Eileen's Question

[Root Beer]

What's interesting to me as a newer bc owner is the fact that there are very rarely border collies out there that can succesfuly compete in more than one venue and be succesful on the herding trial field and an AKC herding championship does not count. I am talking about the ultimate test of a stockdog, an USBCHA open course. Now this could largely be the fact that most owners/trainers who compete in agility/obedience/flyball don't have the interest in training to that level.

 

In addition to interest, consider the time commitment. One would probably not be able to hold down a full time job and do justice to training a dog to truly excel in such different disciplines. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it would definitely take someone quite extra-ordinary.

 

Even training three dogs for two different sports (two Agility, one Freestyle), I spread myself too thin. If I were only training one dog for one discipline, I would probably achieve a lot more "success" in that discipline. I define success a bit differently for myself and my dogs, so I do consider what my dogs and I have achieved as major success, but I mean in the more obvious sense.

 

There is so much more to training a successful competition sport dog than meets the eye. If it were just teaching behaviors, it would be easy, but that's just the tip of the iceberg. And as the dog develops and ages, it takes even more work. Now that two of my sport dogs are seniors, I have to carve out extra time to do fitness work with them in addition to their normal training.

 

I'm not complaining - I love it! But it's a challenge fitting it all in with a full time job, a home to maintain, and a regular life outside of dogs.

 

For instance in obedience the dog, especially for heeling, needs to be comfortable with being right in your space, to be not only be attentive and responsive but to be looking at you ALOT! When working stock it is important that the dog work with it's handler and respon to commands but independent thought on the part of the dog seems to be a huge need and asset. The dog cannot be constantly looking to it's handler to guide him, and certainly not looking at them!

 

I'm not so sure that this is as big of an issue as it seems to be - especially for a Border Collie. Most dogs know when they are heeling, and give attention as they have been trained to give while heeling, and when they are doing something else they don't. There are A LOT of successful Agility dogs who have studied Obedience. Those dogs sure aren't giving Obedience attention when they are running an Agility course. If they did, they would be crashing into things!!

 

Obedience dogs don't go through their normal day to day lives staring at their handlers all the time. They play, they sniff, they look around at the world. In short, when they aren't doing Obedience, they aren't acting like they are doing Obedience. They are normal dogs doing normal dog things.

 

On a Rally course, Speedy can go all the way through without taking his eyes off of me once. When I take him for a leash walk down the street, he glances at me naturally from time to time, but does not stare into my face the whole time. He knows the difference. I think most dogs are smart enough to know the difference.

 

Pups being trained for sports are started off learning to tug, to be close to you to "watch" you. From what I have learned at herding clinics from many "big hats" is that they encourage the exact opposite from puppyhood. To teach the pup mostly to respect there space, not to say they don't want the pup to develop a good working relationship with them it's just very different. Just some observations on my part I guess.

 

Well, it makes sense that dogs who are going to be involved in different activities will start to learn different skills as puppies. I'm not into the "watch me" stuff anymore, but yes, any puppy I raise will learn to tug, to walk on unfamiliar surfaces, to run away from me and call back on cue, to be operant (for clicker shaping), to put paws up on me and take paws off on cue, etc, etc. - all skills that we will use when the puppy begins formal sport training.

 

I would expect that the owner of a puppy who will be a stockdog would foster different skills in the puppy. The dogs will need very distinct skills in adulthood.

 

It really makes a lot of sense to me that dogs who excel in one discipline or other are not doing a lot of serious cross training. To me it's really a matter of practicality.

[shysheperdess]

I guess I should add that my thoughts on this matter come from my won personal short experience with me bc. And granted all dogs are different and handle pressure differently. But I started in competitive obedience/agility with my pup and found our stockwork does suffer some now. My bc is always watching me, looking at me ofr direction even though he knows his commands. He "sucks" into me when stressed when he can't take the pressure and other behaviors similar to these. My trainer and ALOT of well repsected clinicians who are succesful sheepdog trainers/handlers have told me alot of it has to do with me encouraging that "attentiveness" to me in the beginning, including tugging and encouraging him to watch me, be in my space, that sort of a thing. Now my dog may have exibited these problems anyway, it's hard to know, but what they are saying makes sense I guess.

 

And, Root Beer, I totally understand the time thing!!! If only we had as much time as we all wanted to spend working our dogs! But out of ALL the dual trainers out there, and there are many that have plenty of time on there hands, I have yet to see anybody who can run an agility course well and run a USBCHA open course. Not saying that there aren't dogs who might be capable of it, just recognizing that there is a huge vast difference in the skills necessary to do both tasks and a totally different approach to training both. Not to mention fostering the young dog that will eventually compete, and encouraging different things.

[Root Beer]

I guess I should add that my thoughts on this matter come from my won personal short experience with me bc. And granted all dogs are different and handle pressure differently. But I started in competitive obedience/agility with my pup and found our stockwork does suffer some now. My bc is always watching me, looking at me ofr direction even though he knows his commands. He "sucks" into me when stressed when he can't take the pressure and other behaviors similar to these. My trainer and ALOT of well repsected clinicians who are succesful sheepdog trainers/handlers have told me alot of it has to do with me encouraging that "attentiveness" to me in the beginning, including tugging and encouraging him to watch me, be in my space, that sort of a thing. Now my dog may have exibited these problems anyway, it's hard to know, but what they are saying makes sense I guess.

 

There could definitely be an element of strongly trained defaults coming out when the dog is stressed. That's not so much a training issue as a temperament issue, but it does manifest as the dog "doing" something that has been heavily rewarded when stressed.

