New pups - help!

[ejano]

Hi there,

we've had rescue dogs ages four years and up and this time we have purchased two 11 week old pups for obedience and agility -- need help and suggestions for entertaining them and teaching them how to play games other than "sheep and wolf" which they seem to know already They're really quite bright little guys and its quite interesting to watch them at such a young age adopt the classic pose when eyeing the soccer ball. They're starting to chase tennis balls and squeaky toys as well as play with stuffed animals but I'm looking for active games that will burn up their energy without hurting them and without them chasing and wrestling each other all the time. I know it's difficult to have two pups the same age but we do have them spending gradually more time apart and we're aware of avoiding the pack mentality ...the little black and white is more dependent on the red....the red is very confident and the first one to try anything new

 

Please help -- I want them to be very happy and I don't like seeing them chasing each other so much. They do break it up when I ask and our older female border collie does break it up when they get going too much.

[Lenajo]

The answer is very simple. Call the @#$#@LK$J@L# miller who sold you 2 puppies at one time and take one back.

 

And while you are there tell her for me to take their right hand, place the palm directly in front of their face, and then with force apply it quickly to their forehead in quick succession.

 

ai yi yi.

 

If you insist on keeping both pups, they need to be seperated *now*. And I mean seperate crates, seperate playtime, seperate walks, and seperate socialization. When they are human bonded and interacting well with a variety of strange dogs then you can start bringing them back togeter a little at a time as you can maintain control.

 

It will take months of work, and you've already missed their primary socialization weeks to do this in. Everything from now will be backtracking. Especially since you will be splitting the time between the 2.

[Debbie Meier]

I guess some of us missed your first post: http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.p...&pid=302317

 

Around here we don't teach games or encourage self gratification goaled stimulation. Puppies like children should be learning discipline, respect and self control among other things. Yes, they can be sources of entertainment, but I do not look to them as toys or to encourage them to perform just for my entertainment or to tire them out, they just develop more stamina. I had a chuckle when I read you first post, bury bones to encourage digging, what are you nuts? You don't want to encourage digging in any form or manner, at least that's my opinion. Busy them with teaching, learning how to stay put and behaive properly, tire the brain, save the body.

 

As far as seperating the two, the sooner the better, they need to be all about you not all about each other or the other dogs, the independent one needs to be channeled to the right discoveries and the dependent one needs to be encouraged to stand on her own. Also, if there is anything more annoying it's a pair of 16 week old pups bombing the yard on their own agendas "us, you want us, nahh, more fun to play with each other, catch us if you can!!! Hee hee, we are good at the escape game, arn't we!!" "Hey Bro, she's calling my name, that means run, Right!!! That game will haunt you for the rest of their days.

 

I'm with Wendy, pick one and keep it, let someone else raise the other.

 

Deb

[Rave]

If you ever want to do agility or obedience with them, you need to stop letting them play together all the time and treat them as two separate dogs - train them separately, play with them separately, ideally out of sight of one another. You need to develop a relationship with each pup individually if you ever expect that dog to "work" for/with you in agility and obedience down the road. yes, it's twice as much work, but you should've known that from your pre-pup buying research (or been told that by the breeder), so that's what you signed up for. Good luck with it, hope you have loads of time.

[Laura L]

I have a 10 week old puppy myself now and I can't imagine having 2 of them!

 

If you have to keep both, see if you can find someone to raise the other for you. You should want your puppy to bond to you, not to the other dogs. Don't worry about making the separation gradual, just do it. Get some crates and put them in separate rooms, separate walks, separate play time. It may be easier in the beginning to let them just entertain each other, but somewhere down the line you're going to pay for it.

 

Laura

[Lenajo]

I missed the other post too. Boy, reading that you could see where this was going.

 

Seperate. Now. Make self-entertainment only part of the day, and spend more time with structured, human oriented behavior. No, that does *not* mean throw a ball a day. I mean training in simple obedience basic, safe age appropriate exercise, structured relaxed behavior that makes the pup part of the family, not the center of it.

[Journey]

Yikes. I can't think of anything scarier for a new owner than 2 puppies, littermates no less. What spectacular breeder sold you them???

