100% recall - when achieved?

[Cody & Duchess]

There has been a lot of discussion about only letting dogs off leash when 100% recall is achieved or only in certain circumstances. Judging that you have achieved 100% perfection - how is that done? No one here ever wants to put their dog in danger. But can or should you always limit activities to those that you keep your dog 100% safe. Wouldn't this limit agility training ( sometimes injuries happen) or working your dogs on livestock? When out with a dog off lead that dog gets 100% of my attention. I feel it is my responsibility to read the dog's intentions - to redirect his mission. Each time I am working with the dog - I try for the best situation, stacking success in my favor - but I also think that each time the dog works well off leash that dog "matures".

 

So..... how can you determine that you have achieved %100 recall? Thanks

[geonni banner]

For me it would depend on the circumstances. In an environment like busy urban street, I would want to have an awful lot of confidence in my dog's recall. If I was on "the back 40" of my parents' grain fields, not so much. I'm not sure there is such a thing as a 100% recall. I once had a Doberman Pinscher with impeccable manners - push-button trained as some people called it. She never put a foot wrong. But once when I was standing on a residential corner talking to a friend with my Dobe in a sit-stay, she took off after a cat and chased it back and forth across the street four times before it ran up a tree and she returned. It was the only time she ever refused a recall. Fortunately, there were no cars in sight.

 

If the dog was of a fearful or skittish temperament I'd factor that in too. Every dog is different, and the only way I know to decide whether the dog should be allowed off lead is to decide a- how well does she respond to a recall historically, b- what kinds of trouble can she get into in a given environment, and c- how comfortable with the level of risk am I, compared to the amount of fun the dog will theoretically have off-lead.

 

I've only met a handful of dogs that I thought should never be let off lead. By "curious coincidence" they were all pathologically aggressive - either to dogs, humans or both. They were all eventually euthanized after extensive efforts failed to rehabilitate them. Provided you know your dog well, I think you just figure out what the acceptable risks are and unsnap the lead when you feel confident enough to do so. The most carefully managed dogs can sometimes find ways to get killed, and the most carelessly handled ones sometimes die of old age.

[ejano]

When the dog swings around in midstride and turns back to you 100% of the time, you've got 100% recall. I trust Ladybut 100% when I am paying attention to her. I trust Robin the same in situations that he has been exposed to....he's had very limited exposure to sheep, for example. Ditto for Brodie. So I wouldn't expect or demand 100% obedience right off the bat. When I first let the pups go, I had my heart in my throat and a good quantity of steak in my pocket. I used the a variation of the clicker method, only I had a gym whistle....blew one short burst on the whistle, fed them steak....said a prayer, and let them go.....bless be St. Francis, they came back. I also had Ladybug....if nothing else, I figured, they'd follow her back...and they did. Step two....let each one go individually...but by this time they had the whistle/steak thing pretty much ingrained in their head. It's been about a year and they don't need the whistle or the reward any more...one quick "Name, Come!" and they're on it. Not that they'd refuse it, but they come back very promptly even when (heart in throat again) I let them get out of sight in the brush in the orchard. I let them go the other day when my brother in law was with me and they did that wide, natural outrun out of sight and popped out on the other side of the field. He was amazed at their speed. They come back from that first "outrun" -- say hi and go off again...have their own woodchuck holes and mouse nests to nose around. What really pleases me is when I take Mr Independence (Robin) he is now checking back on his own, but I always carry leashes with me and when we get to a certain point in our walk as we are heading back, I clip them up because we are heading toward the road and nothing in life is 100%. (See Ladybug and frog herding in the willful dog discussion...)

 

There has been a lot of discussion about only letting dogs off leash when 100% recall is achieved or only in certain circumstances. Judging that you have achieved 100% perfection - how is that done? No one here ever wants to put their dog in danger. But can or should you always limit activities to those that you keep your dog 100% safe. Wouldn't this limit agility training ( sometimes injuries happen) or working your dogs on livestock? When out with a dog off lead that dog gets 100% of my attention. I feel it is my responsibility to read the dog's intentions - to redirect his mission. Each time I am working with the dog - I try for the best situation, stacking success in my favor - but I also think that each time the dog works well off leash that dog "matures".

