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Mia and Lucy


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Just wanted to put up my experience from the other week.

 

Mia (my dog) and Lucy are both nervous and a little reactive. When I first got Mia she would bark and lunge at a dog shape on the horizon

 

Lucy is a good friend of Ben's (my other dog) and I get on well with her owner so we decided it would be best if we could train the dogs to tolerate each other

 

Lucys training

If she barked or growled or looked sideways at Mia she was punished by being hit, yelled at and then dragged inside and shut in the kitchen

 

Result was Lucy kept out of the way of Mia and was quiet within about a week of this treatment - and so her owner felt it safe to leave Lucy offlead to play with Ben when we were walking about.

 

Mias training

I dont punish dogs for showing fear. I trained a default sit position for whenever I stopped or the lead got tight, I rewarded her or being calm when Lucy was in sight and Lucys owner fed her lots of treats whenever she came over

 

Everyone thought I was totaly stupid for treating a dog with 'agression problems' I should show her 'who the boss is'

 

Anyway

Its been about 9 months of this training. A week past Wed I was walking my pair and Lucy and her owner came into the park.

Mia seen them comming and sat with her tail wagging waiting for her treat - she was still kept onlead all the time around Lucy

Lucy was sculking out keeping out of the way of Mia

 

We were walking around chatting and Mia stopped to sniff a patch of ground

another dog who she knows v well, storm, came up behind her to sniff the grass too. She obviously didnt hear him coming and totaly jumped off the floor and whipped round and barked in his face. He being the gent he was took a step back and turned his head away in a v nice doggy 'sorry' and Mia saw who he was and stepped back too

(I saw all this because I was watching it all - I didnt take action because it was over straight away and no malice intended)

But

Silently and without warning Lucy jumped Mia from behind (me has a large puncture wound on her back by her tail) pushed her on her back and begain attacking her

Thankfully storms owner managed to pull Lucy off. Blood was gushing from Mias mouth and she was limping badly

 

She needed surgery to remove her bottom canine tooth as it had been badly bashed out of place

 

Moral of the tale (and my mistake - I should have realised this and kept away from Lucy) although Lucy no longer made any noise when Mia was about she wanst happy having Mia around her - it was just all her warnings had been supressed by punishment. She was totaly jumpy having her about and so a change in behaviour that made her even more nervous left her with no choice of warning any of us that she was unhappy, her only option left to her was to jump in on the attack, and attack hard

 

The even sadder thing is Lucy was punnished even worse and the story going about is that Mia attacked Storm and Lucy was defending him

I have also been asked many times if I think the attack will have calmed Mia down any now she has been shown who the boss is

It really makes me cry that people missunderstand dogs so much, thinking timid scared dogs need 'put in their place' a vicious attack is a valid training tool and noone could see how much better she was BEFORE the attack - and how it is going to take months to build that trust back up again

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(((hugs))) - Been there! I'm so sorry you're dealing with both an injured dog and nasty rumors about the whole deal. I find it appalling that Lucy's owner is so nonchalant about laying blame where it doesn't belong *and* spreading it. Is there any way Storm's owner(s) can help refute the lies??

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Lucy's owner needs to manage her dog's aggression in a better manner. As you've said, hitting for this type of behavior doesn't work. Separation does...in a calm manner. If the dog can't tolerate other dogs, than she can't tolerate them, period and no amount of training will take that out of her, especially if she's an older dog. Her owner has no business turning her loose around a pack of dogs. You didn't say the breed of dogs, but non-BCs can often feel threatened by BCs in very subtle ways.

 

Brodie, Robin's brother, is on the fearful side and tends to bark and lunge at other dogs because of it. He's slowly learning to tolerate other dogs but he's allowed a circle of four feet personal space - the rule in the AKC show ring by the way. He's in one obedience class with two other pups -- an Aussie and a German Shepherd. The Aussie is typical and he and the German Shepherd pup are afraid of her...there's no off lead bouncing around and playing with that little lass. He'll go to the next level class to be exposed to a larger crowd of different types of dogs, but again, no free play. There's no point in it and if I were to allow it, someone or a dog, will eventually get hurt, as your experience demonstrates.