 

As others said - seperate, completely, no time together, no self entertaining with you out of the picture. Do not throw the ball, roll it (if you must teach this behavior). Get them both in different puppy classes and socialize the devil out of them w/o the other around! I sure hope you don't plan on having a life outside of dogs for quite sometime.......hats off to the breeder you've been had.

[ejano]

Hi there,

thanks for all of your replies/ You are all right on the mark about the pitfalls of bringing two pups into the house at the same time. Before we made our decision, we did our research very carefully and found many of your comments repeated by others and thoroughly discussed it with our very responsible breeder who only has one litter every couple of years. She has a permanent offer on the table to take either or both pups back at any time. The fact is no one wanted the second pup (his markings are a little funny and he is a too bit self-effacing for a herding dog) and he seemed to have a special attraction to my husband (sometimes dogs pick us, don't they?)

 

Because the breeder is local, we have been visiting and handling these pups since they were four days old and they know who their "persons" are and I do see bonding to each of us. Robin (the red) who was my choice hangs with me and Brodie (the black and white) stays with my husband and they will leave the other pup to come to their "person". They are separated a good deal of the day, fed separately, crated separately and go separate places without the other. They will go to separate puppy training classes as you noted. Meanwhile, I take each separately out for short obedience lessons morning and afternoon. I am rather proud of their "sit" and "come" and we're working on "stay" today. In the evening, I have Robin with me playing with his toys beside (NOT ON!) the couch and Ken has Brodie across the room doing similar interactions. Chewing is still a big part of their day and they've been very good about chewing on appropriate toys rather than the furniture!

 

They do get to play together for an hour or so morning and night with our eight year old female Border Collie (a rescue who has been with us four four years) and I've found that during those times if they have something to satisfy their curiosity they don't tussle with each other ( I know what looks cute now will end up as aggression), so that is why I was looking for are suggestions that will play on their ability to solve puzzles... and satisfy their mental ability so they aren't thinking up things to do on their own.

 

 

I'm sure the bone burying project did make you smile, but the fact is pups are diggers and I prefer to choose the spot where they will dig -- I haven't got around to it yet though .

[jdarling]

his markings are a little funny

 

Oh! Now we MUST see photos!

[ejano]

Oh! Now we MUST see photos!

 

 

Not sure how to upload a photo at this point but basically his legs are all white and he has two white zebra rings around his back mid section, splitting the black into two circles, white haunches and a big black target spot on his rear end surrounding his white tail. His face is so sweet, but he carries his ears back all of the time which makes him look like a seal. Oh yeah, his nose is pink and black -- the black part makes his nose look like a heart. Someone commented that he looks like a Holstein calf -- we forgave them. Funny little Brodie, we love him dearly.

 

Robin is a red tri with (this week ) green eyes. (They might turn gold). He's got standard markings and his ears prick forward. He is a beauty if I say so and has a wonderful personality. He will, I'm afraid, have to eventually go to work with someone who does herding/trialing because he already carries himself like a working dog and he is so steady and smart when introduced to new situations. We'll see how he develops in a few months...Check him out at three weeks old (when his eyes were blue) on barkmagazine.com -- he is the May photo contest winner!

[ejano]

you've already missed their primary socialization weeks to do this in. Everything from now will be backtracking. Especially since you will be splitting the time between the 2.

 

 

We've been visiting them two - three times a week since they were four days old and brought them home at 7 weeks -- three days apart. We also consulted with an animal behaviorist and another breeder/trainer before making the decision to bring them home together.

[juliepoudrier]

Not sure how to upload a photo at this point but basically his legs are all white and he has two white zebra rings around his back mid section, splitting the black into two circles, white haunches and a big black target spot on his rear end surrounding his white tail. His face is so sweet, but he carries his ears back all of the time which makes him look like a seal. Oh yeah, his nose is pink and black -- the black part makes his nose look like a heart. Someone commented that he looks like a Holstein calf -- we forgave them. Funny little Brodie, we love him dearly.

In other words, he's white factored, or more accurately, piebald. Some of us like dogs marked that way.

 

My Twist:

 

Laura's Nick:

 

To post photos, you need to put your pictures on a photo hosting site like Photobucket or others out there, then copy the URL of the photo, and paste it here with the tag at the end of the URL. (I believe there are also directions for posting photos in the gallery section.)

