going to the heads

[PennyT]

Well, I have a training matter that I have been wondering about that doesn't require seeing particular dogs work. It has to do with how people characterize and communicate about what dogs are doing when they work sheep.

 

A friend of mine comes over here to work her dogs. She has had border collies and sheep for most of her life but only in the last couple of years has gotten the chance to put the two together. She tends to observe what her dogs are doing in terms of whether the dogs go the heads of the sheep or not.

 

I almost never think about what the dogs are doing in that way. If I see a dog clap at the heads and not move forward, I think about stickiness or power problems or both but not as whether a dog wants to be at the heads of the sheep. I tend to just think about whether the dog is an effective place to do whatever we're working on.

 

Over the years, I have not noticed many people I have taken lessons from look at whether a dog wants to work the heads or be on the heads. The question doesn't come up except in terms of effective positioning.

 

In fact, I can only think of one person who did. Bob Carillo, the first person I ever had lessons from almost 20 years ago (oh, perish the thought, because I should be better at all this by now) did evaluate dogs starting out on sheep that way. He said that the first thing he looked for was whether the dog went for the head or heels. At least, I think he said that. I had absolutely no idea what he was talking about so my memory has an even higher chance than usual of being faulty.

 

Whether a dog heads or heels or ideally does both is important on cattle. It is also important on sheep. Being willing to grip a sheep's nose is good and walking straight on to the heads to turn sheep without having to either grip or back them up eternally is even better.

 

But when I am starting a dog I don't focus on whether a dog wants the heads. I tend not to think about it except in particular situations, for example, when a dog's confidence might need bolstering. Even then I see the matter as one of confidence, not as having to do with wanting or avoiding heads.

 

I am wondering how other people characterize what dogs are doing when started and thereafter.

 

Penny

[amc]

Hi Penny,

 

Well, I guess I do think a bit about whether the dog wants to go to the sheep's heads, but that may be because the last two dogs I've started have been 'control freaks' that don't want to let go of the pressure which is usually on the head. I'm fighting that battle hard with my nearly two-year-old who is so determined to retain control of the heads that he can only drive a few yards while retaining his composure. It doesn't help that he's a willful SOB who hates to stop working (read: won't stop on command). I work cattle sometimes too, but I want a 'head dog' there, so it's not that big a factor in my evaluation of my dogs' abilities on cattle.

 

But I do look early on whether the dog is too focused on control, or whether they will give up some of that and work with me instead of against me.

 

Bob Carrillo had a pretty bad accident with one of his mules a few months ago, but last I heard he was recuperating at home after a hospital stay.

 

See you at the Finals!

[PennyT]

It could be that whether a dog wants to control the heads is something lots of people train in terms of or use extensively as a way of looking at what is going on. Maybe because I don't do so, I haven't paid a lot of attention. I'm not sure the results are much different. However, if it's helpful to do so, I'm thinking of changing how I characterize in my own mind what young dogs are doing.

 

I'm sorry to hear about Bob's accident.

 

Finals: See you there, too. What with the price of diesel, I'm debating whether to take my husband's truck and the Casita or get a motel room.

 

Penny

[amc]

Here in the state of Jefferson diesel is 20 cents or so a gallon cheaper than gasoline. Across the border in southern Oregon it's about the same as regular (about $2.05/gal) How is it across the West/Midwest? We are planning to drag the Trillium with our Dodge diesel.

[Denise Wall]

I also pay attention to whether a dog starting out wants to be at the heads. Things I like to see right off or pretty soon are what I differentiate as "heading balance" and "herding balance."

 

Heading balance to me is when a dog knows where the place is in front of stock that will stop them no matter where they're heading. Some dogs know where this is, they just don't want to go there. I like them to know where it is and want to go there. (Sometimes it may not be practical for them to go to that exact place, so the next most effective place is also good.) If they want to go there a little too strongly, as in overreact and come on too harshly, maybe even tasting a little nose, I'm fine with that at first. If they know where it is and don't want to go there, I'll try to sort through the problem which is usually a confidence issue. If I determine they don't naturally know where to go to stop stock, I'm not too happy. IMHO, the ability to stop and control stock, rather than take stock somewhere they already want to go but faster, separates the border collie from many other herding breeds.

