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Foundation work


Carlasl
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Just wanted to start a thread on what things you like to do for Agility foundation work, games, drills etc.....any DVD's you have found very useful.

 

The instructors at our club use APHS.

 

So miss Maya is 7months old now and is doing very well.

 

We went to a Karen Holik puppy foundation seminar several weeks ago and learn some great things.

 

We of course are doing foundation work now, and she has been introduced to a tippy board and a training plank (starting some very beginning 2o2o) and a tunnel (because she was TERRIFIED of tunnels when she first saw them).

 

I want to keep her familiar with stepping on strange things and doing things but not overwhelm or over train her yet, Everything we do is very fun very short and usually involves a lot of play inbetween.

 

I don't want to jump her at all until she is 14mo old, and we are going to do 2X2 weave method and won't start that until she is 14mo also.

 

We will most likely wait until March to start group classes when Maya will be 11mo old.

 

I was looking at DVD's to ask for, for Christmas and I was thinking about getting crate games, and I was looking at some of the foundation DVD's and at Susan Salo's puppy jumping DVD. There are so many DVD's out there it is hard to know which one you would like, I wish I could "rent" them and not have to buy them.

 

Any suggestions would be great.

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With Crate Games just be careful - there are a lot of dogs becoming very crate aggresive from this training.

 

Interesting. I didn't know that.

 

I know only two dogs who have been through the crate games program. Both of them are having a really difficult time learning to relax outside of the crate, and to find value in items other than the crate.

 

I'm not blaming Crate Games for this per se, just saying it's a red flag to me at this point.

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Interesting. I didn't know that.

 

I know only two dogs who have been through the crate games program. Both of them are having a really difficult time learning to relax outside of the crate, and to find value in items other than the crate.

 

I'm not blaming Crate Games for this per se, just saying it's a red flag to me at this point.

 

 

That's not suprising either.

 

The other thing I have seen that I don't like is that they set up a crate 30 feet from the end of the dogwalk and the dog is supposed to do the dogwalk and drive into the crate - well, I have seen the crate fly 20 feet when the dog hits the back of it full tilt. Not what I would be wanting my dog to do - and this is at seminars people are taking.

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I actually don't know much about APHS, i was reading a comparison about it in the latest clean run mag. I actually prefer the Greg Derrett handling system as it seems less complicated and i think makes more sense to the dog. So having a friend attend a seminar last week and suck Greg Derrett brain of all the knowledge she could we have come to the conclusion that all that needs to be done is CIRCLEWORK or SHADOW HANDLING! His puppy at 13 mo. isn't even nose touching to perpex yet as when you think about it they won't be competing till at least 18 mo. so they have all the time in the world to learn all their contacts and weaves and jumps. All that needs to be concentrated on now is making sure your dog will follow your arm signals. This includes doing ALOT of shadow handling moving around with the dog on inside and outside, switching arms keeping the dog on the right side. Running circles with the dog keeping up and close (but not to close! we don't want people falling over) So by the time you come to compete you could stand 100m away and direct the dog flawlessly through just arm signals. (or almost) I know it sucks to take such a huge step back but it is well worth it and it has taken this long for us in Australia to realise. With this new training style you are sure to see us Aussies at future world championships!

 

I have no issues with crate games and have never seen it. If i didn't do it then when i put them in a crate they would fret and scream. Saying this you should teach them to just drop or lie down and be fine when you walk away (regarded their stay is good) or be happy being tied to a fence or similar. I never use my crate in agility training, only for at home, work and at a trial. It gives them a space to rest where they know it is time to rest and are comfortable.

 

I would continue with building her confidence if she was scared of the tunnel. My 5 month has done tunnels but only because she is just running i do not complicate things and keep the tunnel straight. I set up flat planks at home off balance and get my girlies to go over them but then again my youngest has no confidence issues and im pretty sure would attempt a full size seesaw :rolleyes: One other thing to for foundations is do tables!!! When an agility dog gets older and faster can tend to avoid the table because it is their version of a time out. Play games on it, i shape tricks on it and everytime i go out to train my 17 month old i put my pup on the table, i use it for stationary recalls and in front of the tunnel as a distraction. She knows and has since she was 12 weeks she must drive to the table, dop instantly all paws on the tabel (not hanging off) and wait. Once she is on she can't get off until she hears that magic release word.

