The PAT standard.

[desertranger]

This is actually cross posted overseas where I received a PM about training standards. It came about as a result of people online and in real life asking me what should I teach my dog next. After mulling over several answers I came up with first Basic Obedeience, next a few tricks and then teach them the Public Access Standard used by service dogs. As a result I've received the following (paraphrased) back, "Why should I teach my dog stuff the handicapped (read cripples on one case) need?" Athough it wasn't phrased as nicely. My response was why shouldn't you. Wouldn't it be nice to have a dog that responds like an SD? Here is the test itself, have a look at it. Wouldn't it be nice if most dogs would do at least some of this. Everyday I hear "Hey train my dogs for me?" "You're dogs are so well behaved how do you do it?" "Where do you get your dogs trained?" On the forums we talk about training and control all the time each one of us doing his own thing and basically wondering are we doing it right. For my dogs the answer is both dogs are train by me toward the level of the PAT test. Abby at 8yrs has about 85% of it already, Jin, still a puppy, has about half. What are the advantages? To start with I don't need a crate except for transportation. I can drop the lead while my hands are full and both dogs will immediately sit or lie down, not wander off, control their sniffing which minimizes the use of the leave it command, walk close beside me in a crowd among other dogs without a lead (Abby much better than Jin). It's so much fun to watch Jin pick up a half eaten hotdog and then watch him drop it when told to do so especially when I don't have to shove a treat into his mouth.

 

Sure Jin can still chase rabbits, herd sheep and play soccer but when he's in public I know he's not going to be a pain in the butt to others when were at lunch or walking down the street. Geez how many people out there are sitting at a cafe with their dogs drooling over the table for a dropped treat. I don't allow it at home and I certainly don't allow it in public. That goes for crotch sniffing, pickiing up garbage, begging and a lot of other undesirable dog habits we let them get into.

 

I'm not saying to do all of it, or even that it shuold be used by everyone but if you're looking for what to teach your dog then try some of the PAT standard.

 

Jin's latest PAT test pass was for restaurants and eateries. Walk in, no sniffing and that includes nose in the air, sit whenever I stop moving and to lie under the table or if not possible to lie out of the way and stay there for the duration of dinner including when you go to the restroom. No begging and no drooling just being a rug with feet until told to move. Taking a rest room break? No sniffing of urinals and toilets and floor. Teach that to your dog. *Beaming proud Papa*

 

I'm not a control freak as some may think but it is nice to have dogs that has better manners than a well brought up child.

[JohnLloydJones]

...then teach them the Public Access Standard used by service dogs. As a result I've received the following (paraphrased) back, "Why should I teach my dog stuff the handicapped (read cripples on one case) need?"

 

I didn't know such a test existed, but I have saved a copy and will certainly make sure that Senneca could meet the requirements. I know already that she can a good deal, though she is still a little scared about riding the elevator. Apart from that, she copes extremely well in crowded public places.

 

"You're dogs are so well behaved how do you do it?"

 

The most common question I get is "how did you get you dog to do that?". Oddly enough, when I tell them that I trained her, they give me a strange look. Do people expect that there is some magic that you can wave over a dog to make it well behaved?

[Debbie Meier]

Unrelated but related....

 

I was asked to produce a stock dog training seminar this past weekend at a local dog club. The participants were either using their dogs on the farm or were showing them in hopes of participating in herding events with them.

 

One of my first questions "How many of you consider yourselves to be dog trainers?" Not a single hand went up.

 

To me, that spoke volumes. My first order of business was to mentally empower them all as trainers. Next was to help them recognize what they wanted their dogs to do, recognize whether or not their dogs were doing things that they wanted or didn't want, and then help them figure out how to get the dog to offer the right behaivors and give them the tools to discourage the incorrect behaivors.

 

It ended up being a training seminar to help teach people to train dogs, not a stock dog training seminar.

 

It's kinda funny when people see a well behaived dog, they look at their dog that is misbehaived and see a broken dog, their dog just has problems. Some just don't connect the dots, change what I do and I can have that well behaived dog.

