Root Beer Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 Have any of you taught your dog a solid understanding of "switch", or an equivalent word, to mean "turn away from where I am now?" on your Agility dogs. I'm not looking for tips on how to teach it, as I have a plan for that already. My question is this - can the dog understand "turn away from me" off of both sides with equal fluency on the exact same cue? I know that some choose to train "left" and "right", but that is not an option for me since I would send my dog off in the wrong direction about 25% of the time. So, I'm inclined to think that a "switch" is the way to go for both directions with Dean. I'm wondering how this has worked out for those of you who have set out to teach it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dal & Mad's Mom Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 Have any of you taught your dog a solid understanding of "switch", or an equivalent word, to mean "turn away from where I am now?" on your Agility dogs. I'm not looking for tips on how to teach it, as I have a plan for that already. My question is this - can the dog understand "turn away from me" off of both sides with equal fluency on the exact same cue? I know that some choose to train "left" and "right", but that is not an option for me since I would send my dog off in the wrong direction about 25% of the time. So, I'm inclined to think that a "switch" is the way to go for both directions with Dean. I'm wondering how this has worked out for those of you who have set out to teach it. Are you cueing them to an agility piece could you use switch tunnel for example for starters?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted February 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 OK, here's an example . . . Dean is going into a straight tunnel and I am going to rear cross while he is in the tunnel so I want him to turn away from where I was originally after he comes out of the tunnel. This is taking into account the fact that as he comes out, I am behind him - most likely headed out to the side, so he needs to know upon entry that he is to exit the tunnel and turn the other way. Right now he is expecting me to be on the same side I was on when he entered the tunnel, even if I call his name from the side I have switched to well before he comes out the other side. He really needs a clear cue to know as he enters that I am going to cross and he needs to look for me on the other side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Boots Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 Hi I have taught Boots the turn away from me command with 'left/right', at the time I didn't even know that people used 'switch.' I tend to get confused in practice when I'm thinking about it too much, but have found the correct words usually come out one course and the interesting thing I have realized is that even when I do tell him the wrong direction I almost always, 90% of the time recieve the correct behavior. This has led me to believe that even though I taught him with 'left/right' that he associates the words to mean the same thing...turn away. I have several agility friends 1 who runs a small fast JRT and the other two who run BC's and they all use 'switch' and all have very high success rates. They taught their dogs using the same method I did, but only with one word, and I would say that all of us have about the same success rate, near 95% for recieving the action we want when using our turn away command. On a side note, I had been struggling with my 'out' command for descriminations, we were only successful about 60% of the time and at the elite level were donating a lot of entry fees. One day I was out working it at home and my boyfriend suggested I try using the left/right command instead. With as sigh towards him that of course it wouldn't work, I was quickly eating crow. So I now use the 'left/right' command when I want the obstacle away from me followed by the obstacle name, and 'here' followed by the obstacle name when I want to close one. Our descriminations have been 100% at trials and about 90% at home and practice since I started using 'left/right' for them. I have had two people come up to inform me that I am using command incorrectly, which I don't really understand the significance of, if it works and you and your dog are communicating it really shouldn't matter what the words are, but I think people just get stuck in 'my way is the right way.' Whoops, sorry for going off on a tangent, but I think you will be fine with using the same word, and I think you will find it will save you time and time again on course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olivia Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 Yup, it can be done. Grif and Sol both 'turn'. It means that when you are finished with the obstacle in front of you, you should finish or land going away from the side I was on when you started the obstacle. So if I am on the dog's left and send him to a jump saying 'jump, turn' he will land curved and running toward his right. Same if I am on the right and tell him to 'jump, turn' he will land curved and running towards the left. It is the same verbal command, just meaning turn away from me. Does that make sense? It works really well for me and is consistent. Olivia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted February 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 Yup, it can be done. Grif and Sol both 'turn'. It means that when you are finished with the obstacle in front of you, you should finish or land going away from the side I was on when you started the obstacle. So if I am on the dog's left and send him to a jump saying 'jump, turn' he will land curved and running toward his right. Same if I am on the right and tell him to 'jump, turn' he will land curved and running towards the left. It is the same verbal command, just meaning turn away from me. Does that make sense? Yes! That's exactly what I want, too - finish or land going away from the side I was on when you started! It works really well for me and is consistent. Thanks! I'm glad to hear it can be done! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted February 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 Whoops, sorry for going off on a tangent, but I think you will be fine with using the same word, and I think you will find it will save you time and time again on course. Thanks! What I have to do now is actually run into his path and pause. From the sidelines it looks like we are going to have a collision, but really it is more controlled than that! It's not efficient handling, though! In spite of the fact that I had to do that two or three times with him on a Tunneler's course yesterday, he was still almost 10 seconds under time!!!! Imagine when I get this "switch" going!