 

For the most part just do alot of obedience, recall especially, sit stays, drop stays, stand, left and right, nose touches just the basics really. and you'll be rewarded for a brilliant agility dog.

(sorry my post is so long)

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I actually don't know much about APHS, i was reading a comparison about it in the latest clean run mag. I actually prefer the Greg Derrett handling system as it seems less complicated and i think makes more sense to the dog. So having a friend attend a seminar last week and suck Greg Derrett brain of all the knowledge she could we have come to the conclusion that all that needs to be done is CIRCLEWORK or SHADOW HANDLING! His puppy at 13 mo. isn't even nose touching to perpex yet as when you think about it they won't be competing till at least 18 mo. so they have all the time in the world to learn all their contacts and weaves and jumps. All that needs to be concentrated on now is making sure your dog will follow your arm signals. This includes doing ALOT of shadow handling moving around with the dog on inside and outside, switching arms keeping the dog on the right side. Running circles with the dog keeping up and close (but not to close! we don't want people falling over) So by the time you come to compete you could stand 100m away and direct the dog flawlessly through just arm signals. (or almost) I know it sucks to take such a huge step back but it is well worth it and it has taken this long for us in Australia to realise. With this new training style you are sure to see us Aussies at future world championships!

 

Don't get stuck in any one particular handling "system" or you will have trouble. There are pros and cons to each handling "system". You need to have lots of tools in your tool box to handle courses. Having been competing in agility since 1990, I have seen a lot of changes.

 

Some handling systems are quite restricted. and have certain don'ts. Those that stick strictly to certain handling methods I have no problem designing courses that they aren't able to handle or Q on because of the do's and don'ts of that particular handling system. Not that I deliberately design them for that, but when I design courses I have a theme in mind or certain types of handling moves in mind, and if you don't have the proper tools to run the course, you get into trouble. BTW - I never design a course that my dogs can't handle.

 

At the 2008 AAC Nationals a whole group of people that adhered to one particular handling system all failed at a simple gamble that was easy as pie, simply because one of that system's rules is "you never flip your dog away from yourself". So, guess what handling was required in this gamble - top handlers failed because they couldn't do a simple flip away.

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Don't get stuck in any one particular handling "system" or you will have trouble. There are pros and cons to each handling "system". You need to have lots of tools in your tool box to handle courses.

 

I second this. I'm still pretty new to Agility, but in our classes, we are on our second handling system. Our instructor used to follow the Derrett system and now we do APHS.

 

I will say that I generally prefer the bits of APHS that I have learned, and my dogs seem to naturally understand it. I always felt like a blundering idiot when I tried to follow some of the stricter Derrett rules, and then my dog would check out of the building. BUT, there are still elements of the Derrett system, and bits of handling that don't fit into a system at all, that I incorporate. Shoot, I've used Freestyle out there in a pinch! Sometimes it gets the job done!!

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Don't get stuck in any one particular handling "system" or you will have trouble. There are pros and cons to each handling "system". You need to have lots of tools in your tool box to handle courses. Having been competing in agility since 1990, I have seen a lot of changes.

 

Some handling systems are quite restricted. and have certain don'ts. Those that stick strictly to certain handling methods I have no problem designing courses that they aren't able to handle or Q on because of the do's and don'ts of that particular handling system. Not that I deliberately design them for that, but when I design courses I have a theme in mind or certain types of handling moves in mind, and if you don't have the proper tools to run the course, you get into trouble. BTW - I never design a course that my dogs can't handle.

 

At the 2008 AAC Nationals a whole group of people that adhered to one particular handling system all failed at a simple gamble that was easy as pie, simply because one of that system's rules is "you never flip your dog away from yourself". So, guess what handling was required in this gamble - top handlers failed because they couldn't do a simple flip away.

 

I'm not strictly Derrett Handling System but to me it makes the most sense. I can logically work things out. I am generally a freestyle person and i would like to be able to follow all the handling rules but i can't. So i keep the generals in mind and if for some reason i do a blind cross, too bad, as long as it worked. Me and Myla can read each other and regarded im on time with my instructions she knows exactly where to go. I think it's a good idea to have a base system to work from but then not be stuck to only that.