 

One of the seminar participants had a really nice female aussie. This dog when it arrived was all over the place, jumping, barking, growling, bitting her owner, coughing from hitting the end of the leash so hard. Her owner told me that this seminar was her last hope, she was ready to give the dog up. Not to long ago the dog took off after a squirrel, piled her owner up which resulted in a severe knee injury. The owner said that she wears rubber boots so that it does not hurt when the dog bites her ankles. She has resorted to tying her in the back yard, she was getting to the point of throwing in the towel.

 

I asked her if I could handle her dog for a few moments, to say the least she handled her over without a second thought. Immediately I began to set bounderies on the dog letting her know what I was willing to allow and what I was not. I'm not kidding, within minutes this dog changed, yeah she made mistakes but soon was behaiving like a well mannered dog. By noon her owner was getting the same behaivor, the dog went even so far as to stretch out and sleep, as opposed to being all over the place. The owner stated that she has never seen this dog behaive so well, that the dog is always running like a crazed beast through the house, she even admitted to trying to use a shock collar on her to get her to stop. The dog just learned to accept it and kept right on tearing things up. She said that she can't let her run enough to get her to calm down, she just has no end to energy, it was not due to lack of time, it just was not working she couldn't tire her out physically. She tried getting the dog to stay with her and walk with her using treats, they don't work, the dog could care less about treats when something else is more interesting, like strangers, squirrels, other dogs...

 

After lunch she commented about hoping that the dog was not just "Acting", thinking that she will go right back to being bad when she got home. I told her "yeah she will, if you let her, don't allow her misbehaivor anymore and show her how you want her to behaive." All she has to do is to take over the reins and become a trainer. This dog even began to show that she knew what sit and lie down meant and was offering the behaivors with a verbal cue.

 

The funny thing is, this lady has and trains horses, she understands how to train and would never dream of letting a horse behave or treat her like the dog did. She just was told that to get the dog to behave all she needed to do was feed it treats and exercise it. If you told her the same in regards to training well manner horses she would tell you that you are nuts.

 

At the end of the day this woman was loving her dog, I gave her a card telling her to feel free to call me if she needed help and that things were not going to just change overnight, and that there was going to be more change to be done on her part then the dogs. As she changes the dog will follow. I think she is going to succeed.

 

The disconnect just amazes me. I'm hoping I saved a dog from going to the shelter, or spending the rest of her life tied in the back yard.

[border_collie_crazy]

that story reminded me of the retriever class i went too, there was a couple there with an out of control Golden, the classes were their last hope, the dog had been either failed or been kicked out of every other obedience classes they tried. the retriever training classes are NOT a "feed me treats!" type class, yes treats are used, but boundrries are also required and set and tested. it didnt take long for this dog to learn the boundries of the class, this dog not only turned into a great dog, by the end of the classes he was the star of the show, far out-preforming every other dog in the class.

 

that PAT thing is a good idea, Happy has already done most of them.. she has done the elavator, she just lays beside me in the cornor..we had a caretaker walk on with us with a huge metal dolly and cabnet and Happy still just layed quitely at my feet. I have taken her into banks with me, she just stays my my side, tunks herself under the counter and pays no mind to the other people. and I have had her off leash in very crowded areas before as well(that was not exepcted however lol) but with just a heel command and a pat on my thigh she glued herself to my side, accpected but ignored people trying to touch her, stayed out of everyones way, sat when I stopped etc.. there was a summer concert thing going on that I wasnt aware of so there were crowds of people, other dogs, loud noises, music blasting, cords everywhere, crew members running around with equipment, you name it. I was very impressed with her! she cant do EVERYTHING on that test, but it doesnt matter, because she is my first choice to take anywhere precisley because even in these conditions, she is a pleasure and not an annoyence to have with me.

[desertranger]

I got the advantage of such training today. I went to Target for a few things and on my way back to the car with the basket and full hands I dropped Jin's lead. Normally at a park or somewhere else he was allowed free he would take off to play but in the parking lot with traffic, people and all he just kept walking beside me. This is not something I taught him. Tho' it is part of the test. The really cool thing was I didn't really realize I had let go of the lead until I got to the car.

[agilityrunningdogs]

I agree that the PAT test provides a great guideline for a well-behaved dog, not just in public but in life. I started Mal on it when I got him back in January, and now he is just FUN to take places. The schnauzers are a pain in the butt to go anywhere, people like them because they are cute, but I wish they would just behave and not act like loonies - and it's not like I haven't tried, they are terriers through and through. We can't go through a door or a gate without Komet screaming, it's just some weird obsession he has, he barks when he walks through doorways at home too. Strange dog.

