Reactive and aggressive new dog

[Jo&Tex]

In September I took on another dog from my rescue. I knew she had issues and a history of biting.

Here's the background story...Boots came into rescue as a 6 year old, spayed female after her owner died. Pretty, average sized dog, although she weighed 80+ pounds and had spent the last 3 years locked away in a room and was very under socialized as a result. She was fostered until she slimmed down. She responded well to management and was adopted out twice. Each time, she was given opportunity to bite and did so.

The rescue decided that she was unadoptable but still had great potential in a home that understood her needs. I was asked to take her on. We all felt that a farm environment might be less stressful for her than being in the city. She had the usual noise phobias and food aggressions but they werent terrible. She just needed some strong structure and leadership. She is great with other dogs. When Blind Tex bumps into her, she would just turn her head and move away.

 

Over the last 2 months, she has bloomed and seemed happy and relaxed. She was nervous at first but she dicovered the joy of bringing in the sheep at night. She was turning into a keen sheepdog who was firm but gentle with the stock. The only thing she was asked to do was walk the sheep up the field and into the barn each night. Boots was beginning to play and chase a ball and her recall was improving. She wore a long leash at all times and was asked to sit and lay down on walks. To deal with her food aggression she was fed alone on the porch and had to wait and be calm before I'd hand over her dish.

 

Some weird things were happening too. Shortly, after she arrived, she moved into an empty closet upstairs and stayed in there for about 2 weeks. We left her alone, didnt push her and eventually she moved back downstairs. She was supposed to be afraid of the dark but we never had any issues with asking her to go out late at night. She did show me her TEETH a few times in the first few weeks when she was asked to do something but with a leash always on, she learned that she really had no choice. She may have been the boss at her old house, but she wasnt here. She also took her blanket into a cupboard one night and muttered and growled and shook the blanket. We ignored her and she eventually let it alone and came out.

 

In the last week or so, she became reactive at the phone. She'd lunge at me if I walked towrd the phone. If I let the machine pick up, she grab a blanket or something and shook it and growl. Then she started giving me a hard eye if I tried to make a phone call. She'd pace and be restless and we'd distract and remove her from the room.

 

Looking back, I can see that I was giving her too much freedom and not shutting down her reactiveness fast enough.

 

Last Saturday night, I got out of bed at 1:30am to check on another dog who was restless in the room. I sleep on the ground floor. Boots was in the next room on her blanket. I put on a light and I could see and hear her worrying her blanket. I walked to the kitchen and she ran thru the dining room, thru the laundry room and down the length of the kitchen. She got to me at the dogroom doorway and sank her teeth deeply into my lower leg. She tried to shake and tore a good sized chunk out of my leg. I screamed and hit her with the door babygate. She let go but cornered me with a mouthful of TEETH until help arrived. She fled under the kitchen table and muttered. She was fine in the morning, waggy and wanting cuddles.

 

Given her bite history, we are considering euthing her. The bite was severe and unprovoked. Her daily routine and exercise levels were normal.

I'd welcome any suggestions and ideas that might help Boots and help me figure out what to do next.

[Smalahundur]

 

 

Given her bite history, we are considering euthing her. The bite was severe and unprovoked. Her daily routine and exercise levels were normal.

I'd welcome any suggestions and ideas that might help Boots and help me figure out what to do next.

Nothing else than that. Put her down.

Incredible that this dog was adopted out out after two previous attempts ending in a bite incident. Three is definitely out I would say.

[mbc1963]

I'm so very sorry. I'm sure you've come to love the dog - it's nearly impossible not to, when you are caretaker. I'm sorry you're in this place, and sorry the dog did you such severe damage.

 

I believe euthanizing her is the right choice. Sorry, but right.

 

My dog is a fearful and reactive boy. I've always known that if he bit, he'd be put down.

 

My sympathies.

 

Mary

[Sue R]

As much as you have done for her, I wonder if there isn't simply something "wrong" that can't be dealt with. It sounds like her levels of reactivity and unprovoked responses are escalating and becoming more unpredictable.