 

I think circle work or shadow handling is still extremely important. No matter what system you use your dog still needs to know how to read your body or arm signals. Deceleration helps too.

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The APHS is pretty common sense as well. I'm not all that familiar with GD, but the basic premise of APHS is just that you move the way you want the do to go, and that the dog naturally reads your position to determine if they're turning (and possibly collecting) or going straight (and probably extending). If the dog is approaching a jump and you're charging ahead full speed they should extend and look ahead for the next thing. If they're approaching a jump and you're decelerating or moving laterally, they should collect and turn in the direction you're going. Anything can sound complicated if you put a bunch of rules around it. I found it very easy to use - my dogs just picked it up right off the bat.

 

But to get to your original question, since I'm sure you didn't intend to start a discussion handling systems, one of the very most important obstacle things I like to teach to puppies is the contact position (2on2off). If they learn it as pups it 's almost like they're brainwashed and would never dream of doing it any other way, and it becomes so reinforcing for them at such a young age that it pretty much takes on a value of its own, to the point where it would become a hard behavior to extinguish - makes it hold up great in the ring when you start competing and can't reward it in the ring. The second most important thing I've found is let the puppy learn how to learn, teach the clicker and use it to teach little tricks, so they learn at a young age to use their minds and to look at learning as always something fun. Once they have that, they can learn almost anything you care to teach them very quickly.

 

Diana

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But to get to your original question, since I'm sure you didn't intend to start a discussion handling systems, one of the very most important obstacle things I like to teach to puppies is the contact position (2on2off). If they learn it as pups it 's almost like they're brainwashed and would never dream of doing it any other way, and it becomes so reinforcing for them at such a young age that it pretty much takes on a value of its own, to the point where it would become a hard behavior to extinguish - makes it hold up great in the ring when you start competing and can't reward it in the ring. The second most important thing I've found is let the puppy learn how to learn, teach the clicker and use it to teach little tricks, so they learn at a young age to use their minds and to look at learning as always something fun. Once they have that, they can learn almost anything you care to teach them very quickly.

 

Diana

 

Great advice about letting puppies learn how to learn!

With teaching them contacts make sure they don't do the contact obstacles first. We want them to not know that they don't have to contact until much much later. Start with teaching them to back up (this will help them know how to use their weight which should be in the rear to stop pressure on the shoulders) then move to a flat board on the ground. Teaching them to stand 2o2o with a nose touch (or few) if possible. THEN move onto the obstacle once it is proofed on a plank or stairs. Start by them assuming the "contact position" and rewarding. Then put them on half way up the down plank to drive into "position". Or perhaps put a table next to the down plank and get them to get on that then into position. Once you have done this and are happy with it. Send them over the entire obstacle. This way they will not learn that there is any other way to perform the obstacle. Remember to proof the "position" at the training stage with distractions and body position then when you get to the obstacle it will be a breeze. I did it this way and Myla has contacts that many envy. She flys over the obstacle (no creeping down to the position) and lands weight in the rear (to avoid shoulder issues) nose touching between her front feet until released. Regarded she is not perfect and i recently had to practice her landing as she was moving her back end side ways if i was further back so now she has learnt once her feet plant on the ground that is where they should stay. none of this twisting around business to see where i am. But that is a great thing to teach a puppy. HUGE rewards when i comes to trialling time and you are way behind where you should be :rolleyes:

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How exciting for you !!! :D

 

While learning one training method is fine , do try to learn diffferent ones . Learning diffferent ways will give you sort of a "toolbox" of methods you will use all throughout your agility career. Believe me , there will come times you will feel , "this just isnt working" or "he just doesnt get it", and you will be able to "try" a different way....

 

Since you are waiting for your pup to get older before jumping (good idea) try teaching nose touches and exercises to warm up before agility. This is really important and familiarizing a pup with stretching and balance is easy and fun for them...Look at the cleanrun website ,they have a nice selection of DVDs . The wobble board is great for working and strenghtening muscles. Remember to ALWAYS warm your dogs muscles before agility.