 

Your dog may not have defaulted to running to you had you not done the attention work, but he still may have done something that you wouldn't have liked under stress - disconnecting altogether, running away to hide, etc. Personally, I'd rather have a dog who runs to me when he's worried about something, but I don't do stockwork, so my preferences are probably very different from those particular clinicians.

 

Not saying that there aren't dogs who might be capable of it, just recognizing that there is a huge vast difference in the skills necessary to do both tasks and a totally different approach to training both. Not to mention fostering the young dog that will eventually compete, and encouraging different things.

 

I would agree. Based on what I've read on the boards, I could probably list 50 skills that I would foster in a puppy that I plan to do sports with that would leave a lot of stockdog folks thinking, "why on earth would she want her dog to do that?" LOL!!

 

OK, maybe not 50, but a whole bunch. Maybe 50, though. Who knows?

[Freeman 101]

I think what gets confusing on these board, and any boards, is terminology. We all have different ideas of what a particular word means.

 

Example:

 

 

Clicker Training: are we speaking about using a marker in training?

 

Clicker Training: are we meaning positive reinforcement training?

 

Agility trainers = clicker trainers?

 

agility trainers = purely positive trainers?

 

 

positive trainers = *purely* positive trainers (which I think seldom exist).

 

pressure: dog moving away when handler moves into dog's space

pressure: dog not falling apart in the face of stressors

 

There are many agility training techniques (handling styles, teaching styles).

The majority of people I know do not use a clicker in the majority of their agility training, they do, however, use a verbal marker.

 

 

I have the feeling that the stock dog community has the same issues that the agility community has. There are many, many views on how dogs should be trained.

[Ooky]

Some of the descriptions of dogs in this thread remind me of mine - particularly the dogs taught clicker training and then moved to sheep.

 

I'm not positive only, but I HATE physically correcting an animal and have learned over the past year that even when I make up my mind that it won't kill him and I really need to learn how to do it, I can't bring myself to keep it up. I feel mean, ineffective, and like I'm just confusing both of us. So, I "fall back" on c/t a lot because I find it a very easy way for both of us to communicate.

 

The first stock trainer I took my dog to is very much a hard trainer, used to a hard, very talented working line of kelpies. In retrospect, given what he'd been brought up like, Odin did quite well with her, and did take her corrections pretty well in the moment (i.e., she would correct and he would take it well and try something else, but then at other seemingly random times "wig out", also not much mental stamina). She likes to set up dogs to fail so then she will have a chance to correct, she said as much herself. But getting harshly corrected approximately every 30 seconds, plus alpha rolled, plus corrections training for me, and being set up in all the situations designed to make him fail so he could be corrected was apparently stressful for my dog. I thought this was how stockdog training had to go, so I was not exactly happy when he seemed impudent at times with both of us during this process, or when he had little breakdowns.

 

I've gone to a different trainer now, a USBCHA open-level trailer who I think reads border collies better, and even though he is all for some of the same corrections as my previous trainer, when the dog warrants it, the difference was that this person did not bring a given training method to my dog. He watched my dog, saw that all he wanted to do was work with us to bring the sheep, and was quiet and encouraging with Odin - I think what you all mean when you say "let the dog work". He did SO much better, in terms of a complete lack of undesireable behaviors, had a stellar attitude, and progressed a LOT in just a couple of sessions. From a small pen to a field, from four very dog broke sheep to about 10 light ones, including one very "squirrelly" sheep whom Odin naturally knew to work to (thus demostrating his head was way more in the game and he was "seeing" the sheep better).

 

After this thread, I wonder if my personality/chosen training methods haven't done this to him. What if he had grown up in my first trainer's kennels? How much of a different dog would he be? Would he thrive on hard, hard methods? Or would he still be how he is, which is apparently quite responsive under a bit of quiet, occasional encouragement, and soft voice corrections to help refine natural movements he already takes. Will he be a worse sheepdog in the end for the way I've raised him? He absolutely does know about "no" and about rules and expectations, so I don't think he's analogous to the spoiled children brought up in this conversation. I give lots of mild verbal corrections/light leash "flicks" to which he responds very well.

 

I DO know that c/t and a mainly positive approach has given us really nicely nuanced communication between the two of us, that the new USBCHA trainer commented on, too. I'd like to think these methods have *mainly* enhanced that part of him that seeks out and enjoys working WITH me, but instead have they formed a dog who can't take "normal" stock training pressure? I personally don't think so, but what I know would fill a thimble! So far, he was a much, much more talented and useful dog when being handled "gently". It's definitely interesting to think about!

[Root Beer]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I can clarify what I mean!!

 

Clicker Training - a method of training that uses the click of a clicker to mark behaviors and is always followed by a reinforcer that is very important to the dog (treats, toys, a chance to do something that he or she wants to do, etc.)

 

When I refer to clicker training, that incorporates both lure/click to teach a dog a new behavior and the process of shaping.

 

I don't necessarily mean 100% reinforcement based training when I say clicker training. Some clicker trainers use non-reward markers, and some even stronger forms of correction. The merits of this are debated hotly among clicker trainers, although most use very minimal correction if any at all.

 

Reinforcement Training - (aka "positive training", althought that really is a misnomer). The use of reward, reinforcement to teach a dog new behaviors and concepts, and to motivate the dog to learn.

 

Agility Trainers - those who train their dogs to participate in the sport of Agility. Usually to compete, but sometimes just for fun. There is a very wide spectrum of training methods used by Agility Trainers - most of these are hotly debated among Agility Trainers, so for me any training method associated with "Agility Trainers" would have to be specified.

