Costs of Training/Trialing?

[Bryna]

I have just purchased my first border collie puppy, a seven week old female that will be coming home after memorial day. I definitely didn't get her with the intent of working sheep on her, or even cattle -in reality, she will be a companion dog. That said, I do like have structured kind of activities with goals and competitions, and learning to work stock and eventually doing some trials sounds like something I could really get in to. Plus, I do have cutting horses, and it would sure be neat to have a dog I could send out to bring in specific cattle for the horses to work down at the trainers. (Is that something you can teach your dog to do -bring in a particular cow or cows?) Anyway, I think it sounds like something I would love to try out, when my girl is old enough. The question is, is this something one can do pretty reasonably? I think I already have like the world’s second most expensive hobby, lol, couldn't afford another one like that!

 

So, what are some ideas on what it would end up running me for puppy and I to learn to work sheep or cattle and then do some trialing? I do have a small farm, but I have seven horses and enjoy having enough grass to keep them most of the year, so I wouldn't want to have tons of livestock on my property. Still, sheep don't eat a lot, and a small flock wouldn't likely be a problem except that every year when I shear my single solitary sheep I want to cry. And she is a pet that sits perfectly still for the entire (hour long) ordeal. I suppose with more sheep to practice on I would have to get quicker...

 

Another idea we have strongly considered is to get a few cows. The upside of this is that I suppose I could work the cows with both the dog and the horses. Would cattle be too much for a young dog though? Sheep seem like they might be a smaller, safer critter for a beginner dog to work with. My other hesitation with cattle is that they eat a lot more than sheep, and I am well known for making a pet out of every critter we have -there's no way I could eat them, which makes raising either one hard to justify financially. I guess one option would be to buy yearling calves in the spring and sell them in the fall. Self deluding, but I might be able to manage that. Can you do things like that with lambs? And if so, would you be able to work them quietly with a dog without stressing them badly? Could purchasing say 10 8-10 week old lambs, putting them out on the pasture to fatten and working them a bit with the dog a few times a week until they are market size -3-4 months? And then selling, potentially be a good plan?

 

Now, weather I end up with stock to work at home or not, obviously we will need to take lessons. If I have critters to work at home, would one lesson a week probably put us on a track to make progress and assuming we have what takes, eventually compete? What do lessons tend to run? I live just east of Portland, OR, but do drive down to the Salem area once or twice a week, as I have two horses with a cutting trainer down there. So I have hopes that there would be somebody either reasonable from me or on the way to Tom's that I could take lessons with -sure are a lot of sheep! If you know of anyone in the area, please let me know!

 

Finally, what costs would I be likely to encounter competing? What do entry fees run? Are there very many competitions here in the PNW? Of course I'd probably get us all ready to compete and then the trials would all be the same weekend as cuttings. Are there other associated costs I am not even thinking about (there always are)?

 

Thanks a bunch for any info anyone can give me -I am so excited about my new puppy and all the possibilities for activities to do together and people to meet.

[Soda-pop]

I don't have any livestock of my own, so I can't speak to that but:

 

I pay $35 a week for 1, half hour lesson. I also have to consider gas as it's about an hour and half from my house.

 

Trials, IME, run from $30 to $45 per run. Something to consider here is camping or hotels you may need to stay at + food costs--depending, of course, on where the trial is.

 

Paige

 

ETA: I live in southern california

[stockdogranch]

Even for dogs that will eventually work cattle, most of us start them on sheep. Once the dog has some confidence on stock and knows a bit, then you can transition to calves. As for bringing specific calves, I just tell my dogs to bring the black ones ; no, they really can't differentiate, but I do know some folks who use a dog for turnback. As Paige says, lessons usually run around $35-$45, and some consider a lesson to be a specific length of time, while others consider a lesson to be working the dog three "works." There are plenty of trials in the PNW area, depending on how far you're willing to drive. Most folks will consider northern CA trials to be in that area, too. If you are into cutters, then you probably have a rig with LQ--that's what I haul to dog trials, as it really saves on motels and food, and it's nice to be right at the trial site, too.

