Root Beer Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 don't get defensive, I'm learning here.... I'm not defensive (Hahaha - which I know sounds totally defensive although it is simply a rebuttal!!!). Passionate, yes. Enthusiastic, yes. Adamant, yes. Opinionated, yes. Defensive, no. I can see how the tone of my post could be mis-read, though. Rest assured, no defensiveness was intended. My example of my own dogs being able to run with other handlers was offered in support of my position that choosing not to isolate a performance dog periodically does not, de facto, lead to a handler dependent dog that cannot run with any other handler. Not all dogs run with other handlers easily - that is true. Not all owners choose to let others handle their dogs. I do so because I find it fun to "trade dogs" with people that I trust for a run here and there. And it certainly was handy to be able to have my friend run Maddie on those occasions when she would not have been able to go and run otherwise. My comments on distance work were simply offered to state that distance work in Agility is a learned skill. A very handler dependent dog could be very good at distance work and a very independent dog could work very close to the handler. Isolation will not likely change a dog's running style. For that, training is needed. Anyway, this thread is helping me to understand the hurdles a bit better when a person that comes from a pet/sport background wants to come over to the stockdog side. I'd be surprised if there were not hurdles moving from one discipline into another. I'd be willing to wager that there would be quite a few unexpected hurdles going in the other direction, as well, especially if one wanted to move beyond basic introduction to a few jumps and tunnels. None of this is easy. (Stated matter of factly, not defensively ). Good handlers make it look easy, but cultivating a focused, consistent, driven, thinking, skilled, balanced, and solid Agility partner (or sport partner of any kind) takes a lot more dedication, work, study, practice, commitment, patience, and thought than it appears to on the surface. (Read enthusiasm in that statement! ) Add to that, learning good handling skills is a work in progress that takes a very long time and quite a lot of practice. Going back to the OP, the Control Unleashed program was created for dogs just like yours. I can't recommend it highly enough, but in order for you to see the benefits, it is necessary to work through the program one step at a time and really work the games to their best advantage (especially GMAB which is often overlooked, but is worth it's weight in gold when it comes to building focus). If I had to choose between CU and isolating the dog, I would choose CU any day of the week. I've used it, I have personally observed in my own dogs that it works, and I have been more than happy with the results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted November 1, 2011 Report Share Posted November 1, 2011 My example of my own dogs being able to run with other handlers was offered in support of my position that choosing not to isolate a performance dog periodically does not, de facto, lead to a handler dependent dog that cannot run with any other handler. Not all dogs run with other handlers easily - that is true. I believe that you have jumped to some conclusions that are not anywhere close to what I was thinking, which by in part may be my fault. I don't have time right now to continue, two wagon loads of corn stalk square bales just pulled in the driveway...yuck...stacking time.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted November 2, 2011 Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 Hi Debbie, Any conclusions that I drew were based on what you wrote in this post. Did you not mean what you said here at face value? Particularly the part that I have emphasized in bold (bold added by me for emphasis). Wow...now I understand why people are so surprised when they can take one of my dogs and just go do a job with them. Hadn't really thought about it, but if I approached things as you guys did I wouldn't be able to sell my dogs to a person that needed them and I wonder how effectively they would be able to handle distance work. I'm visuallizing a dog that is totally bound and dependent on me, which is counter productive to what I use them for and why I raise them. Of course, I have applied what you have written specifically to an Agility/performance context since the topic at hand is building focus in an Agility dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligande Posted November 2, 2011 Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 Geeeesh, and here I thought most BC love Agility. Do you really need to to all the letter training? I have one that thinks the game is stupid, he loves going to trials for the socializing but actually competing in the ring, waste of everyone's time and money. So we have quit, and I only do agility with my young guy who thinks playing with me is the best reward there is. I think it is worth trying to see if you can motivate a dog to play, there were many mistakes made in his early training which I have tried to work with but at a certain point I think it important to admit defeat and find a new hobby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scullywags Posted November 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 Debbie Meier and SecretBC have good advice - ID the problem and make agility fun, fun, fun with lots of rewards. It sounds great that he really wants