 

J.

[ejano]

In other words, he's white factored, or more accurately, piebald. Some of us like dogs marked that way.

 

Yes, mama was definitely white factored, papa a traditional tuxedo, and both had recessive red factors. The red and white pups turned out with pretty normal markings but the black and whites were scattershot. Brodie and one other female were as you say, piebald but the female's markings were much more uniform.

 

Where Twist has one stripe, Brodie has two (the other midbelly) and very few freckles. It's the big black spot on his behind that makes people laugh at him....

 

I'll work on picture posting.

[SS Cressa]

so that is why I was looking for are suggestions that will play on their ability to solve puzzles... and satisfy their mental ability so they aren't thinking up things to do on their own.

 

LOL Have you tried KONGs? We, my sister and I, are roomates and we tend to get border collies pups together. Althought we have them spaced 3 months apart. But to keep them enterain we use knogs, puzzle toys. We never seem to have the issues that people talk about but I allows asume it had to do with the pups being "own" by 2 different people. Or maybe it has to do with having one pup longer then the other... Either way all our dogs so far have turn out fine.

 

Anyways how we entertain pups:

 

KONGS and puzzle toys. Can't remember the site where we order them off of.

 

We also will hide treats around the room and let them find it.

 

Another thing you can do for enterainment is put treats under a bowl and let them figure out how to get them.

 

A great bone/treat for them is getting a marrow bone and filling it with peanut butter and freezing it.

 

Good luck and post a ton of pixs!!!

[Shetlander]

I'm sure the bone burying project did make you smile, but the fact is pups are diggers and I prefer to choose the spot where they will dig -- I haven't got around to it yet though .

 

I think some breeds are more prone to "needing" to dig than others. I'd guess terriers had more of this need than herding dogs, but I'm no expert. If my puppies are loose, they are under some kind of supervision and digging isn't allowed or encouraged any more than pottying in the house is. I also have avoided living with terriers.

 

At any rate, my point is if you are there to interrupt the unwanted behavior and encourage the behavior you do want, chances are your dog will not be a digger. None of my current three are. I don't think it is a given that dogs must dig. In fact, the only digger I've ever had was a basset mix who learned the behavior when 1. I was much more relaxed about leaving my dogs outside unsupervised and 2. I was watching a friend's dog for a couple of weeks and our "guest" liked to dig. My dog picked the bad habit up from observing and playing with her when I wasn't around to intervene. But certainly if you want your puppies to have the chance to dig, then training them to use one particular spot (be sure to protect it from cats when not in use) makes the most sense.

 

Back to your original question about exercising your pups' minds, do you do any clicker training? That is a fun way to have them work their little brains. I used the Clicker Cookbook with Quinn when he was a pup and it was a nice mental workout. I also did some games from Susan Garrett's book Shaping Success. In fact, that was my puppy raising bible for Quinn and I credit those games for much of Quinn's self-control beginning early in his life. It's a great book for agility and clicker training as well as raising a high drive puppy.

 

You might also poke around and do some searches on these boards about puppy raising and training. There have been lots of excellent discussions.

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

On top of kongs and other treat/food dispensing toys you can get tons of other stuff too. Here are some links

 

http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseacti...mp;ParentCat=77

 

http://www.cleanrun.com/index.cfm?fuseacti...;category_ID=39

 

http://www.amazon.com/Omega-Tricky-Treat-B.../ref=pd_sim_k_3

 

http://www.amazon.com/Premier-Busy-Buddy-M...pd_bxgy_k_img_b

 

They maybe a little young for some of this stuff but this one is my FAVORITE because you can stick them together

 

http://www.doggoneclean.com/index.asp?Page...&ProdID=225

 

You do have to be careful though because serious chewers can and will chew this one up. If they do chew the neck, you can cut it down with a kitchen knife and still use it like a kong.

[juliepoudrier]

It's the big black spot on his behind that makes people laugh at him....