 

Bottom line--trialling is fun and pretty addicting. If you are into cutters, dog trialling is WAY cheap by comparison!

A

[desertranger]

If you can find a good trainer for basic training the price should be between 100-125 for 5-8 weeks of training.

 

I'm trying to find sheep to introduce Jin to. At what age should I go that?

[juliepoudrier]

DR,

I don't know if you're referring to stockdog training or just obedience/manners training, but if it's the former, then your figure is probably too low.

 

As to when to introduce Jin to sheep, you can do that any time now, assuming you can find appropriate sheep and a trainer that knows what s/he's doing. His responses will tell you whether he's ready to take training pressure or needs to be put up. Most folks will say start at around a year old, but there's nothing wrong with trying them on stock before then as long as the stock are appropriate and the youngster isn't allowed to get in over its head.

 

J.

[juliepoudrier]

Bryna,

Before jumping in with both feet and going out and getting stock, etc., it seems to me a good plan would be to start your pup (when she's at an acceptable age to do so) with a good trainer and see first if she has the aptitude and you have the desire to go the route of trialing, bringing more stock onto your property, etc. IME, more often than not, people who are new to working dogs who also have stock at home end up making a lot of mistakes in their training that never would have happened had they not had stock at home and instead relied only on working their dogs under the watchful eye of a trainer/mentor at first (of course there are exceptions to this rule, but consider if someone wanted to learn cutting and came to you for lessons with a completely green horse as a pretty green rider and then wanted to practice on their own cattle at home in between lessons--in most cases, mistakes will be made and bad habits will develop simply because neither the human nor the horse has the experience to know when they are making mistakes in the first place). I'm not saying don't get sheep, goats, or cattle ever, but rather that it would make sense to wait and see how the training goes and whether it's something you really want to invest the time and money in on top of your cutting horse activities.

 

While you're waiting for your pup to grow up and start learning to work stock, you can decide just what your tolerance is for extra livestock, including purchase costs, feed and maintenance costs, and the reality that you have to be willing to move livestock on if you intend to keep fresh stock for dog work. Another thing to consider is that if you have a habit of making pets out of everything that comes onto your place, you will create livestock that doesn't behave like normal livestock, which will make working your dog considerably more difficult. If you can set your mind to viewing the sheep or cattle as stock and not pets, you'll make life a lot easier for yourself when you're trying to train your dog and also when it comes time to move some sheep (or other stock) on. Not viewing them as pets doesn't mean they have to be treated badly or anything--you just let them live like normal sheep/cattle and provide them with what they need to live natural lives (they don't need petting or hand feeding, etc.). Even though I do this, I still have a hard time when it comes time to send sheep to slaughter--I can't imagine what it would be like if they were all pets (well actually I have a friend who considers hers pets and can't bear to send them on, so she's limited in what she can do or have because of those pets).

 

When I started out, I took lessons once a week and worked my dogs an additional 4-5 times a week at my trainer's place. While she wasn't actively giving me a lesson all those other times I was out there, she did keep an eye on things and at least prevented me from making stupid mistakes. That was invaluable and I think helped me to progress at a much more rapid rate than if I had been just taking lessons once a week and trying to do the rest on my own.

 

Sheepdog trialing is not cheap, but I think it's still less expensive than any sort of competitive activities that involve horses.

 

J.