 

Going to seminars and leaving with a few new tools is always a win/win , but dont dedicate yourself to only one way.

I'm sure you know what works for one doesnt even apply to the other...LOL :rolleyes:

 

When you do train , remember to treat , treat , treat and PAR-TEE when your pup does right and never say "no" or look unhappy . Just say "oops" try again . If you stay upbeat , so will your pup . Always set the dog up to succeed and always end on a postive note , no matter how "bad" the training session has gone. Remember , dogs dont look to run up and down aframes and hit their 2o2o on their own...they do it because it makes us happy...

Ok , I forgot this is a BC site....Ok , my mistake, "MOST DOGS " dont run up and down aframes on their own, LOL... :D

 

Enjoy the ride...but remember...AGILITY IS ADDICTING !!!!! LOL.....

 

Best wishes and BREATHE ! :D

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If you have access to back issues of Clean Run, I would read Nancy Gyes' "Spy Kids" series (her month by month description of foundation training a new puppy in her family, who is now, at barely a couple of years old, already a super star).

 

Read the training section of Sylvia Trkman's website.

 

Also, Moe Strenfel's foundation DVD (which I thought for sure Kristine would have recommended!).

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Great advice about letting puppies learn how to learn!

With teaching them contacts make sure they don't do the contact obstacles first. We want them to not know that they don't have to contact until much much later. Start with teaching them to back up (this will help them know how to use their weight which should be in the rear to stop pressure on the shoulders) then move to a flat board on the ground. Teaching them to stand 2o2o with a nose touch (or few) if possible. THEN move onto the obstacle once it is proofed on a plank or stairs. Start by them assuming the "contact position" and rewarding. Then put them on half way up the down plank to drive into "position". Or perhaps put a table next to the down plank and get them to get on that then into position. Once you have done this and are happy with it. Send them over the entire obstacle. This way they will not learn that there is any other way to perform the obstacle. Remember to proof the "position" at the training stage with distractions and body position then when you get to the obstacle it will be a breeze. I did it this way and Myla has contacts that many envy. She flys over the obstacle (no creeping down to the position) and lands weight in the rear (to avoid shoulder issues) nose touching between her front feet until released. Regarded she is not perfect and i recently had to practice her landing as she was moving her back end side ways if i was further back so now she has learnt once her feet plant on the ground that is where they should stay. none of this twisting around business to see where i am. But that is a great thing to teach a puppy. HUGE rewards when i comes to trialling time and you are way behind where you should be :rolleyes:

 

Yes, this is how I teach it as well. My last two dogs learned on a board in my living room to just 'assume the position', to the point where they'd go put themselves on the board in position from anywhere, with me no where near. Then we worked on get to the position by running over the board lengthwise. Then we moved to other locations and I had them do a tunnel to the board to the stop position, with me working up to running past, running laterally, stopping behind, etc (all different positions) and always rewarding by tossing a food reward straight in front of them no matter where I was. By the time they got old enough to start putting it on real contacts (starting with backchaining first) it was a breeze for them, no mistakes. I had solid independent fast contacts the very first time the dogs did a regulation contact obstacle for the first time. One thing that really made the light bulb go on for them as far as 'back feet must stay on the board' was to have then get in position, then let them nibble a treat and move the trreat to try to pull them off the board. As soon as a back foot came off I closed my hand over the treat, then opened it again as soon as they fixed it by stepping back. Don't do too much of this since it encourages weight on the front end, but doing it just a little in the beginning was great for teaching them the criteris about keeping the back feet on. I didn't use a target until later since I didn't want them learning the concept was all about touching a target which would cause the rest of the body to 'accidentally' get into position- I wanted the dog to make a conscious choice about where he put his body in relationship to the board, not to a target which at some point would need to go away. The nice thing about training it as a contact-oriented criteria (instead of target oriented) is that the contact will always be with you in the ring!

 

Diana

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I didn't use a target until later since I didn't want them learning the concept was all about touching a target which would cause the rest of the body to 'accidentally' get into position- I wanted the dog to make a conscious choice about where he put his body in relationship to the board, not to a target which at some point would need to go away. The nice thing about training it as a contact-oriented criteria (instead of target oriented) is that the contact will always be with you in the ring!