 

I would think that if you could bring yourself to euthanize her, no one could complain or accuse you of not giving her much more than a good chance. I'm so sorry you are experiencing this, and I hope your leg can heal quickly and uneventfully.

[Tommy Coyote]

That sounds like it may be a brain problem. A brain tumor or lesion or something. That reacting to the phone like that and worrying the blanket. I wonder if she could have a really bad headache and what you are seeing is her reaction to the pain.

 

I don't think I'd mess with that.

[Pam Wolf]

I've dealt with a lot of aggression problems over the years and what you describes sounds out of the your league. I agree with Tommy that there may be brain issues going on. There could be help via drugs and behavioural counseling but that would be big $$ and LOTS of time and effort and quite likely more bites.

 

There could be physical issues going on too.

 

This is a dog that has learned that biting gets her what she wants and that is a dangerous dog and very few people have the know how to deal with such a dog.

[bc friend]

IMO, given the history you've described, the kindest thing you may be able to do for Boots is to euth her. It is always difficult for us to euth a dog over a behavior issue but this truly sounds as though she has a mental illness of some type (maybe physical, maybe caused by her isolation before coming into rescue). Given the work you've already done with her and the unprovoked attack, this is a dog you will likely never be able to trust. Although she's been fine w/other dogs so far, you can't guess whether something will distress her and she will seriously injure one of the other dogs. Sometimes in rescue, we just get there too late to have the happy endings we want for all of our dogs.

[Liz P]

I personally would not keep a dog like that. She is just way too dangerous. According to the most knowledgable behaviorists, you can't rehand a dog that performs a level 4 bite. Even if I found a medical cause, I would feel unsafe with her in my house because she lacks bite inhibition. Don't feel guilty about it. You can't save them all and she has had plenty of "second chances."

 

http://www.apdt.com/veterinary/assets/pdf/Ian%20Dunbar%20Dog%20Bite%20Scale.pdf

[urge to herd]

I'm sorry to say this, because it's a terribly painful and difficult decision to make, but I agree with the euthanasia vote.

 

The thing I think of most in situations like this is that the poor dog can not be living a good emotional/mental life, being taken over by whatever it is and being so angry/afraid/out of her mind.

 

Please accept my sympathies on this hard, hard decision to make.

 

Ruth

[MrSnappy]

This dog should have been euthanized after the first bite. She's had way too many chances to practice this bad behaviour, and undoubtedly she was locked away in a room because she was a biter. Tragic it is, but she's a very dangerous dog. I wouldn't take the risk, and she definitely should not be placed!

 

So sorry this happened to you, but PTS is a kindness for everyone, including her.

 

RDM

[MyTDogs]

I do not feel comfortable telling you to have Boots PTS since I have never seen her or her aggression in person. However, what you describe is frightening & I am certain that I would not want to work with a dog like this. There are lots of others without this baggage that I'd feel like I could save if I wasn't working on her.

 

That said, if you want to save this dog then I would recommend a skilled professional trainer who has a track record rehabbing aggression cases. Likely the trainer will use an e.collar so it is important to check references to be sure you have a real professional.

 

Until you make a decision I'd advise acclimating her to a basket/greyhound muzzle ASAP so that you & your family (canine & human) can be safe when she is out & most definitely a peace & quiet routine- out for potty & into a crate or x-pen where there is limited excitement/interaction until a decision is made.

 

ETA: You should have a full check up before attempting any sort of training with her to be sure there isn't a medical issue.

 

Good luck & thank you for trying with her,

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

I’m surprised so many are willing to condemn a dog they’ve never seen on a basis of a report from someone they’ve never met.

 

I’m not sentimental. There are too many unloved, untrained, sorrowful. potentially wonderful Border Collies to waste a rescuer’s precious time/attention/skills on a hopeless case. I’ve seen Border Collies so desperately screwed up I thought they should be put down.