[timberviewfarm]

Bryna,

Before jumping in with both feet and going out and getting stock, etc., it seems to me a good plan would be to start your pup (when she's at an acceptable age to do so) with a good trainer and see first if she has the aptitude and you have the desire to go the route of trialing, bringing more stock onto your property, etc. IME, more often than not, people who are new to working dogs who also have stock at home end up making a lot of mistakes in their training that never would have happened had they not had stock at home and instead relied only on working their dogs under the watchful eye of a trainer/mentor at first (of course there are exceptions to this rule, but consider if someone wanted to learn cutting and came to you for lessons with a completely green horse as a pretty green rider and then wanted to practice on their own cattle at home in between lessons--in most cases, mistakes will be made and bad habits will develop simply because neither the human nor the horse has the experience to know when they are making mistakes in the first place). I'm not saying don't get sheep, goats, or cattle ever, but rather that it would make sense to wait and see how the training goes and whether it's something you really want to invest the time and money in on top of your cutting horse activities.

 

While you're waiting for your pup to grow up and start learning to work stock, you can decide just what your tolerance is for extra livestock, including purchase costs, feed and maintenance costs, and the reality that you have to be willing to move livestock on if you intend to keep fresh stock for dog work. Another thing to consider is that if you have a habit of making pets out of everything that comes onto your place, you will create livestock that doesn't behave like normal livestock, which will make working your dog considerably more difficult. If you can set your mind to viewing the sheep or cattle as stock and not pets, you'll make life a lot easier for yourself when you're trying to train your dog and also when it comes time to move some sheep (or other stock) on. Not viewing them as pets doesn't mean they have to be treated badly or anything--you just let them live like normal sheep/cattle and provide them with what they need to live natural lives (they don't need petting or hand feeding, etc.). Even though I do this, I still have a hard time when it comes time to send sheep to slaughter--I can't imagine what it would be like if they were all pets (well actually I have a friend who considers hers pets and can't bear to send them on, so she's limited in what she can do or have because of those pets).

 

When I started out, I took lessons once a week and worked my dogs an additional 4-5 times a week at my trainer's place. While she wasn't actively giving me a lesson all those other times I was out there, she did keep an eye on things and at least prevented me from making stupid mistakes. That was invaluable and I think helped me to progress at a much more rapid rate than if I had been just taking lessons once a week and trying to do the rest on my own.

 

Sheepdog trialing is not cheap, but I think it's still less expensive than any sort of competitive activities that involve horses.

 

J.

 

 

And this would be my greatest fear at home, with my own sheep and young dog, that I am doing something stupid that I dont even realize. That is why I depend on my gang to help me out between lessons!! I'm sure they get tired of my questions from time to time.........Sorry guys!!

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I second the statement that "practicing" in the initial stages can cause more harm than good. It doesn't take that long to get to the point where you can troubleshoot at home, though, if you are dedicated and have a good trainer.

 

Lessons run from $35 a session to $80, with some really top of the totem pole trainers offering time with them for much more (but such sessions are more like a mini-clinic unless you are lucky enough to live close enough to take regular advantage of such time). What constitutes a "session" depends on the instructor. It's fairly rare to see a trainer who starts the clock when you walk in the ring and works the dog a solid 30 min or hour. Usually your money also gets you a chunk of a day, often shared with other students, and lots of time to chat and ask questions. I prefer "group lessons" where you spend part or most of a day alternating work sessions with several other students. I learn from watching them, too.

 

Boarding training runs $300 and up for four weeks, with the average being around $500 I'd say. What you get for that depends on your dog's aptitude and of course the ability of your trainer. Generally it takes eight weeks or so with a top trainer and a dog with all the pieces in the right place, to get a dog you can trial with (once you learn, of course).

 

How much does trialing cost? How long is a string? You can spend almost as little or as much on competing as you like. It's never free but you can restrict your trialing to local trials only, or camp in your car and bring food from home, and minimize cost. Like any event you can participate in, from there the sky's the limit. Some serious competitors get toy hauler outfits, spend every weekend in the season on the road, take in all the top trials, get training from the country's best (and the world's best - you can import dogs from the champions overseas, too), and purchase farms and set them up with all the training facilities they will ever need.