Interestingly, the black spot on the rear (where the tail attaches) seems to be a pretty common marking in mostly white border collies. I was setting sheep at a trial recently when a dog came up who had black forequarters and hindquarters with a white ribcage/belly--my first thought was "That dog looks like a belted Galloway cow!" I'm sure up close the dog also probably had white on fore- and hindquarters (just not a lot of it at least on the side of the dog I saw as it came around the gather the sheep), but it sure did catch my eye because it was a pattern I hadn't seen before.

 

Twist when she was a little pup looked like her white stripes twisted around her (hence the name) like a barberpole.

 

If I were you, I'd just have the last laugh when my "odd marked' dog blows everyone else away at whatever activity you have planned for him. Looks won't matter when he's doing a stellar job!

 

J.

[juliepoudrier]

At any rate, my point is if you are there to interrupt the unwanted behavior and encourage the behavior you do want, chances are your dog will not be a digger. None of my current three are. I don't think it is a given that dogs must dig.

I laughed when I read this. Guilty as charged! I not only allowed Twist (and Kat and Phoebe) to dig, but with Twist and Kat taught them a "Get the mice!" command, which translated in their doggy minds means "Dig that mole outta there!" Of course, they will dig anywhere if I tell them "Get the mice!"--it doesn't have to be an actual mole hole....

 

I know there are people who make special "sandboxes" for their dogs just so the dogs can dig in a designated spot. I don't think that's such a bad idea if the human isn't opposed to digging in general.

 

J.

[Jumpin Boots]

Boots loves to dig, so he has a digging spot. We tell him 'Go to your hole' and he runs and jumps in, it's 3 feet deep at the deepest point and about 4x5 feet across. He picked the spot after we moved in and we just lthim keep it. Then we can tell him to 'dig it' and he does. We can also send him into mole holes, post holes, my parents creek; I've always thought it's a fun and healthy way for dogs to relieve some anxiety.

[ejano]

Back to your original question about exercising your pups' minds, do you do any clicker training? That is a fun way to have them work their little brains. I used the Clicker Cookbook with Quinn when he was a pup and it was a nice mental workout. I also did some games from Susan Garrett's book Shaping Success. In fact, that was my puppy raising bible for Quinn and I credit those games for much of Quinn's self-control beginning early in his life. It's a great book for agility and clicker training as well as raising a high drive puppy.

 

You might also poke around and do some searches on these boards about puppy raising and training. There have been lots of excellent discussions.

 

 

Thanks! I'll look into those books! Clicker training is definately on the agenda though I haven't started yet -- we're way out in the boonies and it take some effort to get to a pet store! Robin especially needs to pay attention. When on leash he's wandering all over the place and after wrestling with my sadly missed Scotty (60 lbs! of rescue border collie), I want to break any forging tendencies at fourteen pounds rather than forty!

 

Thanks again.

 

Liz

[ejano]

I laughed when I read this. Guilty as charged! I not only allowed Twist (and Kat and Phoebe) to dig, but with Twist and Kat taught them a "Get the mice!" command, which translated in their doggy minds means "Dig that mole outta there!" Of course, they will dig anywhere if I tell them "Get the mice!"--it doesn't have to be an actual mole hole....

 

I know there are people who make special "sandboxes" for their dogs just so the dogs can dig in a designated spot. I don't think that's such a bad idea if the human isn't opposed to digging in general.

 

J.

 

 

Robin is unfortunately a digger and I wish I'd had a camera this morning....I had a huge flower box filled with dirt ready to plant and the second I turned my back, he popped up in it and just like that dirt was flying all over the porch! I've got to get those bones buried! He also wallows in the mud. This pup gets lots of baths!

[ejano]

LOL Have you tried KONGs? We, my sister and I, are roomates and we tend to get border collies pups together. Althought we have them spaced 3 months apart. But to keep them enterain we use knogs, puzzle toys. We never seem to have the issues that people talk about but I allows asume it had to do with the pups being "own" by 2 different people. Or maybe it has to do with having one pup longer then the other... Either way all our dogs so far have turn out fine.

 

Anyways how we entertain pups:

 

KONGS and puzzle toys. Can't remember the site where we order them off of.

 

We also will hide treats around the room and let them find it.

 

Another thing you can do for enterainment is put treats under a bowl and let them figure out how to get them.