 

Liz

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If the dog can't tolerate other dogs, than she can't tolerate them, period and no amount of training will take that out of her, especially if she's an older dog.

 

Gotta disagree with this. Some dogs maybe will never be completely happy/tolerant around other dogs, but I would guess many of them could with the right training. I'm not talking about becoming a dog who has fun going to a dog park, but a dog who can relax and not worry about the dogs around them.

 

Kipp is dog aggressive to every dog we come across except Missy. It's based in insecurity - basically he doesn't know how to handle it so he turns into cujo. We've haven't made much progress in the past as I don't have access to other dogs that much. With Kenzi that's changed. So right now I'm rotating the two of them. I'll bring them out together in a calm situation and heavily reward both of the for calm behavior - a couple times I've just sat on the floor with a bowl full of kibble and a dog on either side and doled out piece after piece of kibble for laying calmly. I also have a pocket full of kibble in the house. I'll rotate them in and out of the crate and reward Kipp for calmly checking out a crated Kenzi or focusing on me and ignoring her altogether.

 

When we're outside I make sure I'm actively doing something with the dogs - as long as there is a ball or frisbee to focus on Kipp will choose to do that and not worry about Kenzi.

 

After 2 weeks of this Kipp is much more relaxed about Kenzi - the first couple of days he was slightly frantic trying to figure her out. Instead of going "cujo" at her crate he can now walk by with a sniff or even ignore her. The same when she's loose in the house. He stills runs up and barks at her or tires to nip on occasion her when we're outside, but you can tell he's not feeling the pressure he did at first. Now I can tell him to knock it off or leave it and he does. I can call him to me and redirect as well.

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Thanks guys

Both Lucy and Storm are Border Collies too. Lucy and Mia are both too similar, scared and a bit reactive

To be fair Lucys owner wasnt too bad - she has been so sorry - its Storms owner and some of the other owners in the area

In a way its working out fine cos the dafties are keeping their dogs away from me so I get the chance to work with Mia without having to worry about people walking right up to us

 

I am glad to say I am proof positive that dogs that seemed to hate each other can get on fine - Mia HATED Ben, but over time it turned out it was just fear and lack of confidence - now she has learnt that all is good and she is safe with Ben I have got to the stage where I can drop high value treats on the floor and they happily share - infact if i accidently drop just one treat Mia (who was a stray and v food aggressive) Mia lets Ben get the treat and she just grins up at me licking her lips waiting for me to get her a treat

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Gotta disagree with this. Some dogs maybe will never be completely happy/tolerant around other dogs, but I would guess many of them could with the right training. I'm not talking about becoming a dog who has fun going to a dog park, but a dog who can relax and not worry about the dogs around them.

 

Kipp is dog aggressive to every dog we come across except Missy. It's based in insecurity - basically he doesn't know how to handle it so he turns into cujo. We've haven't made much progress in the past as I don't have access to other dogs that much. With Kenzi that's changed. So right now I'm rotating the two of them. I'll bring them out together in a calm situation and heavily reward both of the for calm behavior - a couple times I've just sat on the floor with a bowl full of kibble and a dog on either side and doled out piece after piece of kibble for laying calmly. I also have a pocket full of kibble in the house. I'll rotate them in and out of the crate and reward Kipp for calmly checking out a crated Kenzi or focusing on me and ignoring her altogether.

 

When we're outside I make sure I'm actively doing something with the dogs - as long as there is a ball or frisbee to focus on Kipp will choose to do that and not worry about Kenzi.

 

After 2 weeks of this Kipp is much more relaxed about Kenzi - the first couple of days he was slightly frantic trying to figure her out. Instead of going "cujo" at her crate he can now walk by with a sniff or even ignore her. The same when she's loose in the house. He stills runs up and barks at her or tires to nip on occasion her when we're outside, but you can tell he's not feeling the pressure he did at first. Now I can tell him to knock it off or leave it and he does. I can call him to me and redirect as well.

 

Yes, you can teach dogs who are strangers to tolerate each other in the house over time. Ladybug won't tolerate strange dogs but if she knows they "belong" -- like the pups, she likes them just fine. She and Scotty got on well after a period of adjustment that is similar to what you described. It took them about a month to work out the "rules" by which they would live together.