 

Anyway, I love taking Mal places. If I'm going someplace like Home Depot that allows pets, he's coming. And while he is a more mellow, adaptable dog, I believe it was because I specifically trained to the PAT that he will lay down at my feet when I'm eating or will sit quietly with a slack lead while I'm checking out. It is such a relief to be able to walk through a crowd and not have to worry about my dog jumping on some kid, or sniffing somebody's crotch or snag some tasty something off the ground. I always smile when I see parents trying to wrangle their unruly kid and I've got my puppy walking not a hare's breadth from me.

[Caerus]

I have to admit, having the dogs drop a mouthful of tasty meat on command is a favorite party trick here. People are absolutely shocked that I can tell D to drop a steak and he will, when their dogs won't even let go of a tennis ball or a shoe. Or that he knows the difference between 'give' and 'drop' (I don't get why that is all that much more impressive than a dog knowing the difference between 'sit' and 'down'?).

They don't seem to get that it isn't magic, but training.

[desertranger]

They don't seem to get that it isn't magic, but training.

 

But didn't you know, it is magic. Other dog owners constantly comment on how well the dogs behave or "Will you train my dogs?" or Sure their dog will sit or lie down but what about a reliable recall. "Well I just don't have the time" Duh! "What do you do while you're out for a walk?" They all seem to think that it takes forever to do this or it's a once a week thing that doesn't need any other work.

 

List of excuses for not training a dog. (Add yours)

 

I don't have the time.

I don't know what to do.

He is trained (to sit)

He is trained (while pulling on leash)

He is trained (barking, growling)

[JohnLloydJones]

List of excuses for not training a dog. (Add yours)

From what I hear, the all time winner is:

He (or she) just doesn't listen to me.

[Liz P]

#1 s/he is stubborn

#2 s/he is stupid

[Maralynn]

I've actually had several people say "my dog won't do that" as if there was just no hope for their dog to learn anything.

 

I've had Kenzi for 1 month now. She knows her name and responds to it in low to mid distraction settings. She knows sit, down and speak. When we're in the house after exercise time, she chills out pretty good with my other two. Her leash walking isn't perfect, but it's vastly improved in the last month. Not bad for an 11 m/o pup. All it takes it a little effort...

[desertranger]

...and time.

 

I sometimes feel I'm not worthy enough to train the silly dog. I get frustrated when he does something I don't want him to do and when he's picked up something I don't like and I don't know how to figure out how to undo it.

 

Then he does something brilliant. It's like trying to raise an idiot savant and I'm the idiot.

[agilityrunningdogs]

Reason I hear alot: Oh, he does know how to sit, I just don't have a cookie right now.

 

Training a Border Collie is an eye-opening experience to me. The Schnauzers learn gradually, they understand bit by bit and I can see their progress; I've found Mal learns by epiphany. I worked for about 2 weeks trying to get him to weave 4 poles. I was getting incredibly frustrated because he would make random mistakes all over the place. Then, suddenly, he got it. And within 5 minutes he learned all 12. I was amazed. He doesn't get it, doesn't get it, and then it all clicks. It IS magic! He's a ton of fun because of that though. It's very exhilerating when he understands a new trick. I was playing with him earlier today and I had him do something (drop, peak etc) before I threw the ball and even though I taught him everything, I was still impressed by his vocabulary and by the fact that he knew what each of the words meant at the drop of a hat, what a stunning breed.

 

I think it's that initial period that people can't stand. They lure their dog into a sit 20 times and are confused that the dog can't sit without their hand over their head. If they hung in there, without an instructor doing it for them, I think it would revolutionize how they think of their dog - as learners, not as dumb followers.

[Mariji]

I found this thread very interesting. I have 2 borders that are to me reasonably well trained but we still have a long way to go. I see all the time when im out training in new environments people are absolutely stunned at what i ask my dogs to do that literally took me 10 minutes to shape in one session. Simple things like my girls Stop (lie down) stay, that i dont have to say stop and then say stay, im just telling them that you know sit or lie down MEANS stay, you shouldnt have to ask them again. People seem to be flabbergasted when they see Miles know her left and right better than most adults, but that is one of the easiest things i have taught her. And not to mention OMG your dogs can cover their faces with their paws, come on people it's not hard to train your dogs. I have trained more complicated sequence beahviours such as a limp, crawl, play dead and cover your face for her BANG trick. People seem to think that these dogs are extra special but no they are just metally cared for in the form of shaping sessions.