 

"Positive" Trainers - A commonly used term to describe those who use Reinforcement Training only to teach their dogs. We aren't as rare as some may think and we also don't let our dogs run amok in the world doing whatever they please!! ( ) This term is a misnomer, but people will stop calling stockwork "herding" before people stop calling Reinforcement Only Training "positive". Argh!

 

Pressure - I use this much as we use it in human terms. Pressure might come from the handler or the situation. Pressure would be, by definition, unpleasant to the dog. Pressure might include stepping into the dog in an imposing sort of way (something I don't choose to do) or pushing the dog to do something that is causing the dog stress. I wouldn't consider just being in the dog's path or in a space that the dog might go into by mistake pressure.

 

I have the feeling that the stock dog community has the same issues that the agility community has. There are many, many views on how dogs should be trained.

 

Just from a casual perusal of the working section of the board, I would say there are!!

[Caerus]

I think discussions like this one are very interesting and informative.

 

Put a dog or pup in a paddock with agility equipment - will it scoot through the tunnel and out the other end? Will it weave? Will it choose to cross the teeter, dog walk, or a-frame (I know it might but how likely is it without any encouragement?)? Will it jump the jumps, or go around or under? While an agility course employs natural physical movements (running, jumping, turning, and so on), for a dog/pup to select to "do" any of the obstacles on its own and with no prior training or enticement, is highly unlikely and most likely due to an interest in investigating something "novel". Unnatural.

 

When my D was a pup we would go to the local dog park. Never saw another dog there, but it was great for exercise since it was 2 acres with a big pond, lots of toys, and a smallish agility course. He was too young to do agility obstacles, so I never even paid attention to the course. D, on the other hand, thought that the dog walk was great fun! He also played on the a-frame and in the tunnels every now and then. I would actually distract him from it, because I didn't want him to mess up his funky hips even more. The first time I'm sure it was because the course was novel, but I believe that after that he just enjoyed doing it.

 

Not that I disagree with you. Watching a young dog meeting sheep for the first time and watching their instinct kicking in a very cool thing. Thankfully, we have the best of both worlds, with agility classes for both dogs every week, and stockwork a few times a month. No competing for us though.

[Caroline Reichard]

Pressure - I use this much as we use it in human terms. Pressure might come from the handler or the situation. Pressure would be, by definition, unpleasant to the dog. Pressure might include stepping into the dog in an imposing sort of way (something I don't choose to do) or pushing the dog to do something that is causing the dog stress. I wouldn't consider just being in the dog's path or in a space that the dog might go into by mistake pressure.

Just from a casual perusal of the working section of the board, I would say there are!!

 

Hi Kristine,

 

I liked all of your definitions except this one. Why would pressure by, by definition, unpleasant? The best human performers seem to do their best work there. Consider Olympic athletes for whom the pressure of competition creates the conditions under which world records are made. Think of Tiger Woods; all that money riding on a single putt. Many people feel they thrive under pressure.

 

Sometimes I play around with the idea that training just is the art and science of applying pressure carefully and releasing it intentionally. (It seems to me that many people find releasing pressure -- which is just as important as applying it -- to be more difficult.)

 

Some dogs enjoy the pressures (challenges) of training; those that can't tolerate training pressure may be retired early or never develop this full potential. I imagine that some dogs also enjoy the pressure of competition, too, and that people who compete at high levels value this quality in a dog.

 

A working dog must be able to handle pressure; it must keep working even when there's no fun at all in it any more, not quitting even when it is tired, hurt, or afraid. This quality is often called "heart." A SAR dog may show it as it searches for victims on raw bleeding pads days into a fruitless search. A sheepdog shows it when it faces down a ewe with newborn lambs. A cow dog shows it every time it faces down a big animal that can trample it into mush. Hemingway wrote that courage simply was "grace under pressure."

 

I don't think of pressure as a bad or unpleasant thing at all but as a really fundamental tool in the trainer's box. As w/ all training tools, of course, it can be misused and needs to be used in conjunction w/ the Patience Tool, but in itself I don't think it's bad at all.

[Root Beer]

I liked all of your definitions except this one. Why would pressure by, by definition, unpleasant?

 

I really don't know. That's just how I've always used and understood the word.

 

For instance, I was a major procrastinator in college. I did my best work under pressure and ended up with a fantastic GPA. But, the experience of pressure was never a pleasant one. It was productive, but not pleasant!

 

The best human performers seem to do their best work there. Consider Olympic athletes for whom the pressure of competition creates the conditions under which world records are made. Think of Tiger Woods; all that money riding on a single putt. Many people feel they thrive under pressure.

 

True.

 

In a broader sense, pressure can be a good thing. Shoot - I must like it because I definitely experience it in dog competitions.

 

If I were to use pressure in my own training, I might think of it as pushing the dog just a teeeeny bit past his comfort zone. For instance, the dog has been riding the motion of the teeter for a while as I actually move it down and now I wait for the dog to start to tip it on his own just a bit. There's a bit of pressure there.

 

I get the impression, though, that when stockdog trainers talk about pressure, that isn't really what they mean.

 

There is also the inherent pressure in competition - not just for the human, but the dog. The dog is in a new place full of unfamiliar dogs, people, and unusual noises. The dog is about to go out there and perform at full speed, or with a great deal of precision. That's definitely pressure. Some dogs thrive on it and some can't take it!! One of mine adores that pressure, one enjoys it when she's in the mood for it, and one crumbles!! He'll get there, though!

 

Some dogs enjoy the pressures (challenges) of training; those that can't tolerate training pressure may be retired early or never develop this full potential. I imagine that some dogs also enjoy the pressure of competition, too, and that people who compete at high levels value this quality in a dog.