to play with you. The disconnect appears to happen during agility training. My take on what you describe (and I could be way off since sometimes you have to SEE what is going on) is that you and the agility game are fun up to a certain point, but after that other things are more interesting. Now here comes the sensitive part - does he turn off because something else is really more interesting? or is it because, through your training, he may be somewhat uncertain that he is doing the right thing and shuts down? Thank you all for the responses yes he loves to play and i am sure its been my lack of knowledge that may be causing him to turn off long story but I have had a devil of a time finding a place to train so we have been doing alot of work at home and since hes my 1st BC (aussies were all i have had)he may very well be in need of some changes in my training I have Cu book and clean run will let you do video on demand so will try going back and reviewing the CU info take a break on the agility stuff for a bit. I do not feel i am forcing him to do this he runs to the equipment on his own and loves to be naughty and do obstacles on his own with this "look at me" expression on his face What I am seeing is like a kid that has a huge pile of toys plays with one then runs to the other and plays with it sort of thing so IMO i think its attention and me not being "fun" enough to hang with. Does it sound like I am undestanding what you all have offered me to try and work on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Good Shepherd Posted November 2, 2011 Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 Coming from a competetive obedience background I am just now beginning to understand a little how the stockpeople live with and train/work their dogs. It is very eye-opening for me. I finally have a glimpse of what "Let your dog be a dog" means.At least in my experience some sport people are very strict, demanding with their dogs. A friend (Yes friend) of mine has an ACD who has had all drive and natural talent trained out of him, he is dog agressive, but has titles in Obedience, carting, agility, herding, water dog (whtever that is). Last weekend they went tracking 4 hours (friday), did a 8 hour herding clinic Saturday and run 2 carting tracks Sunday. The the rest of October they did 3 day weekend Agility shows (every weekend). The dog looks like a robot! I have honestly never seen this dog "Just having Fun". Sad to say, I know a bunch of people just like that, including my former obedience trainer, but oh they have trophywalls in their livingrooms, the dogs live in their houses with them and are with their owners 7/24 So yes, I understand where Debbie is coming from, I believe a dog deserves some downtime on its own every so often, just like they need to be just "dogs" (i have pics of our 2 BC playing in huge mudpuddles and having a blast. My sportsfriend actually told me their dogs prefer to be "Clean" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted November 2, 2011 Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 At least in my experience some sport people are very strict, demanding with their dogs. Some are, some aren't. I honestly can't say I'm "strict" with my dogs. I have certain household rules and structures, but they spend the bulk of their lives simply being dogs. That said, yes, some sport people do make their dog's lives very regimented - as it sounds like your friend has done with the ACD. It's interesting that Debbie had brought up isolation. There is actually a protocol geared toward performance dogs that is largely made up of isolation. But I have to say that I actually know very few actual people who participate in dog sports that follow anything of the sort. I know exactly one person who followed that program one time with one dog. She doesn't do it anymore. Also interesting is that a major part of the CU program (what you referred to as alphabet training) is giving the dog ample opportunity to be a dog. Those who follow the program recognize that dogs need time to sniff, to explore, and do to all manner of "doggie things". So, there is definitely a movement in the sport world toward appreciating our performance dogs as dogs, giving them opportunities to just be dogs, and to approach Agility (and other sports) as a part of our dog's lives, not their entire lives. Of course that doesn't appeal to everyone, but it is out there and to many it makes refreshing good sense. I think it would be a mistake - and I am not saying that you are doing this - to paint all owners of performance dogs with the same brush simply because there are some who treat their dogs in a certain manner. All stockdog owners certainly do not treat their dogs in the exact same manner. For example, I know for a fact - because people here have said so - that some have their dogs live in kennels and others have their dogs live in the house. And all performance owners do not treat their dogs in the same way as other performance owners. And it is possible to enjoy dog sports and actually foster the dog's drive and natural talent, not destroy it or in some way impede it. It is possible to be too demanding, no matter what one chooses to do with his or her dog. It is just as possible to be fair in one's expectations. Many, many performance dog owners are fair in their expectations. I believe a dog deserves some downtime on its own every so often, just like they need to be just "dogs"(i have pics of our 2 BC playing in huge mudpuddles and having a blast. My sportsfriend actually told me their