 

How tightly dogs see this exact place to stop stock may make a difference in how easy they are to train or how they turn out overall. In my experience, dogs that are extremely tight on that balance point can sometimes only want to stop stock. Once the stock is stopped, they want it to stay stopped. Some dogs seem to feel once the stock is stopped and under control, their job is over. They don't want the stock to move. The livelier strong headers may want mess things up a little so they can stop them again, which I feel is an easier dog to train than one that wants to stop all movement and hold -- end of story.

 

This is getting too long about the heading so I'll end by saying I really like seeing a dog want to get to the heads of stock and I especially like seeing a real spark in it to want get to the right place. I also look for one that wants stock to move some.

 

My definition of "herding balance" is when the dog incorporates me in the picture, going where ever it needs to go to bring me the stock in a pretty direct line. Good dogs can start out with both, or only one, but I haven't seen many that had good herding balance if they didn't have pretty good heading balance right off.

 

JMHO

 

Denise

[blackacre]

Hi Penny,

I too paid no attention to this at all, until I got one that would ONLY go work their heads. I couldn't keep him behind his sheep for love or money. He'd go out on an outrun, swing right past balance and keep going until he was back where he started. A function of having no eye at all I think.

So maybe the reason it never mattered to you was because your dogs have always been more or less right in this department.

I will mention another trainer that made me a lot more aware of exactly HOW a dog was working the heads: Kent K., working with a few dogs in the round pen. He als wrote a neat double article in one of the magazines a couple of years ago about dogs with different driving styles, those that work the heads vs. those that work the butts. Remember?

A.

[Denise Wall]

I have a 3/4 ton diesel suburban. The price of diesel around here was substantially lower than regular gas for a long time after prices shot up. Over the past few weeks diesel has gone up and has now passed regular gas prices.

 

I wish I were going to the finals. Mick's having trouble with his knee and it's just too far for me to go for only one Open dog. Hopefully, next year both dogs will be in shape to go. My husband says he'll drive me.

 

Have a great time all you guys who are going

 

Denise

[SoloRiver]

I didn't start thinking about dogs working the heads until recently (but of course, I didn't start thinking about any of this until recently, so take that for what it's worth). It helps me understand some of the stuff Solo does to think about things this way. He might be a good illustration because he has faults which are fairly obvious. He has a strong tendency to work the heads and to only pay attention to what the leaders are doing, and is very pressure-sensitive (the section in Virgil Holland's book where he describes pressure-sensitive dogs could have been written with Solo specifically in mind). I find that he overreacts to what the leaders are doing and that when he is on a big group of sheep (like ten or more) the stragglers find it really easy to "opt out" by just standing still and letting the leaders keep going on.

 

Of course, this is what he does when I'm handling him. When someone else handles him he looks more like a real dog, which may have to do with skillful handling, gaining confidence from the skilled handler, or both.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I would call my young bitch excessively obsessive about the heads. She also has a ton of eye though we've emphasized movement from the get go, so she isn't troubled with stickiness at present. I sent her back into the dark ages of crashing and refusing to cover when I started her driving before she was comfortable giving up control. But we couldn't advance any, it seemed, because the more we drilled her in the basics (wearing, small outruns), the sulkier she got.

 

I had her a different trainer this weekend than her breeder (thanks for setting that up, Melanie). We didn't do much different with her but in the different context (different sheep and work area, new guy), I was suddenly able to see that it's REALLY important with her to introduce new concepts WITHOUT increasing the handler pressure - in other words put her in a position where she can get used to the new thing - then pressure can be put on when she is confident that she's not losing control.

 

Specifically, we did what I'd call "power outruns". Starting as close to the sheep as possible, I'd send her, meet her at the top, then send her again, and repeat about half a dozen times. By the end of the series, she was confident enough to take a strong correction. We did the same thing for wearing - instead of long walks, I'd walk just a couple steps then turn, box the compass, then do it the other way.