 

So..... how can you determine that you have achieved %100 recall? Thanks

[Alchemist]

I'm not sure that 100.000% recall is ever attainable - at least with me as a trainer. The closest I've come is in calling Duncan out from his favorite place on earth - a local stream. Other dog owners, in seeing his enjoyment of the spot, will say "huh, good luck getting HIM out of there!" and then be flabbergasted when he comes immediately on being called. But this didn't happen overnight. And I doubt I'd ever be able to call him into a burning fireworks warehouse (though so far, touch wood, no evidence of fireworks phobia). I'm also not sure I'd be able to call him away from a lacrosse or soccer game. Too much fun to watch. But Duncan is still young (not even a year and a half). I am still having problems with him wanting to bolt when we get close to the stream. It's not a "risk" to him because I know exactly where I'll find him, but it's a sign to me that we still have a ways to go on managing his impulse control (which is why I won't simply leash him as we get close).

 

For me it's a question of "risk/benefit" analysis. I agree there's some element of risk every time you go outdoors. A tree branch could fall on you, or a meteorite could strike you. (Come to think - they could both hit your house, too). But the benefit of fresh air and exercise outweighs the risks. As you point out, there's maturation that occurs off leash, and in my mind that's a big benefit. Another is simply being able to enjoy watching your dog be a dog! And of course they can get a lot more exercise on a walk while off-leash than leashed. But that doesn't mean that the risk of walking with a two-month-old puppy unleashed on a city street is at all acceptable.

 

We started off "easy" - no cars or distractions that could possibly come close, and an irresistable lure, so the "risk" was low. Lots of recalls with treats and being sent right back out to play some more. And we progressed from there, with gradually more distracting settings, until we felt more comfortable with the notion that potential risks really weren't an issue. Lots of requests to "check in" so that we know he'll come back.

 

"Failsafes" are always useful. A long line (I'm pretty sure many people use them when introducing dogs to stock until they're sure they can resist their allure) is useful in the beginning, as are toys or treats that can't be resisted.

 

But there are still situations I'll avoid - mostly because I'm likely to be cited and given a $1,000 fine for an off-leash dog than anything else. And I guess I wouldn't want to be red-carded off the soccer field when my pup's impulse control finally broke.

[Shetlander]

I'm not sure that 100.000% recall is ever attainable - at least with me as a trainer.

 

I'd say the same thing about my dogs because stuff happens even with the best trained, most reliable dogs. Now all of my dogs, with the rather shocking exception of Quinn, have had what I consider Really Reliable Recalls. By that I mean being easily and immediately called off from hugely rewarding/exciting situations such as chasing rabbits, seeing someone they love, etc. This is something that happens over time with some formal training and lots of practice in everyday life. I make coming to me rewarding every time with a treat and praise when they are pups. I don't let them practice ignoring recalls through a variety of techniques (drag line so I can easily snag them, keeping them leashed in certain situations, trying to avoid calling them if I think they might not obey and walking them down when they ignore me).

 

For some reason, even with doing way more work on Quinn's recall, at age five he only has what I consider a fairly reliable recall and is by far the least trustworthy of any dog I've owned as an adult. We still periodically revisit what "here" means. Maybe someday he'll hit Really Reliable like my other dogs.

[Lenajo]

It's a living, breathing animal, so 100% is not possible.

 

Can you reach the point that you would be surprised if your dog *didn't* come even if there were high level distractions? Yes. But 100%? Not possible.

 

I find the closest to perfect is a dog that you've had a long and solid working career with. You know 99% of the dog's triggers and are 99% on the base commands (down and come). You pre-strike when you see a temptation and then the dog is pretty darn likely to come as requested.