 

Maybe its because I live in the country and have more than one dog so they get a social outlet, but I just don't see the value in training two dogs that don't live together and normally wouldn't socialize to get along...other than the reward of accomplishment, what's the point of doing it? There have been many many posts here about situations gone awry in dog parks either with people or other dogs that aren't under control. What I am aiming for with my dogs is tolerance...yeah, there's another dog so what attitude...and I am very alert. If I have the dogs in town and someone comes charging at me with their dog, I firmly ask them to back away. For one thing, there's health reasons to keep your own animals separate from others.

 

This week is just another step in development. The pack order is shaking up with the arrival of hormones...with a little work, order will be restored and you're right...separation is key. There is no need for all of them to be charging around together every minute of the day. That's when they get bored and in trouble. When I let them out for a romp, as soon as I see trouble brewing, one or both comes back in and like yours, they've figured it out.

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Gotta disagree with this. Some dogs maybe will never be completely happy/tolerant around other dogs, but I would guess many of them could with the right training. I'm not talking about becoming a dog who has fun going to a dog park, but a dog who can relax and not worry about the dogs around them.

 

I agree that dogs can learn to tolerate SPECIFIC other dogs. My dog has certain dogs he absolutely loves, and other dogs he happily tolerates because their owners are treat-bearers, and still other dogs he just tolerates because he's used to being around them. I haven't yet met a dog I couldn't get Buddy to tolerate, given enough time and gentle exposure.

 

But, I think it's really difficult to get a reactive or fearful dog to generalize this idea so that he tolerates DOGS. My boy doesn't like strange dogs in his face. Early on, I worked a lot on training and desensitization, but I could never be certain that a new dog wouldn't be that 1 in 10 that Buddy reacts strongly to. So, I always request that owners keep their dogs out of Buddy's little "personal space" bubble of 18 inches or so. He's utterly calm and content with that much room, but if that room disappears, he hits threshold very quickly. Honestly, it's not worth it to me, risking an incident, a snap or puncture wound to another dog, PLUS the reinforcement that the reactive behavior gives. I would much rather Buddy just not be forced into situations where he might go over threshold. (I've ranted before about this... but it's the stupid owners with the "friendly" dogs who are the biggest challenge, because they let their dogs charge everyone, and my dog reacts, which reinforces both his fear and his "successful" behavior of driving the others away.)

 

In a perfect world with an infinite supply of new dogs with clued-in owners, I might be able to lower Buddy's reactivity when meeting new dogs. He's learned to be much more trusting (though never fully trusting) of humans in his space. It's just not that kind of a world, so I can't guarantee only good dog interactions for Buddy. He's never going to be a boundy, playful, let's rock-and-roll kind of dog.

 

Mary

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I agree that dogs can learn to tolerate SPECIFIC other dogs. My dog has certain dogs he absolutely loves, and other dogs he happily tolerates because their owners are treat-bearers, and still other dogs he just tolerates because he's used to being around them. I haven't yet met a dog I couldn't get Buddy to tolerate, given enough time and gentle exposure.

 

But, I think it's really difficult to get a reactive or fearful dog to generalize this idea so that he tolerates DOGS. My boy doesn't like strange dogs in his face. Early on, I worked a lot on training and desensitization, but I could never be certain that a new dog wouldn't be that 1 in 10 that Buddy reacts strongly to. So, I always request that owners keep their dogs out of Buddy's little "personal space" bubble of 18 inches or so. He's utterly calm and content with that much room, but if that room disappears, he hits threshold very quickly. Honestly, it's not worth it to me, risking an incident, a snap or puncture wound to another dog, PLUS the reinforcement that the reactive behavior gives. I would much rather Buddy just not be forced into situations where he might go over threshold. (I've ranted before about this... but it's the stupid owners with the "friendly" dogs who are the biggest challenge, because they let their dogs charge everyone, and my dog reacts, which reinforces both his fear and his "successful" behavior of driving the others away.)