 

But: too often behaviorists and “positive” trainers have this unseemly willingness to kill dogs their methods cannot train.

 

Tony Ancheta http://www.koehlerdogtraining.com/ makes his living rehabilitating dangerous dogs. He jokes that most of his customers are referred by animal control, Tony’s been training dogs since he was a teenager and offers a moneyback guarantee which he’s never had to honor. He’s trained or helped train tens of thousands of dogs and, one on one, hundreds of dangerous dogs. I asked him how many times he’d failed. “Twice.” He said. He added he’d had the dogs autopsied and both had brain anomalies.

 

Roger Hild trains in Southern Ontario. http://www.tsurodogtraining.com/. He’s good. I suggest a consultation.

 

I speak as the owner of a bitch who bit two people (neither of them civilians) before I got her. She has bit me and would bite me again if I ignored her warnings. Fortunately for her, and me, she’s a top notch sheepdog and worth my time.

 

Donald McCaig

[juliepoudrier]

My 2 cents: Clearly Boots has an issue, whether it's physical or mental. You're her fourth home, and she's bitten people in at least three of them. If you don't think that you can do the work (hand-in-hand with a behaviorist) or afford the medical exams to rule out organic causes, and once those are ruled out, the cost of a veterinary behaviorist, then you need to make the decision that keeps you, your friends and family, and your other animals safe.

 

I *am* willing to say that euthanasia isn't a wrong choice. I own a biter. Until recently the only person he had bitten seriously was me and I have made the choice to deal with him for the 11+ years he's been in my care (he'll be 13 next month), although he's gotten a bit worse as he's aged. The recent bite to someone else was when she reached into his crate, thinking he was Kat (while doing me a favor as I was setting sheep at a trial and had asked this friend to please let Kat out for a walk as she can't hold it for the 10+ hour days that are part of the set out job). I know he's a LIABILITY. Fortunately the person he bit is a friend of mine and realized that she had not paid attention to which crate I had told her Kat was in. But if had bit her as badly as he bit me a couple of years ago, I could have lost everything had she chosen to sue. Even though I can manage him (the bad bite I got was my fault; I was inattentive and did something that I knew could trigger a bite), I have to recognize that keeping him is a RISK. And at least he is predictable about situations that will trigger a bite. I have written into my dog directive that if something happens to me, he is to be euthanized. I know this is the best and safest choice for him and anyone who might come into contact with him.

 

So when weighing the pros and cons of continuing to work with Boots, I think you also need to consider how often *others* might come into contact with her and whether you're willing to accept the risk of someone suing you over a bite, even if you're willing to accept the risk of possibly being bitten yourself, again.

 

ETA: I also understand Donald's point of view, but I think anyone who keeps a known biter really needs to consider that not everyone is as understanding of such dogs as most of us might be. When I got the phone call that Farleigh had bitten my friend, I was horrified, not only because of the actual bite, but also because it really brought home to me how vulnerable I make myself financially by keeping such a dog, especially in situations where others could come into contact with him and be bitten. It doesn't sound like we're talking about a dog with any sort of bite inhibition--if Jo's report is accuarate, and we have no reason to doubt it, Boots took a *chunk* out her her leg. That's pretty serious.

 

J.

[Liz P]

Donald, the difference is that your dog and most other fear biters give clear signals that can be used to avoid a bite incident. This dog did not give a clear signal; she just followed a human across the house and attacked. She wasn't cornered, restrained or being directly threatened.

 

It is my personal opinion that I would not work with a dog like that. I've worked with fear aggressive dogs, including known biters. However, they only bit when threatened AND people ignored their warnings. Some were fixed and never considered biting again. One I still own, and he gives very clear signals, tries very hard to avoid biting even when those signals are ignored, and when he does bite he doesn't even leave a mark.

 

I have a foster dog coming in a few weeks with a history of fear aggression. I will spend some time evaluating and training him, but he will only be placed in a new home if I think he is safe.