 

To carry over from the other thread, even my working dogs in their prime of life wear a leash when the consequences for minor disobedience, or even slow obedience, could be serious or dangerous. They are still dogs, and they are not capable of understanding that people do things like speed in hotel parking lots, back up without looking, etc. It's not the they *need* a leash, it is that I *choose* to use a leash because it is in the their best interest at that time.

[mbc1963]

Interesting question!

 

I only let my dog off leash when we're way out in the woods, away from cars and people. I worked long and hard on "stay" and "wait" with him - to the point where he would freeze and lie down in the path if I asked him to. So, if he's off leash and I see another dog (danger of his snarking) or a human (danger that they don't like dogs), I just say "wait" and leash him. He's never (yet) not stopped when I asked him to. But he's a loooooong way from 100%. He won't chase squirrels or deer - but heaven forbid a skunk should cross our path - then it's war!

 

In our daily life, I've never found the real "100% recall" necessary. He's a pet dog, he isn't let out into traffic, and whenever there's danger, he's leashed. I've never met another dog who had 100%, either.

 

Does anyone believe their dog is for certain 100%?

 

Mary

[ejano]

Nothing in life in life is 100% - I believe Ladybug is as close is a dog could ever get and even she has her moments where she will go her own way (to the frog pond) but I have seen her quite literally twist her body around in mid stride and come back to us with just one "Ladybug, come." That's the goal I worked toward with the pups and it is a moving target....every day, every new experience is building block toward solidifying the recall as well as other commands...you point out the difference between "stay" and "wait".....the boys have yet to be tested on deer...I know they will turn and come back from birds and a few other temptations, but deer....don't know...we've been lazy this summer in the heat, not doing too much in the way of training. This thread is a good reminder to me that's time for everyone to go back to school.

 

Lz

(Apologies - I am still having problems with the board's features when using Mozilla Firefox...)

 

Interesting question!

 

I only let my dog off leash when we're way out in the woods, away from cars and people. I worked long and hard on "stay" and "wait" with him - to the point where he would freeze and lie down in the path if I asked him to. So, if he's off leash and I see another dog (danger of his snarking) or a human (danger that they don't like dogs), I just say "wait" and leash him. He's never (yet) not stopped when I asked him to. But he's a loooooong way from 100%. He won't chase squirrels or deer - but heaven forbid a skunk should cross our path - then it's war!

 

In our daily life, I've never found the real "100% recall" necessary. He's a pet dog, he isn't let out into traffic, and whenever there's danger, he's leashed. I've never met another dog who had 100%, either.

 

Does anyone believe their dog is for certain 100%?

 

Mary

[Cody & Duchess]

Then - if 100% is not possible - do you never let off leash due to the risk? In todays world many parents really limit their kid's independence in comparison to the 50's and 60's because of risk. Are we trying to safety lock the world?

[bcnewe2]

I say my dogs are al close to 100% as they can be. But I also fool proof myself. I wouldn't call them out of the pond unless I was in a postion to make the "listen" which sometimes isn't possible so I keep them 100% by not asking them if I think they aren't going to hear me.

 

Mick is as reliable as I could ever want.

Recently we were in the city (somewhere he rarely goes and never has he been to a huge busy city where he was totally loose) at my daughters new flat. I've never worried about letting them out a back door where the street isn't right there for the accident to happen.

So he flies out the back door, and runs to the fence. He gets on a bunny trail and is heading right into the alley. I call him, totally expecting him to turn on a dime. He doesn't hear me. He is totally engrossed in the bunny trail. Take in consideration he's never been there before and really is out of his element.

He's about out the yard (no back fence) heading down the alley hot on the bunny trial. I race to him, I had gotten him to slow down with my voice but really didn't have his head totally with me. I'm able to grab him by the tail which yanks his brain back to me. With that he is right back to 100% recall. So we go back to the yard, I set him on the bunny trail and proof the new situation. It hasn't happened again but there for a minute I could of lost him.