[border_collie_crazy]

but of course the "I dont have time" exuse lol, really, you dont? and yet my BFF while going to collage full time and taking care of an infant son while pregnant with another, has managed to raise puppy into a well behaved and well socalized dog at the same time. If you have time to own a dog, you have time to train one. I get it all the time with Happy "how come she doesnt run without the leash?" umm cuz I didnt give her permission too...

[desertranger]

I disagree. After 35+ years with BCs I find they are special. See my post in the gallery under "I love not talking to my dogs" I find it's easier to teach a BC to do something that my rough collie has a lot of probs with. Abby (rough collie) doesn't seem to understand a lot of things despite her being well trained. Abby will do anything she is trained to do at once. Jin on the other hand occasionally likes to argue about it or will wait before doing whatever. He is his own dog. Yes people are flabbergasted at some of his antics and tricks and like you say they don't seem to think their dogs can do that. Yes they can, it's just going to take more time to teach than it does with a BC.

[border_collie_crazy]

who are you disagreeing with? lol..my friends dog is not a BC, she is a Husky mix. I agree, BCs are special, my other dogs dont know nearly as much as my BCs, as right now I just dont have time to work that hard on parlour tricks. basic rules and polite behaviour is different, like recall, stay, sit, down, wait, watch me, stay with me, back up, heel etc.. I consider those basic to dog ownership lol. though it not just BCs..my Rough Collie mix is very similer to my BCs when it comes to training. not at all like my retriver and terrier..they are VERY different.

[desertranger]

I disagree with everybody on that because I'm otaku (japanese for obssesed) with border collies. :D

[geonni banner]

When I first adopted my Lurcher from a Greyhound rescue group, they told me with an absolutely straight face that I would not be able to train her to sit or come when called. They said it like it was the laws of physics or something. Of course I did, and in short order, and they couldn't believe it. They were all about "Oh, I wish my dog would do that!" I offered to help them - no soap. They weren't having any of that "obedience stuff. "It's cruel!" Of course, they were all for outlawing lure-coursing too. The dog might get hurt. (!)

 

Honestly, I think a lot of people are invested in having dogs that act up. They are often the "nicey-nice" type who couldn't think of saying anything that might be construed as rude or mean, even in fun. So the dog makes all the trouble for his/her passive/agressive owner.

My other favorite is the person with the dog that is nearly lame because its nails are so long. If you ask why they don't trim them they say first, "Oh, I can't afford to take her to the vet." And when I suggest that nail-clippers are fairly inexpensive it's, "Oh, nooooooo! He won't let me."

 

I freely admit it. I'm not a people-person. It's why I don't train (for money) anymore. Bring me your evil, snapping JRT or your blabbermouth of a GSD, I'm good with that. But the owner! Well, the well from which I dip patience for humans is much shallower than the one for animals... One bright spot - I'm old enough now to get away with being a curmudgeon without upsetting folks too much.

 

One of the things I love about the BC Boards is that while it is crystal-clear that the people posting here love their dogs dearly, mostly they don't seem to have lost the power of rational thought when dealing with them. It's SO REFRESHING!

[desertranger]

I got nailed by a lady owhile ut with Jin this morning. I had him running all over the place playing 4-ball (3-soccer and 1 tennis) and she flags me down telling me that I'm confusing my dog, driving him crazy and that it was cruel. She askled my why I was doing it. I told her I didn't have any sheep. I think I would be cruel if I withheld that kind of play.

[Mariji]

.

I disagree. After 35+ years with BCs I find they are special. See my post in the gallery under "I love not talking to my dogs" I find it's easier to teach a BC to do something that my rough collie has a lot of probs with. Abby (rough collie) doesn't seem to understand a lot of things despite her being well trained. Abby will do anything she is trained to do at once. Jin on the other hand occasionally likes to argue about it or will wait before doing whatever. He is his own dog. Yes people are flabbergasted at some of his antics and tricks and like you say they don't seem to think their dogs can do that. Yes they can, it's just going to take more time to teach than it does with a BC.