 

I guess I see a big difference between that type of pressure - which is definitely a hugely major factor in sports, too - and using pressure to train new behaviors.

 

One thing you didn't say, but I've heard before is that a dog who is trained through reinforcement only never learns to take any kind of pressure, but that's absolutely not true. Some dogs don't even need to be taught to handle pressure, and for those that do, we have ways of helping dogs with that, too.

 

A working dog must be able to handle pressure; it must keep working even when there's no fun at all in it any more, not quitting even when it is tired, hurt, or afraid. This quality is often called "heart." A SAR dog may show it as it searches for victims on raw bleeding pads days into a fruitless search. A sheepdog shows it when it faces down a ewe with newborn lambs. A cow dog shows it every time it faces down a big animal that can trample it into mush. Hemingway wrote that courage simply was "grace under pressure."

 

Sport dogs show heart, too. That's actually one of the most beautiful things about participating in dog sports. (Different from life or death situations, true, but there all the same!)

 

One of the most amazing things I've ever experienced in my life was watching Speedy dance in front of 500 people. He was a puppy and young adult, you see, who used to hide under a chair or behind me whenever anyone else even looked at him. He got to a point where if a stranger walked into a room, his world ceased to function. Watching his face light up when 500 people clapped for him that day was beyond amazing. It was a long road, but he has traveled it with grace - grace under the pressure that simply exists when one is terrified of people by nature.

 

That moment didn't come because I ever put pressure on him to teach him how to take it - it came from his heart and it was pretty amazing!! One of the single most moving moments of my life.

 

I don't think of pressure as a bad or unpleasant thing at all but as a really fundamental tool in the trainer's box. As w/ all training tools, of course, it can be misused and needs to be used in conjunction w/ the Patience Tool, but in itself I don't think it's bad at all.

 

True, a clicker can be used as punishment if one wants to do that. Any tool can be misused.

 

Using pressure as a tool isn't something that I'm really all that familiar with. Part of my own overall framework for training is that I keep it as pressure-free as possible (with the exception noted above) and let life teach the dog how to handle the pressures that come along with life.

 

It has worked well so far.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Pressure is not necessarily unpleasant. It can be neutral or even welcome. lf you are driving down a road, knowing you are heading north and you need to get east, would you rather see more road in the next mile, or a T-intersection? The T-crossing stops your current course but it also gives you a chance to fix it.

 

I had the chance to see how this applied while working stock. Jack put me through the "be the dog" experience in the round pen once. It was incredibly eye-opening.

 

He told me, "Just walk towards the sheep." I walked towards the sheep and he said, "Eh-eh" and I turned deliberately closer to the sheep, like a dog "diving." He said, "ACHT" and I veered off, and the sheep went, "Whew." Then I walked to the sheep again, and when I hit the "spot" Jack said, very quietly, "eht" and I veered off a bit, but still walking towards the sheep.

 

At the same time, he was walking so I couldn't veer backwards, or through the sheep, but the area around the balance point was wide open. He wasn't using his stick or even waving his arms around, just walking along where I didn't need to be.

 

At the time I had even less stock sense than I do now, so I was totally surprised when in about thirty seconds of this, I hit the "spot" and stayed there confidently. More than that, I was really enjoying the little inputs from Jack - nothing more than corrections.

 

It felt like suddenly the space around the sheep was marked out with big roadsigns and I felt more comfortable moving sheep around than I ever had in my life before. Far from being unpleasant, it was really, really comfortable and I was sorry when it was over.

 

I think the right kind of pressure should be like a wall, not like those spikes that flatten your tires if you back over the barrier. A wall is neutral and gives you options to do something else. It also gives information - "No further."

 

Now, as a novice I'm trying to learn how to actually put this into action. I'm far more inclined to either give totally ineffectual corrections, or ones that are too spikey in nature.

[juliepoudrier]

If I were to use pressure in my own training, I might think of it as pushing the dog just a teeeeny bit past his comfort zone. For instance, the dog has been riding the motion of the teeter for a while as I actually move it down and now I wait for the dog to start to tip it on his own just a bit. There's a bit of pressure there.

 

I get the impression, though, that when stockdog trainers talk about pressure, that isn't really what they mean.

I think many people simply misunderstand what working folks mean by pressure and whether it's unpleasant to the dog. Sometimes I think folks picture beatings and the like.... As someone else noted, the release of pressure is probably as important or more important than the application of pressure. I had someone out here recently, an inexperienced handler with a young dog. She couldn't understand why her dog was diving into the sheep on even short little outruns, until I pointed out to her that she was leaning on her dog as she sent it, and the dog's reaction to that pressure was to speed up and dive in. By "leaning on her dog" I simply mean that she was standing next to the dog, leaning toward the dog, and throwing her arm out in the direction she wanted the dog to go (I see that a lot with folks who are used to doing agility--leaning and pointing in the direction you want the dog to go). She wasn't touching the dog or anything, but her mere presence sort of looming into the dog's space was enough pressure on the dog to cause it to race out tight (to get around/away from that pressure quickly) and bust into the sheep. Then I had her step *away* from the dog to the side she didn't want the dog outrunning on and hold her arm/stick out to the side she didn't want the dog to take (a form of pressure/blocking) instead of pointing it at the dog. This act of stepping away is a complete release of pressure, and putting her arm out to the side she didn't want the dog to run took up that physical space in the dog's mind (don't go there) and the dog did a lovely little outrun.