 

So are they 100% reliable? I think they are in situations they are famuliar with, but out of their element STM impossible to be sure, so buyer beware and use a leash when you feel the slightest twinge of maybe.

 

Dew has a different kind of recall, way more embedded than Mick. Mick learned his by practice. Dew learned hers by accident and I think it's stored in a different place in her brain.

One night Dew was a young pup of about 4-6 months old and decided she could chase DH's truck in the dark. I went after her to catch her and put her up, she had no recall to speak of. She ran away, so I hunted her down. Again I was just trying to keep her from being run over but very adament about catching her.

We played chase for about 10 minutes. I went in and got my training lunge whip, something she had never seen nor do I hardly ever use and have never whipped a dog with it. But this was serious life or death. I finally caught up with her whipping the ground around her to get my point across. Proabably way to hard or stern for what the sitaution had called for but I was tired and this dangerous game had gone on for way to long.

What happened was right there at that moment she learned to NEVER chase cars and I inadvertantly trained her rock solid recall.

NOw I can watch her when I whistle or call and it's like automatic, her brain just turns to my voice and here she comes, with as much speed as she can muster. No thought at all, just action.

 

But again, I think 100% is only trustable in situations that they have been in before.

 

Heck, I'm not 100% reliable in anything I do, why would we expect them to be.

 

I leash my dogs if I feel the need, of course I'd leash them around traffic. Why test when it's life or death. Would I leash them in a situation that was new if it wasn't dangerous. Probably not cause soon it wouldn't be new and just a new proofed recall.

[Shetlander]

Then - if 100% is not possible - do you never let off leash due to the risk? In todays world many parents really limit their kid's independence in comparison to the 50's and 60's because of risk. Are we trying to safety lock the world?

 

I think it depends on you, the dog and the situation. Like Mary, I don't have that much call to have my dogs off leash. There are situations where I can and do let my dogs off leash. There are situations where I can but usually don't because I'm too preoccupied to give them the attention required to avoid problems or potential tragedy. And there are situations where I wouldn't consider having my dog off leash because of the danger, the rules or the law.

 

To me 100% not being possible is simply one factor that is weighed in deciding whether to leash my dog. I can't think of too much in life that is truly 100%. Can you?

 

This discussion makes me think of my puppies and how when I first get them are motivated to stay close to me and there isn't much leashing going on at first. However, there always comes a time when I look at my puppy and snap a leash on his collar when we go out. I don't remember any dramatic incidents that occurred before I became more cautious with any of them. Probably there is an accumulation of small changes in how they respond to me that makes me no longer trust that they will always come running quickly and happily to "Puppy, Puppy, Puppy!" At that point, I decide off leash is not a risk I want to take in some situations with that pup. Interesting enough, Quinn was never especially good about staying close even at 9 weeks so maybe he comes by his less than 99% recall honestly.

[SecretBC]

I consider two of my three dogs to have very good recalls, but I still am cautious about the environments in which they get to go off leash. The oldest one gets more freedom than my youngest, because he listens better. He can be off leash at hotels to potty, for example, because I know he will not run off in front of a car or to greet other people or dogs. Secret stays on leash in such situations because she doesn't quite have that impulse control at less than a year old. Kaiser flips me the bird, so he stays on leash almost always.

 

In general, my dogs always start on leash and if I feel that the situation warrants it and is safe, I let them off. Even the little turd, sometimes, but we must always be well away from traffic and other situations I cannot control.

[Cody & Duchess]

Grace - got date feb 2010 - is totally frisbee motivated. To her, the best part of the day is when she is playing frisbee. We live in a somewhat rural area - I play frisbee with her in our unfenced yard at least 3 times a day. I trust her off leash when the frisbee is involved - but not hiking. I am also always scanning the fields for elk, deer and rabbit. Can I say that she would never divert her attention from frisbee and me to wildlife? Not 100%. I have my whistle with me and treats as a back up. For 6 weeks now she has shown that in this situation she is good off leash. Her total joy of racing after the frisbee makes me willing to take the chance- plus her total addiction to that disk. From some other threads I was just wondering if I was being irresponsible.