[urge to herd]

No, I've not met Jo in person. I have read her posts over the last 6 years, and believe her to be an above-average border collie owner. I also don't believe that she would even think of euthanizing a dog for anything other than the most serious reasons.

 

Specifically, I believe she wrote very clearly of the last attack - Boots came after her, had to go through 2 rooms, and bit her severely, and would have continued to bite if she could have.

 

In her shoes, I'd do myself the favor of taking Boots to a very good trainer/behaviorist, just so I knew I had done everything possible. And I'd know what the recommendation would be.

 

Ruth

[KrisK]

I do know Jo personally and have always been amazed by her ability to manage dogs with issues - having a blind dog and a deaf dog requires different ways of adapting. I know for a fact she is struggling with making the right decision for Boots. She will not take it lightly, if the decision is to euthanize and I know she will have done everything in her power before that decision is made.

She knows that it's not possible to save all dogs..but it doesn't make it any easier.

[Donald McCaig]

Dear Doggers,

 

Mis Liz wrote:

 

"Donald, the difference is that your dog and most other fear biters give clear signals that can be used to avoid a bite incident. This dog did not give a clear signal; she just followed a human across the house and attacked."

 

Sorry but Ms. Liz has illustrated my point about making long distance prescriptions for a dog/owner we've never seen. Ms Liz simply assumed my dog is a fear biter. She's not. Yes, Fly gives a clear warning which a civilian might or might not read correctly but hers is not a fear bite.

 

In the case under discussion: What did rending and tearing the blanket mean? Why and toward what was the owner heading? Is the owner capable of interpreting the dog's behavior?

 

I don't know what happened here nor does anyone who has suggested this dog be killed.

 

Perhaps it should be. .

 

But in the interest of fairness, a trainer with experience rehabilitating biting dogs should see it first.

 

Donald McCaig

[sixx]

Sorry to hear about this traumatic event.

 

This sounds like another thread from awhile back. The OP kept questioning whether or not to euthanize the dog and ended up keeping it alive for some time, with a lot of serious injuries to herself. It was very sad.

 

Whether or not to euthanize?? That's a tough one, but a dog who bites for no apparent reason...

 

The question really then is, are you willing to try to rehabilitate her and take on possible injuries? It sounds dangerous IMO. On the other hand, there are people out there willing to take on this risk. This would be, of course, with no guarantees of recovery.

 

Have you done a blood panel or talked to a vet to see if there is something wrong with her?

[juliepoudrier]

Dear Doggers,

 

Yes, Fly gives a clear warning which a civilian might or might not read correctly but hers is not a fear bite.

Donald,

My biggest concern would be--as I stated in my previous post--the liability of owning a biting dog. It's a risk I've chosen to take, and apparently so have you. But if either of our dogs ever bites the WRONG person we could be in some serious financial trouble (aside from the ethical aspects of putting other people at risk because we choose to own dogs who bite). I noticed that no fees were listed on the site you posted, but I have heard from reputable sources that board and train facilities are not exactly inexpensive. Is money a reason not to try *everything*? In some cases, I think it is.

 

J.

[Laura L]

Jo,

I'm sorry that your trying to help Boots has ended up with you being bitten. Not only is it physically painful but it can also hurt you mentally. It sounds like it was a very scary experience especially since you had to have help to get away. If Boots were my dog, I'd be euthanizing her. You gave her your best shot and it didn't work.

 

I did have a fear biter (which is different from you describe) who bit me several times before I figured out the signals. When he changed to biting an old dog who didn't see the signal, he was euthanized. I had him for 7 years by that time.

Laura

[juliepoudrier]

Not only is it physically painful but it can also hurt you mentally. It sounds like it was a very scary experience especially since you had to have help to get away.

This is an important point. Mentally, it will affect the way you interact with Boots in the future. And she of course can read your body language and know if you're fearful, which could make her even bolder in her behavior. It then becomes a vicious cycle.

 

J.

[Donald McCaig]

Julie wrote,

"My biggest concern would be--as I stated in my previous post--the liability of owning a biting dog."