 

Another appplication of pressure is like this: When she wanted the dog to stop she'd step toward the dog to apply pressure to get the dog to stop. This isn't actual physical pressure because there's a whole group of sheep between her and the dog, but just her shifting her weight toward the dog, or perhaps raising her hands (to create a sort of barrier like Becca's wall) briefly is enough pressure to get the dog to stop moving forward onto the sheep (assuming the dog is on balance and the sheep aren't racing past the handler).

 

I'll never forget a Jack Knox clinic at Becca's where Jack kept remind a student that stepping into her dog or trying to physically chase it off sheep to widen it out was just creating a worse problem. When the student stepped into her dog for the umpteenth time, waving her stick, to try to widen it out, Jack went after her with his stick (all in fun of course). But his point was made. She wasn't accomplishing anything by repeatedly chasing the dog off stock (i.e., applying pressure), except to make things worse. When she released pressure as Jack had been asking her to do, the dog worked well.

 

As Becca describes, sometimes pressure is just the application of a voice correction, and sometimes pressure might simply be tapping a stock stick on the ground in a space you don't want the dog to come in to. In fact, generally the only time I can think of someone putting any sort of actual physical pressure on a dog (and I define physical pressure as actually touching the dog in some way) is if the dog is determined to bite sheep or try to take them down, and even then generally such pressure is used only after voice or physical presence have failed to make an impression.

 

In stockdog training and trialing we also talk about another kind of pressure, and that's the pressure that the sheep or terrain (for lack of a better word) also put on a dog. This pressure is also not usually a physical pressure (although it can be in case of, say, a ram charging and hitting a dog or if the sheep are crammed up against a fence or in a stall or small pen and the dog must physically push past them, although in both these examples the pressure the dog feels is both physical and mental), but rather the pressure of the stock's desire to go/be somewhere the dog doesn't want them to go. So when you hear mention of pressures (or draws) on a trial field, it means that perhaps the sheep really, really want to rejoin their flockmates in the set out pens or the exhaust pens and so they will put a lot of pressure on the dog to try to get past the dog and go where they want to go. The sheep aren't physically touching the dog, but they are doing everything they can to get around the dog or past it so they can go back to their friends. The dog has to deal with this pressure and keep control of the stock. Another pressure of this type would be when you're penning or shedding sheep. If the sheep don't want to go into the pen, they are going to try to break past the dog to avoid going in. This is pressure on the dog and the dog must deal with it to control the sheep. At the shed, the sheep being shed off are going to put pressure on the dog because they do not want to be separated from their flockmates (to a sheep this act of separating them makes them vulnerable to predation, so they will try *really hard* not to be separated from flockmates). In both situations the dog must be able to stand up to the strong pressure from the sheep and make them do what the handler wants the sheep to do--without losing its cool and gripping. Of course in both these situations, the handler is also helping the dog by applying pressure (not physical, as you can't touch a sheep at a trial) to the sheep. The proper application of pressure to the sheep by both the handler and the dog will make the difference between a successful pen and shed or not.

 

Then of course there's the pressure of competition, which is probably the same for any venue, except that with stockdogs the stock also apply pressure, so the dog has to deal with the heightened human stress of competition but still also has to deal with pressure from the stock.....

 

If I had to rank these pressures on a scale, I think the pressure of competition is probably the most difficult thing, because it's human-imposed and somewhat "irrational" from a dog's POV. (What I mean by that is that the human feels stress about the competition, which the dog picks up on, and which causes additional pressure on the dog--if the human could remain in their "Zen place" during a competition, then the dog would not have the added pressure of human expectations/hopes of winning to also deal with....)

 

J.

[Amelia]

Hello all, I read somewhere that you can breed an instinct out of dogs in as little as 2 generations. Sport dogs aren't selected for their ability to go to balance on livestock. Sport dogs aren't selected for their desire to run out to gather livestock. Sport dogs aren't selected for their ability to move livestock with appropriate feel, and with their eye, or presence. Even though we may share some desired traits with the sport-dog folks, like courage, speed, athleticism, endurance and intelligence, they are not first and foremost selectively breeding for balance, outrun and feel like the working dog folks.

 

Unfortunately, I have heard from some agility folks that individuals are additionally breeding for color and size. A short border collie may dominate in lower jump height classes and a specific color may be extra-cool to some. How long do you think it will be before you will not be able to find one, single, sport-bred border collie with no stock instinct at all, let alone good instinct? Not too long I'm afraid.

 

Cheers all

[Caroline Reichard]

One thing you didn't say, but I've heard before is that a dog who is trained through reinforcement only never learns to take any kind of pressure, but that's absolutely not true.

 

I will say that a working dog needs to work in situations in which there is no positive reinforcement whatsoever. That's a distinguishing difference between a working and a sporting dog, I think. The work dog may not have learned any different behaviors than did the sporting one, but it must perform them in situations or for periods of time that are are no longer "fun." So a work dog must have as part of its training the experience of performing under pressure and without positive reinforcement -- unless, that is, you are willing to find out whether or not you actually have a working dog when and if it doesn't let you down on the job. For a sheepdog whose training and work are often intermixed this distinction may not always be clear, but if you are a police officer using your dog to pursue a dangerous suspect, or if your dog has been flown in from hundreds of miles away to find a lost child -- then you sure as hell don't want to find out if your dog has what it takes at the time of deployment. So you deliberately add all kinds of pressures to the training situation, to see how the dog will react and to develop its tolerance for stress, fear, and pressure. You need to know what your dog is going to do before the life or death situation arises.

