditions. Instead we got involved and helped find dogs homes and took several to the pound (wolf hybrid x Chow mixes). It was a horrible situation. Sometimes I still wish we'd gotten Animal Control involved, even though it would have likely wound up with criminal charges. Recently a neighbor of mine decided to "liberate" Leila because she got locked outside and barked for a couple of hours. I was floored at the audacity of their intentions and filed a police report. Do what you can without stealing the dog, or encouraging someone else to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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