 

I agree with you about the target. I never taught Myla with a target, i added that much much later after she had been performing contact obstacles consistently for months. I had trouble with adding it later though as she would assume the position and then go oh thats right i have to nose touch. We only just got her driving straight to a nose touch. Although it isn't compulsory and i don't always ask for it, i go through stages where i don't bother and don't see the point but other times i feel like it is really important (for my dog) to keep her straight as she developed a tendency to twist around to me so a nose touch is my solution. It may or may not work for you.

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I teach the 2o2o without a nose touch and don't have trouble teaching the dog to stay straight. It's all about clicking for foot placaement at the initial stages. I have also used a very small squrare made out of thin PVC piping that is placed on the floor at the end of the down ramp and the dog is clicked and treated for having their front feet in that box only.

 

One of the reasons I don't like the nose touch method, is people are not consistent with it - particularly in the ring - their criteria changes and then pretty soon the dog is consistently blowing their contacts - often just the Aframe one. They will tell the dog to nose touch, but accept a head bob, or the dog just staring at them. Some handlers are very consistent with making sure the dogs do a nose touch all the time, but not very many. I also think a handler has to take into account the dog's build. Some dogs on the Aframe just are not comfortable in the position for the nose touch - they aren't built for it. The other thing to take into consideration when asking for a nose touch is that IF you are expecting the dog to go over the apex of the Aframe and do an auotomatic nose touch you are driving the dog down with all the weight on it's front end when it hits the bottom. That is hard on the front end. If you are askig the dog to transfer back onto its hindend and go down into a 2o2o position and then telling it to nose touch then that keeps the weight off of the front end. So how you teach the dog to do the nose touch makes a difference. I see too many dogs pile driving down to the bottom of the Aframe to do the nose touch and it makes me wince every time.

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My friend just recently started training equipment with her young BC (as his growth plates just closed). But during his first year besides letting him be a puppy, his agility foundation consisted of many tricks, Moe Strenfels(sp?) foundation DVD (which I am not getting because I keep hearing its awesome, and its never too late for foundation training!), and a bunch of shaping for 2o2o and I think basic table/tunnel stuff (when he was like 8-9 months), building a lot of forward drive and collection, as well as reading her body language. Since I kinda went every which way with Rush and I have been reading more about agility I would really like to do something similar with my next dog (whether it be puppy or adult:D).

 

I am with Northof49. I taught 2o2o without a nose touch(and will from now on). I feel like you are teaching the dog to touch a target and not really to do the 2o2o behavior, so I shaped it with Rush, and I am shaping it with Bear (though she isnt really into shaping so its more like an experiment lol), then I backchained so Rush knew where her position was and drove into it. Took me awhile to catch on because most advice I got for 2o2o work was ALL you MUST train with a target, and it didnt work lol. Each dog is different but I found that both my dogs had trouble grasping that the nose touch was transitioned into a 2o2o position and that no matter where I was that they should drive into the position with the same speed because they would still get the reward.

 

However you teach it I think just what everyone is trying to say is be consistent. :rolleyes:. I <3 puppy training. So much fun!

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I found that my dogs would start to collect themselves once over the apex because they knew they had to "touch/target".

So with that said, their 2o2o wouldnt cause them to jam their shoulders at the end of the Aframe. They taught themselves to rock back on their haunches .

 

Happy training.. :rolleyes:

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One of the reasons I don't like the nose touch method, is people are not consistent with it - particularly in the ring - their criteria changes and then pretty soon the dog is consistently blowing their contacts - often just the Aframe one. They will tell the dog to nose touch, but accept a head bob, or the dog just staring at them. Some handlers are very consistent with making sure the dogs do a nose touch all the time, but not very many. I also think a handler has to take into account the dog's build. Some dogs on the Aframe just are not comfortable in the position for the nose touch - they aren't built for it. The other thing to take into consideration when asking for a nose touch is that IF you are expecting the dog to go over the apex of the Aframe and do an auotomatic nose touch you are driving the dog down with all the weight on it's front end when it hits the bottom. That is hard on the front end. If you are askig the dog to transfer back onto its hindend and go down into a 2o2o position and then telling it to nose touch then that keeps the weight off of the front end.