 

In a perfect world with an infinite supply of new dogs with clued-in owners, I might be able to lower Buddy's reactivity when meeting new dogs. He's learned to be much more trusting (though never fully trusting) of humans in his space. It's just not that kind of a world, so I can't guarantee only good dog interactions for Buddy. He's never going to be a boundy, playful, let's rock-and-roll kind of dog.

 

Mary

 

I agree -- even the canine good citizen test allows for a distance of about four feet -- dog owner owner dog line-up. Like people, dogs don't have to like everyone they meet and they don't need to tolerate invasions into personal space (we've all met that particular person who can't get close enough to us ) but they do need to learn to control their reactions. I'll be perfectly happy if Brodie never plays with a strange dog in his life but he's got to learn to be around them without reacting with fear, lunging, and barking, in the event he does go to sheepdog trials next year. Perhaps in a situation with something he's really attracted to to focus on, he won't be so worried about the other dogs?

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Maybe its because I live in the country and have more than one dog so they get a social outlet, but I just don't see the value in training two dogs that don't live together and normally wouldn't socialize to get along...other than the reward of accomplishment, what's the point of doing it?

 

I'll be perfectly happy if Brodie never plays with a strange dog in his life but he's got to learn to be around them without reacting with fear, lunging, and barking, in the event he does go to sheepdog trials next year.

 

I think I get what you're saying (tolerance is required but being buddy-buddy isn't needed), and I would agree with that on a general level. But I also think the social outlet provided by other dogs in the pack serves a very different function, especially for a young pup, than what you get from successfully meeting strange dogs. For pups, socialization to new stimuli is very important before they become too set in their ways, especially if the intolerence is based in fear (pups go through several transitory fear periods as they develop). I personally wanted to do whatever I could to keep Odin unfearful and polite around other dogs because we are around strange dogs constantly, living in an urban area (just as I am constantly around strange people!).

 

Dogs in the same pack have a much different dynamic than the dynamic that results from meeting a new dog. I do think it can be hard for dogs to generalize, but I also think you increase your chances of having a "generally" calmer and less fearful dog who is more easily managed in public, at the vets, and at dog events if you don't avoid socialization opportunities when the dog is young and not set in his ways (as Buddy was when Mary rescued him). In this respect you may be running out of time!

 

I also think it could really help if you ever found a dog Brodie *could* be buddy-buddy with, which I would never expect to happen immediately with any dog and Brodie ( a couples meets may well be required before play could ever happen, but maybe not?) I guess I think this because it makes logical sense to me that if a dog has has actually positive, fun experiences with other dogs outside the pack, then that might contribute to less of an anxiety. I don't like crowds and typically am not into socializing with strangers, but I'm sure I'd be even more anxious about it if I'd never had a good experience meeting someone outside my own family! I'd think a very submissive, friendly, not-fearful dog, with good manners, who is smaller than him and of the opposite sex would be a good candidate. JMO.

 

@Pammyd, so sorry to hear of the attack. I fully agree with YOUR strategy on how to handle the fear aggression, and your reading of the events makes a lot of sense to me. Hope it's not too much of a setback for poor Mia!

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I think I get what you're saying (tolerance is required but being buddy-buddy isn't needed), and I would agree with that on a general level. But I also think the social outlet provided by other dogs in the pack serves a very different function, especially for a young pup, than what you get from successfully meeting strange dogs. For pups, socialization to new stimuli is very important before they become too set in their ways, especially if the intolerence is based in fear (pups go through several transitory fear periods as they develop). I personally wanted to do whatever I could to keep Odin unfearful and polite around other dogs because we are around strange dogs constantly, living in an urban area (just as I am constantly around strange people!).

 

Dogs in the same pack have a much different dynamic than the dynamic that results from meeting a new dog. I do think it can be hard for dogs to generalize, but I also think you increase your chances of having a "generally" calmer and less fearful dog who is more easily managed in public, at the vets, and at dog events if you don't avoid socialization opportunities when the dog is young and not set in his ways (as Buddy was when Mary rescued him). In this respect you may be running out of time!

