Training session gone bad

[Bounce]

I'm pretty upset about this.

Just now, I asked Bounce to bring the sheep down the hill and into the pen. One of the 5month old ewes (I have 4 sheep) broke away and went another direction fast. Boumce ran her down, grabbed her muzzle and hurled her to the ground. He held her down while she twisted and let go when I told him "off".

This lamb is ripped up pretty good. Blood everywhere. I used Bounce to separate her off and corner her so I could get her up to the house. The gashes are deep but not into her nasal cavity or mouth. I got the blood to clot but I have no means to stitch her or even if I should. She drank and ate some grain, I'll put her back in a clean pen with her buddies later.

This was a "in for the Kill" move on Bounces part. I don't know enough to say how much is enough or too much, but this is not what I want to do with my sheep.

I don't know where to go from here. I didn't correct the dog and did continue to use him to catch the lamb. Maybe I should get some much larger sheep to offset my Bully Dog. Any words of advice would be welcome.

[(Jess)]

I don't know a THING about herding, so I will not be of much help, but I can imagine how disappointed you are! What you said about getting a larger sheep may be a good idea (I would think). Maybe it would be enough to put him back in his place? Good luck!

[juliepoudrier]

Bounce,

I'm sure that others with more experience than I will eventually answer, but in the meantime, take heart. Your dog is likely not a killer. He was doing what is natural, trying to head a runaway to stop it. The fact that he let go when you asked him to is a good thing. He may have been a little overzealous/overexcited, but he's young and inexperienced and stuff like that sometimes happens, especially if the young dog feels like he's losing control and is trying to stop a runaway at all costs. Be careful about over correcting him for trying to stop runaway sheep because the last thing you want is to end up with a dog who won't cover stock that's breaking away.

 

When he'a trying to catch a runaway and it looks like things might get dicey, you can always give him a get off or AAAHHHTT! correction to make him widen out a bit and think about what he's doing and not be as quick to grab. Alternatively, you can lie him down and then once the ewe has slowed a bit send him on an actual outrun to gather her back or simply bring him back to you and send him after the rest of the flock and bring the flock to the single (singles can be quite freaky, which is why the old saw "take the many to the one").

 

Anyway, using larger, meaner sheep to try to "teach the dog a lesson" very likely would backfire on you, as the more Bounce feels out of control the more out of control his behavior might become. Personally, I think you were wise to continue to use him to catch that lamb--thereby reinforcing some positive, proper work at the end.

 

As for your ewe lamb, sheep heal suprisingly well. If you have cleaned the wounds and given her penicillin, then really all you have to do is keep an eye on things, keep it clean and make sure flies and such aren't bothering her. She will be happiest if she can be with her flock, or if you feel better isolating her, then at least give her a friend of two--she'll heal faster if she's happy, and she'll be happier if she's with her sheepy friends.

 

All of this is just my opinion of course, and I am not an expert shepherd or dog trainer, so you can take my advice for what it's worth.

 

J.

[tucknjill]

Is there anyone local to you that can help you with lessons or advice? It is really very hard to help someone over the internet. So much depends on the dog and sheep and you just cant reliably put that into words. Sorry you had a bad day.

[Miztiki]

I can't help, but sorry to hear about your sheep. I hope she'll be ok.

 

I read these working threads even though I don't have a clue what people are talking about most of the time. Maybe someday I will. Anyway, let us know if Bounce makes any progress in this area.

[Joe Anne]

Miztiki, I agree with you, I don't have much of a clue either, what everyone is talking about, but I love reading about working the dogs and sheep. I am really anxious for Phoenix to take herding classes and I know I want sheep, but I think that probably won't happen.

Since he is only 7 mos. old, it seems like most of everything I want to do with him, he is too young. Since he can't do any jumping yet, I still have almost a year before I can get started in serious agility or flyball. That seems like forever to me (although, I don't want to wish my puppy's life to go to fast, either). He is so smart, and needs to be active in something right now, I hate the thought of waiting for another ll months!!!

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I'm in the same boat as you Jo Anne, but my pup is younger than yours! It's so hard to wait.

 

I do know, though, that as was said on an earlier thread, training a young dog means sometimes you end up doing the opposite of what you want to achieve ultimately - good stock handling. At the very least, the sheep run a lot until your dog figures out how to keep his distance and let up the pressure to let the sheep walk/jog at a nice pace. At worst, injuries can happen.