[burdock]

In our state there is a leash law plus a law to pick up after your pet, so do you take a chance and lose your pet do to your stupidity, for instance i tell our neighbor that our dog may come nto heat and he has a male boxer that he just lets run loose no regard for the law and our Emma across the road see's the dog running around and pulls a big eye hook out of the desk to get across the road after there dog, so our dog is in danger because his dog was running around like crazy and caused her to pull a big eye hook out of the deck and run across the road with a 50 foot lead in tow behind her, thanks god she was not hit in the road and i was able to call her back before anything happened but, that just goes to show you anything can happen unexpectedly without reason. I could not pull that eye hook out but, at a full run she had enough power to pop it right out of the pressure treated wood, but in turn if he followed the law and his dog was in his own yard it would not of happened. My only dog that was close to 100% was a Rottie-Dobie cross i trained using the Air force Military dog training guide as a guide to her obedience training and she got into trouble one time coming out of my mother's house one night off leash and some one had just hit a rabbit in the road in front of the house and she saw it flailing around in the road and went to investigate and could of been hit by a car, and thats it s--t happened and we have no control over it and it it worth it to lose a loved dog just to let them off leash. The owner has to make that decision at the time.

[Shetlander]

Her total joy of racing after the frisbee makes me willing to take the chance- plus her total addiction to that disk. From some other threads I was just wondering if I was being irresponsible.

 

I think it is a judgment call and what makes total sense for one person might be insanity for the next. With a Frisbee, ball, tug or really any toy in my hand, I also have Quinn's undivided attention and am comfortable with him off leash in an unsecured setting (but not next to busy roads). Sheep keep his focus even better but those are close to 90 minutes away, so not practical. Otherwise, we live in a subdivision where dogs are expected to be contained or leashed, which is quite fine by me. We're very happy with our privacy fenced in back yard and tooling around the neighborhood on leash.

 

Just as there are many ways to train dogs, there are many ways to live with them. You need to decide what works for you. I do know that the older I've become the more I think about safety and act accordingly. 25 years ago, I let my dogs off leash WAY more often in way more situations than I would even consider doing today. But that's me, based on my experiences, with my dogs and the locale in which I live. If I lived where you lived, my dogs could well be off leash most of the time. Even my naughty Border Collie.

[ejano]

The first time I let the pups off lead was a risk...but I did things to reduce the risk (steak, trained to whistle, they already had a good recall in a fenced in area, and of course, the habit of following a trained dog back.) Training is progressive and to me it is baby steps. I do have a great deal of fear because I did lose a beloved dog to the road when I thought that he was boundary trained but we had allowed him to meander into the woods out of sight and he took advantage of "one step more" and wandered even further in the wrong direction to our sorrow. But, if I've got my full attention on a dog and he's trusting me 100%, then I've got to return his loyalty, otherwise we will never grow together.

 

That said, no I"m not letting my dogs off lead anywhere within sight of a road. But I did set up a test Robin with machinery the other day...we were out in our favorite field and Dh had the Kaboda idling behind the barn. I know the boys are pretty well machine proof because of all the activity on the farm where they were born but I wondered if they had forgotten it, or if the tractor would be a point of interest. I was on him 100%, The tractor wasn't moving, and DH knew what I was doing (he was to ignore the dog). Robin swung around to look because DH was there, but I was able to turn him around immediately and we continued our walk. Building distractions to strengthen the recall.

 

Someone noted in the Dog Fancy thread that (and please forgive the paraphrase) a good leash is metaphysical -- it's always there, whether it is clipped on or not....either as a six foot lead or as your "presence" keeping the dog with you. The recall, the stay, the wait, the down, is wonderful "obedience" training, but what it is really hazard mitigation, making the world a safer place for you and your dog so that you can go out and enjoy the day with some confidence. .