dogs prefer to be "Clean" I believe that, too. Very strongly. And while that does not include isolating my dogs in a kennel, they get a great deal of downtime on their own to just be dogs. I also have pictures of muddy dogs. And pictures of them playing on the surf at the shore, running in the woods, running in the yard, playing together, chilling out under shady trees, lounging on futons and beds, etc. etc. etc. I guess it's possible to get a sense that those who do performance do nothing but play tug and train all day long, but for most, sports is a portion of their lives with their dogs. While I do take time on a regular basis to train, it is actually a very small percentage of the totality of their lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted November 2, 2011 Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 I have Cu book and clean run will let you do video on demand so will try going back and reviewing the CU info take a break on the agility stuff for a bit. Are you on the yahoo group? If you have read the book, you can ask the author questions on the group. You might find some really good guidance there. And even if you don't want to post, there is gold in the archives of that list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted November 2, 2011 Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 It's kinda funny Kristine, I never used the term "isolation", my dogs are never isolated. Yes they are in kennel runs, but that is not the same as isolation, maybe you consider it to be isolation, but it is not, they still have the ability to interact with the others dogs, in some cases a pair are housed together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Good Shepherd Posted November 2, 2011 Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 It's kinda funny Kristine, I never used the term "isolation", my dogs are never isolated. Yes they are in kennel runs, but that is not the same as isolation, maybe you consider it to be isolation, but it is not, they still have the ability to interact with the others dogs, in some cases a pair are housed together. Hi Debbie:) I also have a Kennel Building with 4 indoor/putdoor runs. I think it really kinder for the dog to be in there when I am at work or training then being in a crate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scullywags Posted November 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 I see plenty of that strict training in the groups i travel they have dogs that are nothing but robots to perform a task now I want my dog to be sucessful as in doing things correctly #1 so he does not get hurt #2 because I think he is the bomb and want him to shine wherever he goes ! But the reality is i adore him i want to have fun with him and want to find things that we can play together and keep him happy In rural life on my little mini farm is not what I would like for him I would rather we have acres that would hold sheep and allow him the job that he was bred for each day but it is what it is and i will admit I am addicted to agility so he will have to humor me a little to earn his keep! I know a person with an ACD mix and the poor dog has no life in its face its dull and just goes thru the motions because the lady takes 4 training classes per week rally obedience and 2 different agility classes I am sure not wanting my dog to end up like that. His life needs to be fun with rules atleast IMO . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted November 2, 2011 Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 I should retract the statement "never isolated", they may be by themselves in a crate someplace or even chained someplace, everyone learns to accept being put where ever I place them. It's not a big deal, they just curl up and go to sleep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Good Shepherd Posted November 2, 2011 Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 I see plenty of that strict training in the groups i travel they have dogs that are nothing but robots to perform a task now I want my dog to be sucessful as in doing things correctly #1 so he does not get hurt #2 because I think he is the bomb and want him to shine wherever he goes ! But the reality is i adore him i want to have fun with him and want to find things that we can play together and keep him happy In rural life on my little mini farm is not what I would like for him I would rather we have acres that would hold sheep and allow him the job that he was bred for each day but it is what it is and i will admit I am addicted to agility so he will have to humor me a little to earn his keep! I know a person with an ACD mix and the poor dog has no life in its face its dull and just goes thru the motions because the lady takes 4 training classes per week rally obedience and 2 different agility classes I am sure not wanting my dog to end up like that. His life needs to be fun with rules atleast IMO . We must know the same person Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecretBC Posted November 2, 2011 Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 There is actually a protocol geared toward performance dogs that is largely made up of isolation. I'm just going to guess that you are speaking of Ruff Love (Susan Garrett) -- And let me just say, I don't think you have a full understanding of what the program entails or why those recommendations are made. The steps involved in Ruff Love are geared to create a focused dog who enjoys working with you -- because all reinforcement in life comes from