International Shed

[cgt]

Ok. It seems like there's a bunch of people here fresh from the Bluegrass, and they've got shedding on their mind. This makes me want to ask the following question that I've been thinking about recently for various reasons.

 

Background: The usual international shed is - what? - 20 sheep with 5 collars? This can be quite difficult with range sheep, witness the Nationals and some other recent trials as well, e.g., Soldier Hollow where nobody - or almost nobody - gets the job done. I was just at a nice trial (Big Willow) where range sheep were used (just about the nicest ones I've ever encountered - not that they didn't kick my butt) but the international shed was set up with only 3 collars (still take 5 sheep). This was a good bit easier - though plenty challenging - and let a number of people complete the course. It was fun to watch and things kept moving along nicely.

 

Question: There must be a number of ways to modify the international shed to adjust the level of difficulty. What are they and how would you rank them in difficulty?

 

For example, 3 collared sheep-take 5 is easier than take 5 collared sheep. Fine. One could have, say, 6 collars and take 5, which seems easier than the traditional shed, but is it easier or harder to do this than, say, take 5 with only 3 collared sheep? You get the idea.

 

I have a mathematical formula that models the difficulty of all possible combinations. (Yes, I AM a loser. You want to make something of it? If there are any other losers out there that want to know, the formula is based upon the hypergeometric probability distribution.) I wonder if the formula is even close to realistic. The whole thing is, of course, way more complicated than any single formula, but most people have a quick opinion on the difficulty level of various combinations, so they are doing some kind of mental computation, right?

 

Thanks for any advice.

 

charlie torre

[Pipedream Farm]

I have a mathematical formula that models the difficulty of all possible combinations.

 

There is one problem with the model you're talking about; it?s likely to assume that all within the sample have the same likelihood of being removed. Can you say that all sheep within a packet have the same likelihood of being removed?

 

Mark

[cgt]

Nah, of course not.

 

But, I still think there must be a viable formula that captures the sort of overall difficulty of the task. A formula that tells you simple stuff, e.g., that taking 5 collared sheep is harder than taking 5 sheep with only one collar, etc.

 

Anyway, never mind my silly formula... Just based on experience, how would you rank the difficulty of various combinations?

 

charlie

[workindogs]

Charlie's formula probably holds true under multiple repetitions....like say 1,000,000. Now there's hell for you.

 

Maybe that's how the handlers in the UK get so good at it.

[Denise Wall]

Charlie,

 

I don't know about any formulas but the hair sheep around here tend to be difficult to shed in the international shed. At Ben Ousley's DL finals for the top three combined scores the last few years, he's had seven collared in the twenty, and you took five collared of those. It helped although I don't think anybody got the shed last year.

[cgt]

Thanks - that's good to know.

 

Listen folks, any and all insights are bound to be an improvement on my inexperience.

 

Elizabeth is too modest to say it, probably, but I happen to know

that she (like Denise) recently had some notable success with the international shed. How was it?

 

charlie

[workindogs]

Thanks Charlie for the recognition.

 

Rye has been running very well in his first year of Open competition....Big Willow was his 3rd Double Lift Finals in the last 9 months as a 3-4 yr old (including Western States Regionals and Meeker). I'm really proud of his performance at Big Willow. We still need to perfect some of his advanced skills, specifically a blind lookback and directions....and listening to me!! However, I think he put in a stellar performance given his inexperience (and mine...I'm barely out of Novice myself).

 

Thanks,

[Denise Wall]

Way to go, Elizabeth! I remember being pleased and exited for you when you and Rye got into the the double lift at Meeker. Three double lift finals in nine months is some accomplishment for any handler and dog, especially one as young as Rye.

 

I for one would love any insight or descriptions you would care to share on your experiences.

 

Again, great job.

[Valhalla]

Originally posted by C Denise Wall:

At Ben Ousley's DL finals for the top three combined scores the last few years, he's had seven collared in the twenty, and you took five collared of those. It helped although I don't think anybody got the shed last year.

You're right Denise. David and Holly won it, but without a shed. Alasdair with Star and Nancy Schreeder with Link retired during the international shed because their dogs got too hot. The year before that Alasdair was the only one to get the shed with Bill. Steve Clendenin and I ran out of time attempting it. I do recall that amazing shed that Kent did there a few years ago! That was lucky!

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

All right, so, we'll be seeing Christine, Denise, and who else in the double lift at Dr. Ben's? Bring a nice hat to wear and practice up - Laura and I will be there taking notes!