 

By special i mean that people think that a particular dog if just one of a kind. I had someone recently at a puppy class say that my dog was just amazing (and you know what all she did was walking to heel) she was one of a kind and you are pretty lucky to be what seemed one of those few people that get a smart dog. He couldn't be more wrong. My dogs to me are my world and are very very special. Each and everyone i have had has been my special once in a lifetime dog and i am lucky, but my girls are not the only smart ones out there. Average pet owners seem to think there are a selected few that are gifted and don't realise any dog can learn such a behaviour, it just depends on how they learn it and how long it will take them. Any dogs taught to be Operant can learn anything, regarded it may not be as quick as a border but they can still learn it. So my girls are special to me but they are not the only ones in the entire breed that can manage a good walk at heel Hope that explains what i mean. Im not always the best at explaining things.

[desertranger]

1. Average pet owners seem to think there are a selected few that are gifted and don't realise any dog can learn such a behaviour...

 

2. ...Any dogs taught to be Operant can learn anything...

 

 

1. The average pet owners has no interest in training their beyond sit, down and dinner time. It's easily seen when going to the park, the greensward or downtown for a walk on the High st. Dogs pull on leads, bark, lunge at other dogs. A guys dog runs off or want to play with Jin and Abby and he stands there screaming for his dogs to come while they ignore him. when you talk to them they say, "But they are trained." Yes they are; to eat your dog food. Too many people I talk say I don't have the time. I can think of many times over the last 35+ years when I didn't have the time to train dogs but ya wanna know something. It doesn't take that much time.

 

2. Any dog can be trained to do anything given time, love and attention whether it's OC training or the traditional methods I use. Consider the state of Jin's training at 11 mo. Better yet consider the state of training of your dogs. Most BC owners have dogs that are well trained by 6 mo.

[Mariji]

1. The average pet owners has no interest in training their beyond sit, down and dinner time. It's easily seen when going to the park, the greensward or downtown for a walk on the High st. Dogs pull on leads, bark, lunge at other dogs. A guys dog runs off or want to play with Jin and Abby and he stands there screaming for his dogs to come while they ignore him. when you talk to them they say, "But they are trained." Yes they are; to eat your dog food. Too many people I talk say I don't have the time. I can think of many times over the last 35+ years when I didn't have the time to train dogs but ya wanna know something. It doesn't take that much time.

 

2. Any dog can be trained to do anything given time, love and attention whether it's OC training or the traditional methods I use. Consider the state of Jin's training at 11 mo. Better yet consider the state of training of your dogs. Most BC owners have dogs that are well trained by 6 mo.

 

I heartily agree. General public don't know how to train or can't be bothered. I have seen many with good intentions but they just can't carry it on at home. Dogs learn 24 hours not just the 5 minutes they are being formally trained. They are reinforced by their environment for many things they do namely the bad things. I had a homestay dog staying with me a beautiful staffy, wonderful dog just was horrendous to walk. Pulling so hard i was sure he'd eventually dislocate my shoulder. I gave the owners a halti but they wouldn't accept it saying he walked fine. Some peoples definition of a trained dog sure if a lot different to mine.

 

Although i agree borders do tend to learn faster but i think it is because they are bred to work in sync with a handler or think on their own initiative, i firmly believe any dog can learn just as good. Saying that there are many variables. I've noticed people in my classes think their dogs are stupid simply because there is no relationship to work with their dog or for their dog to work with them. They cannot handle the excitement of the class and therefore can't function. There needs to be a relationship of some kind whether it is just a working one were the dog knows its serious time and it needs to work with you not against you. But all in all it is up to the owner. Majority of border collies i see everyday cannot even manage a sit because they owner cannot handle the dogs energy. Borders are beautiful and learn very quickly but many are smarter than their owners and this causes them to get extremely bored and they become very obsessive. I cannot stand obsessive collies. Many say it is the breed, but i believe it is the training. If enough time is spent with your dog it will not become so badly motion sensitive and obsessive. Sadly sometimes it is very hard for owners with very high drive dogs to control this. So far i have managed to control any and all obsessive/sensitive behaviours and *fingers crossed* i will be able to continue controlling it.

[Root Beer]

General public don't know how to train or can't be bothered. I have seen many with good intentions but they just can't carry it on at home.