 

Also, she was so frantic to get to the heads that she'd lose her mind on a flank - this weekend I learned how to "talk her through" so she didn't get crazy. Without pushing her out or trying in some other more mechanical way to square up her flanks, she did it herself - now that she was thinking.

 

Yeah, it's a pain. But she works so beautifully once she knows what she's doing - tons of power with a hair trigger response - I think she'll at least be a useful dog in about thirty years when she's finally trained.

[Smokjbc]

Hi,

 

I think what a dog wants to do at the heads is something I look at but not exclusively. I have had dogs like Denise described that felt the job was done when the stock is stopped. Rhett, now retired, will fearlessly charge into a cows face and take a very controlled, strong bite but will lie down and let them just sit there afterwards. She sometimes will stir them up but only if they are facing her, never if they are facing away. Since she was the first dog I trained semi-successfully (we don't discuss the actual first dog very much around here ), I don't know if knowing more now could have prevented that habit from developing or if it would have been a problem regardless.

 

The two dogs I am working with now are very different. Nellie has never been particularly strong on the head but does want to turn stock. She rarely goes for a nose on sheep but will walk straight up (and through sometimes- she is a bit hyper about shedding and will find any excuse to do it) if asked. On sheep she will hold balance but is very happy to flank off it as well and even happier to be pushing sheep as fast as they can go. I feel she is plenty strong enough balance/holding wise on sheep but the front end of a cow is not her strong point. She has grown much more confident with time (she's 4 1/2) and while she still won't grab a nose, she is getting bolder about confronting cattle and walking straight on and luckily has enough presence to pull it off most of the time. Jane is very even on sheep, not sticky but plenty of eye (far more than Nellie), very good balance and works her sheep well from a distance-which doesn't create alot of holding situations for herself. If I do ask her to hold sheep against the fence, she will grip noses to hold them there and is pretty anxious about doing it- will also tend to grip unnecessarily in that situation even though she rarely grips elsewhere. Cattle she's just getting into, and finding so far that she is a dog ,in that situation ,that knows where she should be but doesn't really want to be there (yet, she's just two). She will hit the heels but is at the fade-off stage at the nose. To be fair she's been on cows only a few times but would like to see a little more there. I guess my point is that while it has been a help in some situations to have a dog extremely strong to the head, I don't mind bringing along a dog thats a bit weaker there if there are no extremes to contend with and the basic ability is there. This is not to promote weaker dogs- on the contrary- they are all spayed for various reasons- mostly my lack of desire to breed anything LOL. But just to say I look more at the whole package instead of whether the dog has one or two outstanding qualities.

 

I know my Rhett dog was awesome to work at times but also extremely frustrating at others. I wouldn't want the same dog again, no matter how strong that heading ability, that was so convinced stock only needed to be stopped.

 

J. Green

Las Vegas, NV

[PennyT]

Thanks everyone for taking the time to tell me how you think about a dog working the heads.

 

Andrea, do you remember when those articles came out and which magazine they were in?

 

Penny

[borderbob]

amy,

 

diesel is about 20 cents a gallon cheaper in the midwest.drive safely

[blackacre]

Penny,

It must have been about four years ago since I was teaching Hobbes to drive at the time and having a hell of a hard time getting it through his head. So, there I am, reading the article, saying to myself, "Yes, YES, that's IT" as he described the type of dog that works the head rather than the butts. Then I turned the page: " . . . and in the next instalment I will describe how to deal with these types in training." ARGH!!!!

Anyway, must have been Working Border Collie because that's the one he usually writes for. If I have time, I'll look through some back issues for it. Might be fun to read it again.

A.

[amc]

Thanks, Borderbob. At least that news is encouraging!

[Deacon Dog]

A & anyone else interested, you can order a booklet containing copies of Kuykendall's Working Border Collie articles on his web site (link).

[blackacre]

Cool,

It's damned decent of Kent to provide me with the opportunity to pay twice for something I probably only half understood in the first place.

A.