 

I also think it could really help if you ever found a dog Brodie *could* be buddy-buddy with, which I would never expect to happen immediately with any dog and Brodie ( a couples meets may well be required before play could ever happen, but maybe not?) I guess I think this because it makes logical sense to me that if a dog has has actually positive, fun experiences with other dogs outside the pack, then that might contribute to less of an anxiety. I don't like crowds and typically am not into socializing with strangers, but I'm sure I'd be even more anxious about it if I'd never had a good experience meeting someone outside my own family! I'd think a very submissive, friendly, not-fearful dog, with good manners, who is smaller than him and of the opposite sex would be a good candidate. JMO.

 

@Pammyd, so sorry to hear of the attack. I fully agree with YOUR strategy on how to handle the fear aggression, and your reading of the events makes a lot of sense to me. Hope it's not too much of a setback for poor Mia!

 

 

Agree to all of the above....I do want Brodie polite and unfearful and Brodie does need to build confidence and tolerate other dogs if he is to be out in public, work sheep, and generally be a good dog, which is why we are suffering through the AKC obedience classes....he really did very well after being run over by the Aussie the first week while sitting in a corner and we will take another basic obedience class, one with hopefully more than two other pups. The nicest part of this class is that he is getting used to children, which he also had a problem with right from the beginning. He snuggled up to a very shy little boy whose parents bring him to train a German Shepherd female who is also being terrorized by that Aussie. (That Aussie is in the centerfold of The Dog Whisperer's current magazine issue, along with a couple of her litter mates).

 

Underlying Brodie's anxiety is, I think, a very strong "urge to herd" that needs to be directed. Once he gets some of that urge out, he'll be much better. If I thought it would help, I'd take him over and let him work with his mother, but she doesn't like anyone else doing her job so he'll have to wait until spring when we can take some lessons.

 

Meanwhile, I'll have to take another class to get exposure. Working at learning something takes the edge off because he has something to think about besides the other dogs.

 

The only other dog people I know who don't own working border collie males (besides his mother) are my husband's niece's goofy Newfoundlands that lack training and somehow I don't think that would help as Brodie is smaller than the average 12 week old Newfie pup! :rolleyes:. Though, come to think of it, we met a very nice Newfoundland coming out of the handler class and Brodie was very good with her, again from the four foot distance. The handler knew what she was doing and I warned her that Brodie was reactive so we handled it very gently and easily and it worked out fine. My husband's other niece does have a female Scotch collie that is on the small side but she's blind in one eye and a bit touchy herself. I could also call the rescue person who owns his father and see what we could do there, but she's more than an hour away.

 

What I need to find for one good experience for Brodie is a nice, friendly beagle....:D.

 

 

Have a good day.

 

Liz

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Thanks guys

Well the good news is today we were out and Storm came along and she was bouncy wanting to meet him

A little more subdued than she used to be with him but at least she wanted to say hello

Then some of the kids in the street came in with their 4 month old pup they were wanting to socalise

I held back and we let Storm have a sniff, then I sent Ben over (we have a 'go see' command - it makes Mia calmer if I can send Ben to say hello) and then I was going to just walk away but Mia was crying and wagging her tail to meet the pup so I walked over (on a short lead)

She was fab - so gentle with him but still crazy puppy playing - I am so happy

 

Since having Mia I have had a big think about how many doggy friends a dog needs - when Ben was a pup I pretty much let him say hello to every dog I could find, with Mia I am more wanting to work on her just being calm with dogs that might be around, not forcing her to say hello

Actually she does have quite a lot of doggy friends now I come to think of it :rolleyes:

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Re: the original post--I am so sorry!!!!! I know exactly how you feel and hate hate hate that so many people use super-confrontational and physical punishment-based training methods. I wish I could make like a billion copies of articles like these:

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/...90217141540.htm

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/...90521112711.htm

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/ima..._Statements.pdf

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/ima...20statement.pdf

 

 

and send them to all dog owners everywhere anonymously. Poor Lucy for her owner not being able to understand what fear aggression is. I wish someone would educate her. Keep Mia away from all of them I say! I'm glad she's going to be okay.

 

Re: your update--how awesome that she hasn't generalized and is still dog friendly. Kudos to you for all the wonderful work you put into your dog!

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