 

I guess I can maybe imagine a training situation in which only positive reinforcement was used but in which high levels of other pressures were added over time, but a dog with enough drive to make it through such a program would also be high drive enough to be able to accept correction, too. Besides, practically speaking there will always be times in working situations when a working dog must accept correction from the handler, if only to safeguard itself or others. Working dogs need to be really keen for their work, so they accept correction as part of the deal. ("Don't go there or you will fall to your death!" "You can stop biting him now, Rocky." "Leave that ewe alone, I need the other one!" and the ubiquitous, "Quit eating that, it's disgusting and poisonous!")

 

C&T methods are used in many sorts of SAR disciplines quite successfully, but they are not the only methods used. The method can train a prospect's alert (by definition unnatural behaviors) really well, but you may still see a hot collar on that dog if it chases deer. I can't think of a single case of a real working dog that was trained with a philosophy of positive reinforcement only in all situations. (I don't call it work, though, just because a handler may: I don't think Frisbee dogs are working dogs, even if they do make more money than I do.)

 

If you are training a dog to work livestock, it would disrespectful to the sheep not to correct the dog. You need to protect the sheep as efficently as possible. The dog needs to learn that straight off.

 

A working dog is going to have to take correction from the handler if for no other reason than for its own safety: "No! Don't go in there!!!"

 

A dog that leaves the training field when corrected tells may be telling you a lot about itself and may save you a lot of time and frustration.

 

It's kind of hard for me to even imagine a working dog being trained without corrections.

 

I think that maybe part of the problem here is that some folks are putting the work their dogs do first, and some folks put the dogs first. There is nothing wrong with putting your dog first, and I mean no disrepect in writing this. Many of us engage in activities becaue it is fun for us and fun for our dogs. If it stopped being fun, we wouldn't do it. The owners of working dogs have a different perspective: the work comes first. In some cases, this can lead to a dog getting killed doing its work. Or it can mean that a dog that can't or won't work gets sold or retired to pet status. But the work is more important than any individual dog, even though they love their dogs very much. (This may be weird to some of you, but that is how it is.) This mind set creates a very different set of expectations, and sometimes it's hard for ideas to get through the membrane seperating the groups. My apologies as I have poked at the barrier here if I have offended anyone, as I have found this to be a thoughtful discussion.

[shysheperdess]

Well put Amelia!

 

When looking into my first bc and breeders I came across many succesful agility dogs that were from working bred lines. Obviously this shows that the working bred bc can meet the needs of people who desire to do agility and other dog sports without having to breed border collies for there ability to do these sports alone.

 

For some reason, people fell the need to breed breed breed, still haven't quite figured that one out yet. I think alot of people supporting the bc as a working stockdog on these boards have no problem with people enjoying agility, etc. There is definetly a place for that, I myslef know a few bc's from parent's competing in USBCHA open trials who themselves had little interest in working sheep and now are making wonderful companions/sport dogs. It's when people start breeding for color, agility only, etc. God they are even crossing bc's with pitbulls now to make better flyball dogs, the future of the breed is at stake.

[Pippin's person]

God they are even crossing bc's with pitbulls now to make better flyball dogs, the future of the breed is at stake.

 

I think they are breeding to Staffordshire bull terriers not American Staffordshire terriers (the classic "pitbull"). At some level, this seems like a better option than breeding border collies specifically for flyball (or agility)--no one calls a border-staffy a border collie or automatically thinks that it will work sheep as is the case with many sport-bred border collies. There's far less question really about its stock work ability.

 

IMHO border collie mixes are less of a threat to the working breed than "pure" border collies bred for characteristics other than stock work.

 

I totally agree with you that it's hard to understand why so many people feel so compelled to breed their dogs.

[shysheperdess]

Pippin's person, I know you are right about the mixes not being as much of a threat, but I am already starting to see a flood of these into the shelter's. I like staffy's don't get me wrong but I have serious worry about how these crossed are turning out temperament wise and the adoptability of these poor pups

[juliepoudrier]

Well put Caroline. There is nothing more frustrating than being let down by a dog when the work gets really tough (or takes a long time). The work doesn't go away just because the dog isn't happy doing it, so you really do need a dog that can work under pressure without quitting. Of course, the other side of that coin is that it's my responsibility as the human to do whatever is reasonable to protect my dog from harm while doing such work.

 

J.

[Pippin's person]

Pippin's person, I know you are right about the mixes not being as much of a threat, but I am already starting to see a flood of these into the shelter's. I like staffy's don't get me wrong but I have serious worry about how these crossed are turning out temperament wise and the adoptability of these poor pups

 

I know--that's a different, sad (and in many ways more immediate) side of the issue (though honestly, most, if not all, of the BC-Staffy mixes I've known were totally awesome little dogs, but people often shy away from a bully mix when they look to adopt)

[sweet_ceana]

I think that maybe part of the problem here is that some folks are putting the work their dogs do first, and some folks put the dogs first. There is nothing wrong with putting your dog first, and I mean no disrepect in writing this. Many of us engage in activities becaue it is fun for us and fun for our dogs. If it stopped being fun, we wouldn't do it. The owners of working dogs have a different perspective: the work comes first. In some cases, this can lead to a dog getting killed doing its work. Or it can mean that a dog that can't or won't work gets sold or retired to pet status. But the work is more important than any individual dog, even though they love their dogs very much. (This may be weird to some of you, but that is how it is.) This mind set creates a very different set of expectations, and sometimes it's hard for ideas to get through the membrane seperating the groups. My apologies as I have poked at the barrier here if I have offended anyone, as I have found this to be a thoughtful discussion

 