 

I admit i am not consistent with the nose touch being important as when i first started training as long as Miles hit the contact it was fine but instructors being instructor there had to be a nose touch. Luckily my instructor has changed to a work friend i get along with very well and lets me be a bit more flexible. Miles drives to her contact position then will nose touch (at this point we are asking just for one) straight away, i wont let her drive down with her weight in the front. If your dog does then you need to completely redo your contacts as this is why they are there for safety.

 

I just had an ah ha moment! It was because of the nose touch she was moving. So simple, i should have figured that one out ages ago. Shame contacts are the only thing i don't video. Everytime she nose touched she would shimmy sideways. Thank god she is a willing pupil and learns so quickly. Yup nose touches after training are banished!

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I admit i am not consistent with the nose touch being important as when i first started training as long as Miles hit the contact it was fine but instructors being instructor there had to be a nose touch. Luckily my instructor has changed to a work friend i get along with very well and lets me be a bit more flexible. Miles drives to her contact position then will nose touch (at this point we are asking just for one) straight away, i wont let her drive down with her weight in the front. If your dog does then you need to completely redo your contacts as this is why they are there for safety.

 

I just had an ah ha moment! It was because of the nose touch she was moving. So simple, i should have figured that one out ages ago. Shame contacts are the only thing i don't video. Everytime she nose touched she would shimmy sideways. Thank god she is a willing pupil and learns so quickly. Yup nose touches after training are banished!

 

I would think if your dog would shimmy sideways on the aframe when attempting the nose touch , her weight would be on her front end , and not transferred to her hind end , right ? Or am I just picturing this wrong ...LOL..

I use nose touches to do alot of stretching exercises. If I hold my palm to my dog's right flank , she would bend ( like a u ) and touch my palm. and so on....

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I found that my dogs would start to collect themselves once over the apex because they knew they had to "touch/target".

So with that said, their 2o2o wouldnt cause them to jam their shoulders at the end of the Aframe. They taught themselves to rock back on their haunches .

 

Happy training.. :rolleyes:

 

I heard that a faster quicker contact (into a 2o2o) actually causes less stress because they are moving so fast by the time they stop the weight is shifted onto their HQ as well as their shoulders - nearly equally. Like if a dog jumped the apex of the AF, touched the contact and landed directly into a 2o2o, it would be better then a dog that creeped down the side of the AF very quickly and just put all stress on their shoulders. But maybe my information source is wrong? XD. I only do NADAC so there are no steep contacts for mah pooches anyway, was just curious about your theory of the target teaching them to reduce stress on their shoulders by reducing the impact. How did you teach them to rock back with a target though? or was it like naturally with the target.

 

(sorry, kinda slow tonight trying to connect dots)

 

:D

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Well i suppose technically her weight is in the front but her contact position weight is in the rear. It is not until she starts to move when nose touching then it transfers to the front (not good). If she is nose touching but not moving then the weight is still in the rear. I never realised that during all the foundation of targeting a piece of perspex on the ground was setting her up to fail later on. It never even occurred to me that whilst she was nose touching each time she would get more and more wound up until she was screaming whilst doing it and she would start to move her rear around the target whilst touching it. (She is pretty high drive about any training i do with her) Then when i moved onto an obstacle she was okay for a while until i would wait until she repeatedly nose touched (more than once or twice) before i released her. That is when this shimmy behaviour started happening and it is all because of her moving during the foundation work. Geez i can't believe it took me that long to realise it. Dogs learning is most of the time logical, but i can be just so stupid sometimes. I suppose that's when it helps to have a place like this, so other people can see what you don't.

 

I believe that teaching them to back up first before contacts helps. But i think style has alot to do with it and the speed. If the dog is slow weight would generally be in the front as they creep down. My girls performance is fast and she can tend to "slide" down on her bum, she shifts her weight once she has gone over the apex to slow down enough to not miss the contact zone. Although she can tend to hit the ground quite hard (because she is going so fast, the a-frame is her all time fav obstacle) and no matter the weight (front or back) it would probably have effect on her shoulders.

 

I just got a dogwalk built today!!! Woohoo, I will painting it tomorrow, maybe i will post a video of our contacts and confidence progression.

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