 

I believe that a big part of the problem is the general structure of the average beginner training class. Dogs tend to be cycled through as if all learn the same way and at the same pace. And, even more important, new handlers are cycled through as if all learn the same way and at the same pace.

 

For instance, I am often surprised - in later level training classes - that there are many people who go through an intro or basic class and have no real idea of how to effectively reinforce their dogs for correct responses! It's not really surprising that they end up with dogs yanging on their leashes, paying more attention to the environment than their persons!

 

Most intro classes (and yes, there are exceptions) do not teach new handlers how to pay attention to what their dogs are doing while in class and training, how to read their dog's responses to the environment and to the training process itself, how to choose an appropriate reinforcer and when to deliver reinforcement to the dog, and how to implement smart management to use while the dog is in the training process and has not yet fully learned certain skills. And most intro classes don't take into account that there are people who need more than six or seven or eight weeks to master the skills needed to train a dog well. There are new people who breeze through intro classes and never have a single issue again. There are many who could simply use more time and instruction themesleves (as opposed to the dog being the "problem" all the time) to learn how to train smarter and more effectively.

 

Some would say that the average pet owner isn't capable of those things, but I believe that the vast majority are. I think that the general structure of most introductory level training classes does not provide the kind of instruction it would take, but I do believe that it can be done.

 

Some peoples definition of a trained dog sure if a lot different to mine.

 

True! Back when we first adopted Sammie, I considered him fully trained because he could sit on cue and give paw. At that time, that's what I considered training. It never even occurred to me that I could use training to help him learn not to bolt out the door every time we opened it! I figued (again, at the time) that because he pulled on his leash, that could never change. He was just a "puller".

 

Looking back that seems completely silly, but I didn't know what I didn't know.

 

I am grateful that I got into training with Speedy. It has led me into an entirely new way of life. But before that I had no idea what was possible for a regular pet dog.

[desertranger]

Most intro classes (and yes, there are exceptions) do not teach new handlers how to pay attention to what their dogs are doing while in class and training, how to read their dog's responses to the environment and to the training process itself, how to choose an appropriate reinforcer and when to deliver reinforcement to the dog, and how to implement smart management to use while the dog is in the training process and has not yet fully learned certain skills. And most intro classes don't take into account that there are people who need more than six or seven or eight weeks to master the skills needed to train a dog well. There are new people who breeze through intro classes and never have a single issue again. There are many who could simply use more time and instruction themesleves (as opposed to the dog being the "problem" all the time) to learn how to train smarter and more effectively.

 

Jin has been to 4 OB classes. 1 Petsmart, a demo class from Bark Busters and training with Dreamdogs the only person 0out here who actually has a degree in wilidlife and exotic animal training. store classesl Here are my xperiences with each.

 

Petsmart had an instructor who owned a therapy dog trained by someone else. She was trained by the corporate trainer and was so enamored with Jin that we never really got anything done. He did get his instructions but I had to really work with him on them at home. Bark Busters said they have a "liftime guarantee" that would break Abby of her incessant barking. I tried it. That's when I learned Bark Busters is spelled F A I L. They had no luck with Abby and when I tried to claim the guarantee they tried to back out. I told them I have a written guarantee and with some arguing I got them to refund my money. BBs website says they can teach anyone this technique. Copying their technique with Abby I found out that BB technique is also spelled F A I L.

 

Jin was finally trained at Dreamdogs. They not only spent time with the dogs but with the handlers as well. Showing them where they were doing wrong and how to overcome problems. I was allowed to ask questions and stay after class a bit to talk to Lori the instructor. They also recommended diff harnesses, halters, etc. These are classes I would like to continue but can't afford.

 

The people who attended these classes pay attention and perhaps spend a few minutes working with their dogs each day rather then to continue the training whenever they interact with the dog. I find sitting in front of the TV I can give Jin a lot of instruction. Sitting by my computer I can give him instruction, in fact I can give him instruction at anytime and place, all after all an individual lessons doesn't take more than 5-10 mins a few times a day plus doing it during your outings.

 

Whatever the answer is it's going to get worse because the latest trend is among the elderly who live alone is to want a companion. Unfortunately they go to pet shops to buy pets and frankly I think a pet shop is the wrong place to buy a pet.