you, the handler. Ruff Love is not forever, it is simply the foundation/building blocks of a working relationship. I will admit that the entire program was just way too much for me. It doesn't work with my lifestyle. But I took parts of it and employed it with Secret to try to improve our relationship. She was very independent and very into self-reinforcement when she was younger. She wouldn't play with me because she felt she had more fun playing with the other dogs or finding her own things to do. I didn't isolate her -- the majority of her life was still spent with my other dogs. I did separate them in the evenings during play/training time, and if she decided she didn't feel like working with me she got to go back in the crate until we tried again. I removed all free access to toys so that the only time she ever saw them was when interacting with me. This is how I built her toy drive. I hand fed many meals, mostly through trick training. Susan Garrett has explained her program many times -- And with Swagger (her latest puppy) she demonstrated that he does, indeed, get plenty of free time to be a puppy. She just makes sure to control his environment so that there is not opportunity for him to make poor decisions. I see much value in the program, personally. It's just very hard to implement when you have a multi-dog household. Getting back to the OP -- I want to reiterate what Jovi suggested. I don't know how much "obedience" you put into your agility work, but I'd take it right out for now. So many of my agility students seem to come from obedience backgrounds and would always insist on a formal sit/stay before starting ANY exercise. I tried to beat this out of them. Stays in agility are overused!! They are demotivating for the dog, especially green dogs who have no idea what they are doing. Just go straight from playing to doing obstacles, that way agility is just a continuation of play! Yes, there is a time to work on start line stays, but I would work them separately from the equipment until the dog's drive for agility is high enough to keep them engaged on the course. It sounds like the dog in the OP does enjoy agility -- He's just still got the baby brain and needs more time. Keep the pressure off, have fun and keep sessions short. It may be that this is a dog (like many) who simply can't function well in an hour long class environment. You may need to leave and take a walk or go outside to play fetch midway through and then go back to try again. Dogs get bored sitting around in group environments (I can't blame them). When you train at home keep the sessions short. I never work my dogs longer than 10 minutes, and most of that time is just playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted November 2, 2011 Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 The steps involved in Ruff Love are geared to create a focused dog who enjoys working with you -- because all reinforcement in life comes from you, the handler. Ruff Love is not forever, it is simply the foundation/building blocks of a working relationship. Actually, I do know that. And I much prefer the underlying philosophy of the CU program, which is quite different, but does actually share the same end goal (focus, self control, confidence, etc.) And yes, I know it is not forever. But if I can use environmental reinforcers (which I can) to create focus, enthusiasm, confidence, etc., I am certainly going to choose that over any use of restriction from things that I truly consider to be essential components of my dog's lives. I see much value in the program, personally. It's just very hard to implement when you have a multi-dog household. And it is definitely not something that is going to appeal to everyone. Especially in its fullest form. While I have certainly used the basic concept of "learn to earn", especially with Dean, who really needed that kind of approach early on, I have never really found the idea that the dog has to consider me to be the center of his or her universe works for me. Again, that's why I find so much of CU refreshing. I can forget about trying to be "interesting" or "fun" and work at building enthusiasm, confidence, and duration of focus. Personally, I find it to be quite liberating. And I love the results. So, no, I'm not generally a fan of Ruff Love. I am familiar with the program and the philosophy behind it, and - as a whole program - it is not something that I would personally choose to follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scullywags Posted November 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 Are you on the yahoo group? If you have read the book, you can ask the author questions on the group. You might find some really good guidance there. And even if you don't want to post, there is gold in the archives of that list. Did not know there was one will check it out as well Thanks very much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scullywags Posted November 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 I have one that thinks the game is stupid, he loves going to trials for the socializing but actually competing in the ring, waste of everyone's time and money. So we have quit, and I only do agility with my young guy who thinks playing with me is the best reward there is. I think it is worth trying to see if you can motivate a dog to play, there were many mistakes made in his early training which I have tried to work with but at a certain point I think it important to admit defeat and find a new hobby. I have to laugh at that comment admit defeat! I also train my horse for competition and lord knows if i quit everytime something did nt work out I would never ride again I actually took up agilty while my horse was on a very long rehab. I take the training maybe a bit too serious but i find the journey of making a team of 2 very much reward win lose or draw I know i worked hard and that we did the best we could building a knowledge bank along the way. Thats why i tapped into this forum I love having resource of others experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted November 2, 2011 Report Share Posted November 2, 2011 Did not know there was one will check it out as well Thanks very much http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/CU_Dogs/ Enjoy!