 

The average competitor though, either has a modest camper or stays in hotels, works with dogs they raise themselves, and may eventually end up with a little "fixer upper" hobby farm. Or others come from the opposite direction, being people who raise stock already, and so they trial as the demands of the farm allow.

 

There are sheep, by the way, that you don't have to shear. They're called "hair sheep" because they have hair coats like goats in temperate seasons - they grow wool in the winter that sheds.

 

[Bryna]

Thanks for the replies!

 

Stockdogranch, I love the idea of using the dog as turnback -this scenario makes me, horse and dog all happy! Obviously the dog needs to be pretty well trained by that point, but definetly something to work towards assuming my puppy shows interest in stock.

 

I would consider N. Cal local to me with my current job, but I am applying for one with the county -county offices are CLOSED friday-saturday-sunday -three day weekends every week! And oodles of vacation time. So hopefully I get that, and many more road trips could be in my future.

 

Julie, thank you for the tips -I definetly will wait to see if puppy enjoys and has potential for sheep prior to bringing anything home, lol. I just like to plan ahead -gives me something new to obsess about at work while waiting to pick my puppy up. You make a very good point about me potentially screwing something up trying to work the dog on sheep initially on my own. Hopefully we either pick things up quickly or I can find a trainer very nearby though, bc I can't going somewhere else to work sheep more than once or twice a week being a possibility timewise unless I find someplace real close. I know you are right about the pet thing too -I would pity the poor dog that tried to do anything with my little ewe, Belle -she herds them! And if they tried to get too agressive, she'd be ramming at them while squished up against my leg -not exactly appropriate sheep behavior. Not really sure how to curb that phenomenon though -I'm actually not a treat feeder at all. Not that I am against it or anything, just not that thoughtful I suppose, lol. I don't even know what my critters see in me -most of the year, I don't even feed 'em. :shrug:

 

Rebecca, thanks for the idea on the hair sheep -something to consider. Belle is a Jacob, and I just love how cute she is. But looks aren't everything, lol. Not struggling with a whole herd of wooly sheep would be a definite plus! Eight weeks seems like an amazingly short amount of time, as well -thats great. There is no chance I will be sending my dog away from home for training, but if training the dog can be accomplished in two months with a good trainer, then that leaves the possibility open that I could do it with lessons in this lifetime.

 

Thinking of that, do trainers ever offer lessons using their own trained dogs? It seems to me something like that might be a good idea for me to get a feel for how things are supposed to go a few times before trying to work an unstarted puppy. I plan to check out a couple of trials this year as well -I noticed there is one in Turner, where my young horses are in training, in a couple of weeks -talk about conveniant! So I will have to go watch that one for sure. Do people bring their dogs along to spectate, or do they only allow dogs that are competing at the trials?

[amc]

Welcome, Bryna!

 

People do bring their dogs to trials; just make sure they are leashed and quiet :-). Too bad you missed the Northwest Champion Sheepdog trial this past weekend in Scio...it was probably very close to you. Turner is a tiny trial, one day only, run on a baseball field on a flock of dog-broke Katahdin hair sheep. That said, it would still be interesting for you to watch, but keep in mind it is not the exemplar of what an international-style trial is all about. Check out the USBCHA website for upcoming trials at www.usbcha.org; look under upcoming trials. There are a number of Oregon/Washington trials in July and August that are well worth viewing. The Lacamas trial in particular is really world-class.

 

Good luck with your pup, and I'm sure you'll find a ton of great information here!

 

Amy

[DeltaBluez Tess]

Lora lives in Salem and I would recommend her for lessons. She is a BC Board person

[bill virginia]

in virginia.........training cost for an hour or part of an hour runs $50-90. plus transportation to site.

 

i try to train my own.......for fun......was in trial competition in 1980's. on fix income and can not afford the cost of the above lesson. I am 78 and this my golf...........

 

bill

[C Crocker]

in virginia.........training cost for an hour or part of an hour runs $50-90. plus transportation to site.