 

A great bone/treat for them is getting a marrow bone and filling it with peanut butter and freezing it.

 

Good luck and post a ton of pixs!!!

 

 

Thanks -- Pet smart has them as does tractor supply -- first stop this weekend! And I agree, its the pups knowing who their "person" is that makes the difference. Thankfully, Border Collies associate themselves strongly with people - so strongly in fact that sometimes they go nuts if their person leaves them. Brodie already knows when Ken's truck pulls in the driveway and begins to "sing" -- quite the little Celtic vocalist! In the morning, he wakes up in his crate like a happy baby, talking to himself. Robin saves all his communication for his face and ears. His expressions are amazing.

[Zap-n-Jo]

We just got a new BC puppy (Jake - 7 weeks old), and he adores our other 8-year-old BC, Jo. Jo is the sweetest girl, and has never exhibited any aggression to anything or anyone. In fact, she's quite nurturing to Jake and our two cats.

 

Jake follows Jo everywhere and incites her to play whenever possible. When she's in the mood, Jo will play with Jake, and they chase one another, growl, wrestle, etc., all the time with their tails wagging wildly. It is quite cute. However, Ejano's post below implies that this might be encouraging future aggression. Is this true? I love that my two dogs are bonding and playing together, but I certainly don't want this to turn aggressive as Jake grows bigger. I'd love to hear more thoughts on this. Thanks.

 

Susan

 

 

They do get to play together for an hour or so morning and night with our eight year old female Border Collie (a rescue who has been with us four four years) and I've found that during those times if they have something to satisfy their curiosity they don't tussle with each other ( I know what looks cute now will end up as aggression), so that is why I was looking for are suggestions that will play on their ability to solve puzzles... and satisfy their mental ability so they aren't thinking up things to do on their own.

I'm sure the bone burying project did make you smile, but the fact is pups are diggers and I prefer to choose the spot where they will dig -- I haven't got around to it yet though .

[Shetlander]

Jake follows Jo everywhere and incites her to play whenever possible. When she's in the mood, Jo will play with Jake, and they chase one another, growl, wrestle, etc., all the time with their tails wagging wildly. It is quite cute. However, Ejano's post below implies that this might be encouraging future aggression. Is this true? I love that my two dogs are bonding and playing together, but I certainly don't want this to turn aggressive as Jake grows bigger. I'd love to hear more thoughts on this. Thanks.

 

I almost responded to that statement but it was fairly tangential to the main issue, so I decided to skip weighing in. But since you ask… . I think it depends on the dogs involved. I've had puppies who played constantly with an older dog and they were best friends for life. Then there are situations like Quinn and my Lhasa. From early on, it was clear that any play between them needed to be monitored and immediately interrupted if it looked like the Lhasa was feeling overwhelmed. My current stance with those two is to stop the rare bout of play after a minute or two. They're just a bad match. Quinn plays too hard for the Sheltie but it isn't an aggression issue. The Sheltie has been playing with the Lhasa his whole life and any escalations are quickly over and not heated.

 

There might be some concerns with Ejano's puppies since they are littermates and sometimes so much similarity (same age, same size, same sex) can turn into competition and aggression as they mature. Then again, I've known litter mates that were very attached to each other their whole lives. It really does depend on the individual dogs.

 

The only thing I would caution with your puppy is to make sure that you spend one on one time with the puppy so he bonds well with you. My Sheltie grew up with 24 hour access to my other Sheltie at the time and she was more bonded to him than me. She was still a lovely companion and performed well in agility, but he was the sun in her universe. When he died, she was quite depressed for a few months. Now I'm the center of her universe and she seems cheerful enough but his death definitely changed her.

[eclare]

Robin is unfortunately a digger and I wish I'd had a camera this morning....I had a huge flower box filled with dirt ready to plant and the second I turned my back, he popped up in it and just like that dirt was flying all over the porch! I've got to get those bones buried! He also wallows in the mud. This pup gets lots of baths!

 

 

Sorry to hijack this thread and make it the digging thread, but one of the funniest things Daisy does is dig in the house - more specifically in my laundry basket and occasionally in bottom drawers. Apartment life doesn't provide a lot of digging opportunities, but she really really needs to hide those bones somewhere.