 

So, the international shed is no different than a simple split or single? You make a division and the dog holds the "keepers"? I don't know why but I had this vague impression that that last time I watched the Bluegrass Ch. runs, I felt like a couple handlers were using a slightly different approach. But it was years ago and I didn't know what I was looking at, at the time. ARE there different ways to approach this task?

[juliepoudrier]

Becca,

I've only ever done an international shed at home, so take this for what it's worth. You can see in the pictures above that the handler and dog are acting as a gate, letting the uncollared sheep go and putting enough pressure at the gateway to turn the collared sheep back (in theory anyway). You could do a split or single that way, but generally, with fewer sheep you wouldn't be so much using a "gate" as you would actively be calling your dog through a hole to hold the sheep you want. In other words, in my mind, the single or split is usually much more active. If you were repeatedly calling your dog in on the big group to hold the one group containing the collared sheep, it seems to me that you would unsettle the remaining sheep and they would be less likely to ungroup so that you could allow the uncollared ones to leave through the gate. Does that make sense? I can picture the difference in my mind, but might not be explaining it quite right.

 

That said, I have set up sheds in the ring where I allowed the front sheep to drift off and then called my dog in on the back sheep I wanted to keep. In that sense, you can do a single or split like you would do an international shed.

 

And that's my completely nonexpert opinion.

 

J.

[Valhalla]

Originally posted by brookcove2:

All right, so, we'll be seeing Christine, Denise, and who else in the double lift at Dr. Ben's?

Becca, I sure hope you're correct on this prediction and I will try my hardest to be one of the three! I'd put my money on Alasdair if I were you.

 

Regarding the international shed, Julie has explained it well. In this type of shed, you don't want to call your dog all the way through the middle but rather just let sheep pass through the imaginary door between you and the dog. The sheep must feel that they can escape through that door, not be blocked for trying. The more times your dog blocks the sheep and turns them back, the more hesitant they will be the next time about leaving. Now, the collared sheep you do want to cut back and prevent from leaving. Look at Denise's photo from the Bluegrass thread on these boards. See how the sheep are stringing along and one by one leaving the "collared" group to join the "un-collared" group and therefore creating the draw for the other sheep to want to go to. Does this make any sense or am I just rambling? I'm no expert though, so maybe Sam, Denise or someone else can chime in?

[workindogs]

Denise,

 

My shed at Big Willow, ID was a gift from God. I believe the sheep were RambollietX yearlings....they were fabulous sheep, very fit and honest....they would sort out the weak and "wrong" dogs but were very nice to handle.

 

Rye had an excellent first outrun, but went a little off line on the first fetch. He had alot of trouble on the look back...he actually turned the right direction and looked the right direction but couldn't see them and didn't believe me...so he refused. I insisted several more times, and he finally took off with purpose in the right direction. I thought he was headed right for them and seemed to be coming around the hill correctly and then he disappeared over the top and didn't appear again. I called and called and after a long while he finally reappeared. I redirected him and he cast out and settled perfectly behind the group and brought them down right on line. However, I felt like he wasn't feeling right....it was like he was deflated after getting lost....his spark was definitely gone. Later on, setout told me that he was running correctly but when he crested the ridge line he could see both the set out pens and his group. He apparently looked at both, and then cast out toward the pens. Does anyone know how to teach a dog not to go to the pens??? A friend asked if I had ever corrected him for not bringing all the sheep....yes, of course I have! Another suggested he is smart enough and will eventually figure out that the pens is not where you go for sheep. He has only done this a couple of times, so I don't consider it a huge problem....but it is troubling when it happens.

 

Rye had them very settled through the drive and they arrived in the ring relaxed and lined out. I was a little worried because he seemed so worn out after getting lost on the 2nd outrun.

 