 

i try to train my own.......for fun......was in trial competition in 1980's. on fix income and can not afford the cost of the above lesson. I am 78 and this my golf...........

 

bill

 

 

But to pup a dog in training, which I thought the Op wanted to do, is not nearly that cost per hour. isnt the $50-90 you are refering to a lesson /clinic?

[bill virginia]

But to pup a dog in training, which I thought the Op wanted to do, is not nearly that cost per hour. isnt the $50-90 you are refering to a lesson /clinic?

a lesson

[Laurae]

a lesson

 

For $90?

That'd be the cost of a lesson with a big hat, I assume. Otherwise, Bill, I'd say you're way overpaying

[hsnrs]

When we went to a trainer she charged us $30 to train my dog and $40 to train me with my dog. That didn't include the trip charges for us but well worth the charge. She was a BC person and not particularly a big hat although she did train with many of them. There is a big hat in our area and she charges $75. Sure wish we could win the lottery; she would get all my business. N

[Bryna]

Hey, does anybody know how long the Turner trial goes for? I didn't see any information other then the date on the OSDS website, and was just about to leave the house so I googled it to make sure I had the right location, and found an article that seems to indicate it only goes until 9:30 am. Can this be true? Hope I am misreading, bc I couldn't get there by 9:30 if I left right now.

[desertranger]

The cost of training locally for obedience from beginning to advanced is $90 for 8 weeks from Petsmart for below avg training to as much as $120 for 5 weeks (per course) at Dreamdogs where I take Jin and %50 per hr for private lessons. There is no trialing nor are there any sheep out here other than the wild kind. There is an agility group in Thousand palms. I spoke to them and found that group to be fairly arrogant. One guy there says give me your dog for 3 weeks and yourself for a week and I'll train the both of you for $1200. I guess his clients are mostly the wealthy. Frankly I can barely afford the lessons at Dreamdogs and I have no idea what I'm going to about his training in the future.

[stockdogranch]

Hi, DR. This thread is under the working stockdog section, so the assumptions are that we are talking about training a dog for stockwork and trialling.

 

If you are taking Jin to obedience classes now, what further training are you talking about? I mean, once he's "obedient," what do you want to train him to do?

A

[desertranger]

Originally I wanted to work him in sheep trials but as I said the closeest sheep and cattle are over a 90 min drive so the question has become sort of moot now. Nontheless the cost of training regardless of whether it's for trialing, agility or whatever is the same so it's relevant to the discussion. After all you have to start somewhere and most of the good trainers here won't even accept a dog for anything until after intermediate obedience.

[stockdogranch]

Ninety minutes is probably about average for someone to drive to get stockdog training. Some people are lucky in that it's closer, but some drive much farther than that (not just here in Ca, but pretty much all over the States). And it really depends on how big the hat is of the trainer as to how much you'll spend. But average seems to be in the $40-ish+ range around here,

A

 

ETA: Yes, you have sheep available about 90 minutes away (maybe slightly less if you went through the "badlands" and not on the freeway), but the only cattle available in SoCal (that I know of) for training a dog are another hour down the road

[WildFlower]

I drive 2 hours one way for a "herding" lesson. The lesson is 1 hour and the cost is $40. We trek once maybe twice a month.

[juliepoudrier]

well and i think it should be pointed out that most of us working our dogs on stock don't take them to obedience training beforehand (so quoting costs for puppy obedience or whatever isn't really relevant). that doesn't mean we don't teach them obedience, manners, etc., just that we don't pay for the privelege.

 

J.

[dracina]

Hey Bryna, welcome. Best of luck with the new puppy!

 

A couple of things to add:

 

Originally I wanted to work him in sheep trials but as I said the closeest sheep and cattle are over a 90 min drive so the question has become sort of moot now. Nontheless the cost of training regardless of whether it's for trialing, agility or whatever is the same so it's relevant to the discussion. After all you have to start somewhere and most of the good trainers here won't even accept a dog for anything until after intermediate obedience.