(and)

 

" Is money a reason not to try *everything*? In some cases, I think it is."

 

There are good reasons to kill a dog. It's a murky and very personal decision. I expect the OP will make her decision based on the real situation she faces, not the advice of those (including me) who've never seen the dog,

 

I've owned sheepdogs I turned loose unsupervised in a rowdy kindergarden. I've owned sheepdogs that would have nailed a toddler. My wife was bit on the face by a beloved dog Anne didn't know was hurting. Dogs can bite. We humans can lose our temper, or be inattentive or carry a joke too far.

 

And if we're unlucky,we are liable.

 

Donald McCaig

[Jo&Tex]

Thank you everyone for your input. I've had so many people tell me to euth the dog but they are not the ones who have to hold her paw as it happens.

 

I didnt take Boots as an adoptee from rescue. We knew her history and we were willing to try, knowing that we were her last chance. We hoped that a quiet farm environment would help her adapt to her new life.

 

My partners family has been breeding Springer Spaniels since the 1920's. His mom is an obedience trainer, his sis in law is a groomer and the family has operated a boarding kennel for 40 years. My partner has taken many spaniels to their obedience titles and has seen Springer Rage in action. We agreed to take Boots and felt like we had the capability to give her a good life.

 

Since Saturday, Boots has been on a routine of alternating between crate, 3 good walks and time outside in one of my securely fenced goat runs (minus goats). She's frustrated and barking incessantly, which is just stimming her even more. Worse, she is challenging me by laying down and giving me a 'hard eye' whenever I ask her to go into her crate or the outside run. She will still do as she's told by my partner but clearly thinks I lack authority. I think she is extremely noise sensitive and we are in deer season so the gunshots nearby are also upsetting for her.

 

I talked to my vet ( who has an aussie kennel and does all breed herding with her dogs). I wondered if Boots has a health issue, possibly thyroid, from losing so much weight in less than a year. The vet doubted it since Boots lost the weight so easily. We discussed the dogs options (meds, behavioural, neurological issues etc)and she said her own choice would be to put the dog down.

 

I also have to consider that we live here, along with my brother in law and his wife and 2 teenagers, and also my Mother in law. I can keep the dog contained but her quality of life wont be very good.

Boots put some work into biting me. I get up often during the night with Tex and didnt do anything unusual. I did err in ignoring that she was shaking her blanket but she has done that many times and it never progressed. During the day, we redirect her from any leash or blanket shaking behaviour. It was 1:30 in the morning and I just wasnt alert.

 

Finally, I had a call from the Health Dept who tracks all reported dog bites. The bite left small chunks of my leg tissue on the floor and I needed medical attention. Three days later, the wound is still bleeding thru the dressings. I need to provide the Health Dept with proof of vacc, which I have. They cant insist, but their suggestion is that she is a dangerous dog and should be destroyed.

 

There really is no other answer than putting Boots down. We meant well and we tried but she is just too stimmy to ever be a safe companion animal. She can be very sweet, loving and happy and she is very pretty, but her inability to control herself in anger is more than I'm able to manage.

[Maralynn]

There is nothing I can really add to this but I'm so sorry that you're facing this situation and decision, Jo. It's not an easy one any way you look at it. ((((hugs)))) to you.

[MaryP]

Jo, Boots sounds very similar to a dog we had in rescue several years ago. I didn't feel safe in my own home with him lose and was cornered more than once and needed help to get out of the situation. Thus, if ever I was home alone, he was crated. We chose to put him down. He was not adoptable and we didn't have unlimited time, money, and other resources to rehab him, if even that were possible. I know that we made the right decision for everyone involved. But, yeah, until you are the one holding the paw, it's not such a simple decision to make. Though I don't know you personally, that behavior just sounds too similar to the behavior of the aggressive dog that we put down. And I've followed your posts over the years and believe you are a capable handler and have a good understanding of dog behavior. I believe you are making the right decision.