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mum24dog Posted November 5, 2011 Report Share Posted November 5, 2011 Wow...now I understand why people are so surprised when they can take one of my dogs and just go do a job with them. Hadn't really thought about it, but if I approached things as you guys did I wouldn't be able to sell my dogs to a person that needed them and I wonder how effectively they would be able to handle distance work. I'm visuallizing a dog that is totally bound and dependent on me, which is counter productive to what I use them for and why I raise them. Guess it just a different approach for different reasons. Thanks for the insight and answering my question. As one immersed in agility I actually agree with you. If our preference is to devote ourselves to our dogs 24/7 and have them with us as much as possible then the likelihood is that they will become dependent; dependency works in both directions and is often not healthy for man or beast. Having had dogs with pre-existing issues that would only work for me,I decided some time ago that if I ever got a pup is would have to get used to being left with other people and being able to cope on its own from day 1. I've often considered whether my most needy and stressed dog would have benefited from being kennelled. I don't want another needy dog. I would gain much more satisfaction from a dog that would work for anyone because that would mean I'd done a good job in bringing it up to be a confident and rounded individual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS Cressa Posted November 5, 2011 Report Share Posted November 5, 2011 As one immersed in agility I actually agree with you. If our preference is to devote ourselves to our dogs 24/7 and have them with us as much as possible then the likelihood is that they will become dependent; dependency works in both directions and is often not healthy for man or beast. Having had dogs with pre-existing issues that would only work for me,I decided some time ago that if I ever got a pup is would have to get used to being left with other people and being able to cope on its own from day 1. I've often considered whether my most needy and stressed dog would have benefited from being kennelled. I always consider that the dogs "work ethics". Wether they would run for another person or not. Not a training issue! Some dogs are work-a-holics other just want to run for their person. I always figure its a personality thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS Cressa Posted November 5, 2011 Report Share Posted November 5, 2011 To the OP.. Does your dog know leave it? I play games with my furkids, where I throw the toy then ask them to perform a task or a series of task then release them to the toy and yes they both are toy driven. (Not in context of agility training but it does carry over!) I second (or is it third?) that idea of hiding the toy on you then whipping it out and play during the course. My furkids love it when we run the course, we are working on, and over the last obstacle I throw the toy for them. Do you do any trick training? Does he quit on you when you trick train? Have you ever tried to trick train with toys? Do you have any classes with an instructor? or is there one in the area? Have you talked with them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scullywags Posted November 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2011 To the OP.. Does your dog know leave it? I play games with my furkids, where I throw the toy then ask them to perform a task or a series of task then release them to the toy and yes they both are toy driven. (Not in context of agility training but it does carry over!) I second (or is it third?) that idea of hiding the toy on you then whipping it out and play during the course. My furkids love it when we run the course, we are working on, and over the last obstacle I throw the toy for them. Do you do any trick training? Does he quit on you when you trick train? Have you ever tried to trick train with toys? Do you have any classes with an instructor? or is there one in the area? Have you talked with them? I have actually been working on sylvia tirkman tricks I had a friend do an informal obedience lesson with me saturday we worked on eye contact games and playing some games to work on come to heal she names everything games and its all play with rules we had a good time and he seemed to be able to do her version of GMAB we did some thing for 5-10 treats then let him go check out on his own it was not long til he got that playing with us was more fun than looking for things to do on his own i know the problem i am not doing enough to make me be the greatest thing every so once that is establish that he and i will be ok i think Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.