 

 

1. I drive 1.5-2 hrs. weekly for herding, and I would drive even further if I had to. I am not a pro or anything, but to me, it's like getting one of those big, 4-wheel drive trucks with an eight-foot bed, and then using it only to run up to the store to get milk: why get the herding dog if you don't do any herding? I would think that anyone who is a former Border Collie breeder and long-time owner such as yourself, DR, would believe the same.

 

2. I pay $150 for four 30 minute lessons with someone who trials regularly at ISDS-style trials (so about $37.50/30 mins.) Quite a bit more than agility or obedience training, I think.

May be alot more than what others are paying, but we live in an urban area, and there aren't many other trainers around. We really like ours, anyway.

 

3. Although both of my dogs have done both agility and obedience training, obedience training is absolutely not a pre-requisite for herding that I am aware of; in fact, I think that it can be detrimental to herding (other than recall and down). The reason I think so is that the dog is too used to looking to the owner for instruction in obedience and agility, and can become a push-button dog on stock. A stock dog needs to be able to think on its own, too, in order to get the job done.

[desertranger]

Ninety minutes is probably about average for someone to drive to get stockdog training. Some people are lucky in that it's closer, but some drive much farther than that (not just here in Ca, but pretty much all over the States). And it really depends on how big the hat is of the trainer as to how much you'll spend. But average seems to be in the $40-ish+ range around here,

A

 

ETA: Yes, you have sheep available about 90 minutes away (maybe slightly less if you went through the "badlands" and not on the freeway), but the only cattle available in SoCal (that I know of) for training a dog are another hour down the road

 

 

Over da badlands, you mean through Lamb Canyon? (sic) to Hemet? Or through Anza and Aguanja to Valley Center? I really would like to intorduce Jin to sheep.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hey Bryna, welcome. Best of luck with the new puppy!

 

A couple of things to add:

1. I drive 1.5-2 hrs. weekly for herding, and I would drive even further if I had to. I am not a pro or anything, but to me, it's like getting one of those big, 4-wheel drive trucks with an eight-foot bed, and then using it only to run up to the store to get milk: why get the herding dog if you don't do any herding? I would think that anyone who is a former Border Collie breeder and long-time owner such as yourself, DR, would believe the same.

 

2. I pay $150 for four 30 minute lessons with someone who trials regularly at ISDS-style trials (so about $37.50/30 mins.) Quite a bit more than agility or obedience training, I think.

May be alot more than what others are paying, but we live in an urban area, and there aren't many other trainers around. We really like ours, anyway.

 

3. Although both of my dogs have done both agility and obedience training, obedience training is absolutely not a pre-requisite for herding that I am aware of; in fact, I think that it can be detrimental to herding (other than recall and down). The reason I think so is that the dog is too used to looking to the owner for instruction in obedience and agility, and can become a push-button dog on stock. A stock dog needs to be able to think on its own, too, in order to get the job done.

 

1. Jin was an unexpected gift. I walked into the house and there he was.
    
   
2. With tourism down 80% and the possibility of our not reopening next season very high cost has become a major factor. We have already cancelled our vacations plans for this summer and only plan to go to visit my sister twice this year instead of the usual 3-4 times.
    
   
3. So do SAR, trail and drayage dogs. Besides I already have one push button dog, Abby so who needs another.
   

The price of gas has gone up here $0.50 in the past couple of weeks. I paid $3.00 a gal this morning. DW's furloughs are an effective 10% cut in her salary and my disability isn't even worth the check it's printed on. In the current economy I plain can't afford it. There may be a couple of exceptions if I can put it together. Maybe Stockdog can help me out and find a place.

 

In fact everyone here can help out. Buy a Desert Bandanna Every 5 I sell pays for a lesson and transportation. I'll have my book out by Sept. That'll help too.