 

I spent a lot of time yelling at the first dog I ever trained, being in a situation similiar to yours, Bounce. Ben had to learn "on the job" and I really didn't know what I was doing. He and I got frustrated a lot. He ended up basically being afraid to "make contact" with the sheep - ie, not wanting to look at them or hold them.

 

It's true that sheep have amazing healing powers. That's not to say it was OK that Bounce rolled the lamb on the ground - ideally he would have snapped and fallen back to let her think and go in the correct direction - or actually REALLY ideally he would have flared way out and cut off her escape with eye/body language alone - but a young lamb being stupid can bring out the worst in even mature dogs.

 

Try really, really hard to find someone you trust to work with him. Honestly, a several hour drive would be worth it at the stage you're at. Not for regular lessons - I drive eight hours (but it's more like a ten hour trip with the kids) to clinics in the Washington, DC area, and it's always well worth it. I do that twice or three times a year.

 

If you start getting an idea of what you like and don't like in terms of training methods, and what it's sort of all supposed to look like, you can take lessons with someone like the title trialing person. Don't let that person train your dog per se, try to go with the idea that you're learning to train, yourself. I can name just off hand three title-trial-oriented folks in this area whom I readily would refer people to. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

[Bounce]

The lamb is doing fine this morning. We were already calling her Scarface from the three other times Bounce has chomped on her. She is the same size as the other lambs, its as if he does target her. Could it be he's applying pressure to her to make her bolt so he can bite her? The farrier was here this morning and commented on the poor things face. Made me feel about an inch high.

I'n at an impasse. I could just move my little flock around with a pan of grain and forget the dog but I have also seen how much help that dog really is.

I HAVE to find someone to help me or attend a clinic. There is a person involved in border collie rescue who I think does herding test evaluatuions on the rescues. I am trying to contact her today. She was invovled in the effort to rehome the animals from Tex's situation. I'm sure she'll remember Tex, he does make an impression on people. Anybody else in Ontario interesting in attending a clinic if I could get someone and something set up?

[Pipedream Farm]

Have you looked into the Ontario Border Collie Club or the Canadian Border Collie Association for finding help in your area?

 

Mark

[Bounce]

I am familiar with both those groups and I am planning to attend a trial in late June. Nothing is very local for me but I will have to travel if I'm serious about continuing with Bounce. Most of the trainers are located in sheep country on the Praries.

[Denise Wall]

Some good advice has already been given but I wanted to add one thing I think is important.

 

 

Just now, I asked Bounce to bring the sheep down the hill and into the pen. One of the 5month old ewes (I have 4 sheep) broke away and went another direction fast. Boumce ran her down, grabbed her muzzle and hurled her to the ground. He held her down while she twisted and let go when I told him "off".

I understand you may be upset at a sheep being hurt like that, and I would be too. However, if you get right down to the basics of what makes up a good stockdog, the extreme determination to stop stock from getting away, no matter what, is a very important attribute. It's something you cannot put in there if it's not there naturally. You may need to modify his application of this desire, but the fact that he, a relatively untrained and inexperienced dog, got to the front of a five month old breaking lamb and gripped it on the muzzle is to me a sign there's a good dog in there worth training. It's the type of situation that can cause an inexperienced dog to come unglued and just chase or grab from behind in desperation.

 

Lambs, even ones that age, are notorious for doubling back and breaking away under pressure. IOW wherever they're supposed to be going, they do the opposite. Now that you know this, try to read the pressure and help Bounce to not get into this position any more than he has to. It does happen that lambs break and they are stupid and panicked when they do it. I think Bounce was just doing the best that he knew how right now. I hate that your lamb got hurt, but frankly, I was impressed that he had what it takes to get to the front, grip her by the nose and stop her.

[Susan M. & Skipper, Annie and Ben]

If you have cleaned the wounds and given her penicillin, then really all you have to do is keep an eye on things, keep it clean and make sure flies and such aren't bothering her.

Julie, I?m learning about sheep and herding, and as a people nurse I?m wondering about how you?d medicate the injured sheep. Specifically, what type of penicillin would you give, a long acting or short acting and would you give it IM or SQ? Do you give a repeat dose? If an animal is scheduled for slaughter in a few weeks, would you treat it with an antibiotic or would that affect it?s ability to be sold for meat? Thanks!