 

Liz

 

 

Then - if 100% is not possible - do you never let off leash due to the risk? In todays world many parents really limit their kid's independence in comparison to the 50's and 60's because of risk. Are we trying to safety lock the world?

[in2adventure]

Nothing in life is 100%. What fun would it be if our lives were so protected from harm?

 

Minimizing the harm is my goal. If I'm near a steet, they get leashed 100% of the time. If I'm in the National Forest, it's area dependant. Risk of bears, falling off a cliff, chasing livestock etc. so i try and pick places to hike that are pretty "safe" so they can run to their heart's content.

 

As for recall, this is also situational. Lucia gives me the middle paw quite often and I know the situations where I can trust her off leash and she'll listen and which ones she won't. Off leash time is completely guaged by the situations we are in. Grady is God's gift to recalls. He has the most amazing natural recall I have ever seen on a dog. He can be in mid drive to something/someone, I can casually say his name and he'll come to a screeching halt and look at me. If I say Grady come, it's immediate and without question. His only issue is, he doesn't like to stick at my side when I need him to stay close. He gets a leash in those situations, not because of recall, but because he won't stay close enough.

[njnovice]

I would consider Sinead to be about as close to 100% as a dog can get. I haven't given her any formal training. She just comes when called. She took off after a deer in the yard a couple times, but she has always pretty much turned on a dime and come back when called. So, I very rarely keep her on a leash. She basically just goes on a leash if we're walking in a place with a lot of traffic or if I'm taking her to the pet store/vet.

 

Mick is doing better. I take him to the lake where it's mostly enclosed and he's good there. If I have a frisbee or ball, he'll always come, except in my backyard. If he's not on a leash, I do keep a drag line on him, because I don't totally trust him. If he's in the backyard, he's on his chain 100% of the time. The only time he's ever really off-leash is at my mom's, the lake, and while doing off-leash heel work with him.

[alligande]

I agree that nothing in life is a 100% my dogs have decent recalls and we do monitor them when off leash but nothing in life is guaranteed. I feel that this debate as some one else has mentioned is similar to children having less freedom than they did, regardless that there is no evidence that violence against children has risen. My dogs have a lot less freedom than the ones I grew up with, but a lot more than many I know.

I would say I am a calculated risk taker, I used to play polo, learned to hang-glide, have sailed thousands of miles offshore and have been self-employed for 13 years, and I take the same attitude to my dogs being off leash.

[Gloria Atwater]

Then - if 100% is not possible - do you never let off leash due to the risk? In todays world many parents really limit their kid's independence in comparison to the 50's and 60's because of risk. Are we trying to safety lock the world?

 

 

Oh, hell no! I'm not going to cling to my dogs and wrap them in cotton wool.

 

But that said, I don't believe any dog - or even any person - is 100% solid on anything. Impulse or accident, there are always variables, always the uncontrolled or unexpected factors that can influence expected behaviors. My old dog Jesse is almost never on leash - but I would never in a million years count him as 100% solid on his recall. One just never knows when the perceived reward of an escape or dash after a prize will, in the wink of an eye, completely override 11 years of good behavior.

 

I do not consider any amount of training, however polished, as 100% impulse control. Heck, if I had human children, I wouldn't consider my teaching of them to be proof against youthful impulse, and dogs live their entire lives in a state of arrested puppyhood.

 

But I do my best to condition my dogs to safe, reliable off-leash behaviors. I put a lot of effort into teaching my dogs to a certain ideal. To me it's a necessity. I'm at friends' farms or ranches, I'm at herding trials, I'm on the trails or in the mountains - my dogs don't live their lives tethered to me, and they don't view being off leash as an excuse to bolt for the hills.

 

Yet I am also VERY careful about where I drop that leash. It takes only an instant for a dog to dash under a set of wheels. I try to get my recall as solid as I can ... but nothing is a 100% guarantee against that unforeseen moment of impulse and disaster.

Cheers ~

 

Gloria