To me, a person who has dabbled just a teensie bit in both sport and livestock, the above explanation makes perfect sense. I feel like the dog probably has this same mindset about sport vs. work as well. This explanation hits the nail on the head about how Poke reacted to his first taste of agility and of livestock. (HA, literally a taste with livestock, he thought the goats needed gripping(? -i think was the term) quite frequently) Poke had a blast with agility. He lights up with joy when he feels like he has translated whatever crazy thing I have asked him to do. Poke looks at c/t like he does frisbee, it is SO MUCH FUN! The first time he was put on goats, there was WEEEE, but a different kind of WEEEE. It was a very "this is what I do," WEEEE. (If that makes sense.) His attempt at stock work was not a game, it was something to be done. Ceana had a very similar reaction to stock work, she just sees c/t and agility as a good way to get cookies. Ceana is not a preformer, shall we say. In fact, her introduction to goats was the first time we asked her to follow some instructions and she wasn't motivated by her, "and what do I get out of this?" attitude we often got in obedience class. hmmmm...

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I've had a BorderJack foster languishing here for seven months (going on eight). When she came she was just a year old, the perfect size, shape, temperament, drive, and age to start training for any sports anywhere.

 

Like I said, she's languishing, and I see litter after litter of designer bred sports pups out there.

 

 

 

I'm currently short on patience with sport breeders period. WONDERFUL dogs are available everywhere. I could tear up with this brilliant wee dog in flyball or agility (maybe not agility as the handler is more of a factor ).

[Root Beer]

I think that maybe part of the problem here is that some folks are putting the work their dogs do first, and some folks put the dogs first. There is nothing wrong with putting your dog first, and I mean no disrepect in writing this. Many of us engage in activities becaue it is fun for us and fun for our dogs. If it stopped being fun, we wouldn't do it. The owners of working dogs have a different perspective: the work comes first. In some cases, this can lead to a dog getting killed doing its work. Or it can mean that a dog that can't or won't work gets sold or retired to pet status. But the work is more important than any individual dog, even though they love their dogs very much. (This may be weird to some of you, but that is how it is.) This mind set creates a very different set of expectations, and sometimes it's hard for ideas to get through the membrane seperating the groups. My apologies as I have poked at the barrier here if I have offended anyone, as I have found this to be a thoughtful discussion.

 

Actually, I've often thought something along the lines myself.

 

I think of livestock work as work and sports as games. I often say, for example, that I'm not going to get on my dog's case because he or she messes up at playing a game. That doesn't mean that I think that people who work dogs on livestock should have the same attitude that I have toward a game. It is, as many say here, apples and oranges.

 

So, your observation, Caroline, doesn't offend me at all. It rings very true to me.

[Root Beer]

I've had a BorderJack foster languishing here for seven months (going on eight). When she came she was just a year old, the perfect size, shape, temperament, drive, and age to start training for any sports anywhere.

 

If I had a spot for a mix, I'd be interested in that girl. Bummer because I am SO ready to start training a new dog, but four is too many so that's that.

 

I'm curious, how tall is she at the withers?

[Jumpin Boots]

I think many people simply misunderstand what working folks mean by pressure and whether it's unpleasant to the dog. [edited to shorten]

 

Another appplication of pressure is like this: When she wanted the dog to stop she'd step toward the dog to apply pressure to get the dog to stop. This isn't actual physical pressure because there's a whole group of sheep between her and the dog, but just her shifting her weight toward the dog, or perhaps raising her hands (to create a sort of barrier like Becca's wall) briefly is enough pressure to get the dog to stop moving forward onto the sheep (assuming the dog is on balance and the sheep aren't racing past the handler).

I don't think of pressure to a sports dog or working dog as negative, whether the pressure is physical or spacial. However, I also don't think of abusive treatment of a dog as applying pressure. For me there is a line where a physical correction could be considered applying pressure, however, if the physical correction is excess or improperly used I would then consider it abusive.

 

I edited a part of Julie's post I hadn't meant to, whoops, but she commented on a student who continued applying pressure incorrectly and therefore getting an unwanted response from the dog. I see this all the time in agility, most often it happens at the off-side of a contact obstacle, the person will lean forward therefore telling their dog to drive forward faster and encouraging them to bail off of the equipment. I would say that 90% of the time, when that person then stands staight up while their dog is in the contact zone the dog will then hit the contat or atleast slow down.

 

In stockdog training and trialing we also talk about another kind of pressure, and that's the pressure that the sheep or terrain (for lack of a better word) also put on a dog. This pressure is also not usually a physical pressure (although it can be in case of, say, a ram charging and hitting a dog or if the sheep are crammed up against a fence or in a stall or small pen and the dog must physically push past them, although in both these examples the pressure the dog feels is both physical and mental), but rather the pressure of the stock's desire to go/be somewhere the dog doesn't want them to go. [edited]

 

Then of course there's the pressure of competition, which is probably the same for any venue, except that with stockdogs the stock also apply pressure, so the dog has to deal with the heightened human stress of competition but still also has to deal with pressure from the stock.....

[edited]

As far as the pressure of competition on an agility dog I think that the pressure of this would be fairly similar except for the added pressure of the stock. But I would think that handlers would probably be going through similar adrenaline rushes and therefore adding the same additional pressure to our dogs. I think the location pressure would be more for the stockdog then agility dog. While agility dogs will run on different surfaces, those surfaces will always be flat, groomed w/no holes or the like. Where a stock dog will not only deal w/unknown fields, but there may be hills, holes, and all sorts of unknown factors.