In the shedding ring, we needed to shed 5 sheep of which 3 were marked and any 2 unmarked. When I settled my sheep in the ring, 2 marked were standing at the front end and the 3rd marked was in the middle. I started to see Rye get his spark back again....he loves close work. I positioned Rye to hold the front end while I walked around the group to get behind the single marked sheep...when she felt my pressure she jumped forward and joined the other two marked at the front of the group. I repositioned Rye to put pressure on several unmarked that were crowding forward on his side. They drew back easily. At that point, I was almost able to make the shed in a single cut as all the marked sheep were at the very end and everything was lined out pretty well. I decided not to be greedy (and I couldn't remember if a single cut was allowed) so I called Rye through on the front six, laid him down and told him to watch them while I walked into the faces of the unmarked group and walked them off. Rye still hates it when I leave him with his own group but I was proud that he seemed to have a much better understanding and held strong while I shooed the rest away. When I came back the unmarked sheep were still clustered at the back, so I repositioned Rye again, "opened the gate" and my last unmarked single walked off calm as you please. The whole thing was completed rather quickly which was a very very good thing because we had lost alot of time on the lookback. I started hurrying toward the pen and the 5 sheep began fighting and splitting to get back to their group. Rye was super about covering and pushing forward, he was like a cutting horse on 5 singles....I realized how dangerous the situation was so I left the pen (I hadn't picked up the rope yet) and went to help him....if they had broken away my run would have been over (no time and lost points). As soon as I got to Rye's side, the sheep settled and walked on. We timed out with the sheep in the mouth of the pen.

 

Afterward, I was informed that I had substantial points because I "took them off the front".....it is my understanding that under ISDS rules there is no "front" or "back" in the intl shed and that my shed was a good one....near perfect in fact.

 

So it goes in dog trialing.....win some, lose some.

[Valhalla]

Elizabeth, what a great re-cap. Thanks for sharing!

[ccnnc]

The best Int. shed I've ever seen was also one of the first I saw and I didn't appreciate it until it was over.

 

It was Kathy Knox at the Finals in Lexington, KY a BUNCH of years ago (wish we'd get the Finals back there someday!). I'd watched several handlers ahead of her, all rather actively involved in the sorting. When Kathy got to the shed things just didn't seem to be going like the others. From the distance it looked like she was just kinda standing there, not getting much done.

 

Then, like magic, she flanked her dog a bit and all but something like two of the uncollared sheep were split off in one move. Then it was just a slight "nudge" or two to get the other two off.

 

Amazing!

 

CCnNC

[DeltaBluez Tess]

I took a shedding clinic from Scott Glen. What an eye opener!! Talk about a smooth shedder.

 

He took my Tess and had a great shed and then I tried it.....the word "helpless" was in my shed...but thank goodness that Scott has taught Tess to shed. He walked through each step and if done correctly, the shed is much easier.

 

I highly recommend a shedding clinic.....the one we went to worked quite a bit on the Intl shed as a bunch of us were going to the Finals.

 

 

I love watching the Intl sheds...they are truly wonderful and someday I hope to be in the ring with 20 sheep and one great dog!!

 

Diane Pagel

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I'd love to go to a clinic with Scott Glen, shedding or no. Maybe we can get him down this way sometime next year. I really liked his style of handling.

 

Thanks for the shedding descriptions - I've always been taught the "gate" method, too - don't blame my inability to do this on my teachers! I'm learning a bit again with Don - I just couldn't do it with Rick and we finally found out it was Rick, not me.

 

I've got more questions but the kids are down for their naps and it's time to work puppers!

[workindogs]

At Meeker, I entered the shedding ring with 15 minutes still on the clock. I angled and maneuvered but could not make the first cut to save my life. Fifteen minutes is an eternity when you can't make any progress in the shedding ring. It was hot and my run was the 10th and last. Rye was really hot and tired. At 3 minutes remaining, I started a mantra...."please don't let me time out without my first cut". Moments later, I thought I might have my first cut but wasn't sure because the sheep had heavy wool and their heads down. I tentatively squeezed the group off but didn't move them very far off. I left Rye with his group and frantically checked for bands on the group I was moving off.....hallelujah! all were unmarked and there were 9 of them. I timed out quite content after that. I tell you, hell is 15 really hot minutes at Meeker in the intl shedding ring unable to complete, much less start, the shed.

 

I took Alastair's shedding clinic when Geri Byrne had over last summer. It was very very good and helped me tremendously.

[L and M Ranch]

Elizabeth,

I just love to read your re-cap's of trials. You are so descriptive. It makes me feel like I'm right there! I'm so trial deprived right now too that I have to live vicariously through others!

Laura

[Denise Wall]

Elizabeth,

 

Thanks for the great descriptions. I know there are trials out west but nobody ever talks about them or sends results in anywhere. I wish you guys would jump in more. I'd love to hear more about the types of sheep there and how they work. Aside from the BG and Wilson's, we have mostly hair sheep trials which I'm not fond of.

[Eileen Stein]

There's an interesting article by Bev Lambert on the international shed and how to train for it at http://www.littlehats.net/lambert04.html

[Sue R]

This thread is FABULOUS reading for those of us who live vicariously through others' descriptions of wonderful trialling moments.