 

[edited]

I think that maybe part of the problem here is that some folks are putting the work their dogs do first, and some folks put the dogs first. There is nothing wrong with putting your dog first, and I mean no disrepect in writing this. Many of us engage in activities becaue it is fun for us and fun for our dogs. If it stopped being fun, we wouldn't do it. The owners of working dogs have a different perspective: the work comes first. In some cases, this can lead to a dog getting killed doing its work. Or it can mean that a dog that can't or won't work gets sold or retired to pet status. But the work is more important than any individual dog, even though they love their dogs very much. (This may be weird to some of you, but that is how it is.) This mind set creates a very different set of expectations, and sometimes it's hard for ideas to get through the membrane seperating the groups. My apologies as I have poked at the barrier here if I have offended anyone, as I have found this to be a thoughtful discussion.

[edited]

I think this is a very well put statement. Agility is not needed work, it's a part-time job; I think this is the same as weekend warrior stockdog trial people, who may not even have sheep, but train on their trainers or borrowed sheep. This person may skill practie if the weather is bad, but a true working dog handler couldn't do that. Those that have a farm and stock that helps to support their farm would indeed have a different requirement for their dog, that dog would have a full time job, maybe career would be a better term.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Kristine, Jetta is probably not more than 16 inches. I think she's more like 15. My puppy Sam was taller than her before he was sixteen weeks old. She's so nicely built you really can't tell she's a midget until you get your hands on her.

 

My only nibble was a terrier person - she came and was the first one who suggested "Border Jack" to me - but she wasn't interested because her personality is too "Border" and not enough terrier.

 

But talk about pressure - she can seriously take some. She does stuff like leap up on the desk while I'm working and I drop her (not so nicely as she knows better by now) and she'll be back again in five minutes.

 

You can see why people do this cross on purpose. Ironic that Jetta, most likely randomly and accidentally bred and dropped in a shelter on Christmas eve, got the exact balance of desire to please with super resilience and GO NOW (not to mention physical type and ability, that sport people want, whether it is purebred or mixed dogs. With the bonus that she's just about the perfect housedog.

 

I think this was only a partial hijack?

[MaryP]

Hello all, I read somewhere that you can breed an instinct out of dogs in as little as 2 generations. Sport dogs aren't selected for their ability to go to balance on livestock. Sport dogs aren't selected for their desire to run out to gather livestock. Sport dogs aren't selected for their ability to move livestock with appropriate feel, and with their eye, or presence. Even though we may share some desired traits with the sport-dog folks, like courage, speed, athleticism, endurance and intelligence, they are not first and foremost selectively breeding for balance, outrun and feel like the working dog folks.

 

Who here is arguing that they are?

 

I think the sport people who have posted on here have repeatedly said that they agree that border collies should be bred for working ability and that playing the game of agility is not the same (mentally and physically) as doing stockwork. Yet, comments like the one above keep occasionally getting posted, as if this IS the point sports enthusiasts are trying to make. It's not. The only myth that needed to be dispelled and I think Kristine did a pretty good job of dispelling it was the myth that dogs that do agility don't have to think. The rest of the discussion has been very interesting and productive, IMO. But, please stop trying to beat the sports people over the head with an argument that we are not even trying to make. We get it and we agree!

 

Now, back to Eileen's original question about c/t creating a bunch of soft dogs. I don't see this happening. Or, at least, I don't see c/t being a threat to the border collie as a breed. First of all, the dogs being trained with c/t methods would have to be bred. Most are not. The ones that are being bred are a threat to the border collie breed not because they are being bred to respond well to c/t training; they are a threat because they are being bred for traits that presumably make them better sports competitors instead of better stockdogs. I admit that I don't know what those "sports" traits are, as I don't know anything about breeding for sports and I've never even spoken with someone who breeds sport collies. So, I don't really know how they determine which dogs are "worthy" of breeding. I assume, though, that they are selecting for traits other than c/t trainability.

 

Another thing about c/t training that I think may be a misconception some folks have is that a person that uses c/t uses it for all aspects of training. I'm sure there are some real c/t enthusiasts that really DO use c/t for all aspects of training, but most folks that I know do not. I like to use c/t for some types of training, like shaping games or teaching tricks. It is very effective. It also works well when working to desensitize a reactive dog. Very few of the agility folks that I know use c/t for agility, though a few do. I don't use c/t for agility (I don't see the need and I'm not talented enough to do it correctly) and I don't use it, for the most part, for run of the mill training (e.g., basic manners, obedience). My dogs certainly know and hear the word "no," although Skittles usually thinks "no" is just a suggestion.

 

As far as agility folks using "positive" methods only and not using pressure or correction, I think that, for the most part, that is true. Well, except for the pressure part. Pressure is important in agility, too, though it is a different use of pressure. But, agility is a game. So, why would you ever want to correct (punish?) your dog for not playing the game the way you think it should be played? Now, if my dog is just acting like a jerk and being disobedient on the agility field, I will correct him. But, I will never correct him for taking a wrong jump or entering the weave poles wrong, etc. Also, agility, at least for me, is a very small part of my dog's life. He gets to play on the agility field once, maybe twice a week, if we are lucky. We very rarely do any training outside of classes. So, for him, the fact that he plays agility once in a while has very little influence over his overall individual development. Of course, he'll never breed, so the point is somewhat moot.

 

Of course, we are not top competitors, nor will we ever be. I don't have the time or money or desire to be an agility superstar. We do it because it's a fun activity for the both of us and gives us a chance to spend some one-on-one time together without all the other dogs around. So, perhaps I'm not really speaking to the folks that Eileen was referring to - the top agility people who will later breed their dogs. But, I think that I'm in the majority as far as agility folks go. No doubt, there are some really driven people out there that live and breath agility. But, I think most of the folks that participate in the sport are like me. They do it because it is a fun activity to do with their dog.