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaisingRiver Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 River and Jaida both know 'Switch' which was very easily taught with treats turning them away from me from each side. I also used the hand gesture which is pretty much me flipping my hand palm down to palm up - (diff hand for each side 'direction') but with a fluid s-like motion. Neither dog knows left or right though. I use it for like coming off a dog walk and having to U turn into something like a tunnel next to the walk. So... pretty much it's a U turn command. I would use left or right for any away work that needed a more 90 degree direction change - but like I said, neither of my dogs have that part Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted February 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 River and Jaida both know 'Switch' which was very easily taught with treats turning them away from me from each side. I also used the hand gesture which is pretty much me flipping my hand palm down to palm up - (diff hand for each side 'direction') but with a fluid s-like motion. Neither dog knows left or right though. Dean knows switch on the flat, and he does understand it in both directions. We haven't trained it on equipment yet, so I can't use it during runs. But I would imagine it will be pretty easy to transfer. In the spring when the ice melts I'll work it with a straight tunnel in my yard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diane allen Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 My ol' girl Lucy knows "switch" - either side, and either verbal OR off-side arm. What a great dog she is! I'd advise teaching it first on something like a jump - throwing a toy or whatever you use, so the dog can SEE you. Using a straight tunnel AT FIRST might just make it a bit harder. My youngster has a pretty decent "right" and "left" - but I still use the "switch" command, especially on tunnels Yep, it can be done! diane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Boots Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 I would agree w/ Diane to start w/ a jump instead of tunnel. After I work a single jump then a add a second jump so the two are in the shape of an L, spaced out appropriately for my dogs size. After they are working both turns w/ about 95% accuracy, I turn the L into a box and start changing up my ques. Working with them on staying with me, turning away, or going on forward w/out me. Some people target this exercise w/ food, but I find it easier and my dogs find it more rewarding to throw toys or tug after they get over the second jump. As Boots has progressed I have added more jumps to the far end so it makes an eight shape and we're working on me staying in one place and just giving verbal and hand signals, still have a ways to go, but we are improving every day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgileBC Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Sure, It can be done! Kyla has a good, solid "turn" cue which for us means: turn away from me (it doesn't matter what side she is on) I almost always use the "turn" cue followed quickly by an obstacle cue - so that once Ky turns away, she has somewhere to drive to. It works EXCELLENT for us. A good example is something that we did in practice today... I sent Kyla into a straight tunnel on my left (and kept her on my left while she was in the tunnel) and then gave her the "turn" cue just before she exited, followed by her jump cue to pick up a jump 15-20 feet away on the left, while I rear crossed behind her while she cleared the jump and drove to the dogwalk. I really like the turn cue, its useful! Oddly enough, "Turn" is one of Kyla's favorite agility cues! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgileBC Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Yup, it can be done. Grif and Sol both 'turn'. It means that when you are finished with the obstacle in front of you, you should finish or land going away from the side I was on when you started the obstacle. So if I am on the dog's left and send him to a jump saying 'jump, turn' he will land curved and running toward his right. Same if I am on the right and tell him to 'jump, turn' he will land curved and running towards the left. It is the same verbal command, just meaning turn away from me. I usually use our "turn" cue after Kyla has completed an obstacle and sometimes on the flat. I'll have to try using it this way! could be interesting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Yes it can be taught and taught well, it's basically teaching them to switch leads, so can also be usefull when a lead change w/o a rear cross is needed. I use "turn" (easier to say than switch). I remember after our final jumpers run at Mixed Breed Natz back in 2002, I kept saying "turn" on course and this spectator came up to me afterward to say, "your dog understands turn so well, but how does she know which WAY to turn?" hahaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted February 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 My ol' girl Lucy knows "switch" - either side, and either verbal OR off-side arm. What a great dog she is! I'd advise teaching it first on something like a jump - throwing a toy or whatever you use, so the dog can SEE you. Using a straight tunnel AT FIRST might just make it a bit harder. My youngster has a pretty decent "right" and "left" - but I still use the "switch" command, especially on tunnels Yep, it can be done! diane Thanks! When you taught it, did you cue the switch along with the jump cue - "jump - switch" - or do you wait until the dog is in the air or landing to cue the switch? I'll definitely start with a jump first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted February 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 I sent Kyla into a straight tunnel on my left (and kept her on my left while she was in the tunnel) and then gave her the "turn" cue just before she exited, followed by her jump cue to pick up a jump 15-20 feet away on the left, while I rear crossed behind her while she cleared the jump and drove to the dogwalk. That's exactly it! Thanks for the diagram! Pretend they are all tunnels and that was the exact configuration of one of the sections of the course that we had some bobbles on yesterday! As he was coming out of the straight tunnel, I was just slightly to the left of the "R" on the handler path you have drawn, running directly toward him. That's exactly where we need the "switch" or "turn" (not the cue, but the actual skill), so he knows to turn toward the tunnel where the second jump in the diagram is. So, I need to get it to where I can say "switch-tunnel" or "turn-tunnel" just before he exits so he knows he will be turning away from me and then I rear cross as he commits to the correct tunnel ahead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Thanks! When you taught it, did you cue the switch along with the jump cue - "jump - switch" - or do you wait until the dog is in the air or landing to cue the switch? I'll definitely start with a jump first. Since it's a lead change, it needs to be cued by you and executed by the dog before the jump to lessen the risk of a dropped bar and to give the dog timely information so he takes the most efficient line. Also, the dog should do what's in his path anyway, so there is no need for a jump command as well. Things often happen so quickly, it's all one can to do get out just the directional cues. To teach it, start on the ground first before adding an obstacles. ;-) I start with using a cookie (since it's a stationary exercise) to get them to bend each direction as a bending exercise before adding any forward movement (where you can switch to a toy). To get them to turn away towards the left, you need to stand on the dog's right and lure them to bend toward their left with either the inside or outside hand, whichever you prefer. Most prefer inside these days since they use outside to signal a front cross. Then rinse and repeat in both directions. It's really quite simple and fun to teach, and good for their flexibility when working more on the bending at first. Then it turns into a great warm-up exercise to really get those back/side muscles flexing/extending. G'luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted February 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Since it's a lead change, it needs to be cued by you and executed by the dog before the jump to lessen the risk of a dropped bar and to give the dog timely information so he takes the most efficient line. Also, the dog should do what's in his path anyway, so there is no need for a jump command as well. Things often happen so quickly, it's all one can to do get out just the directional cues. Makes sense on the jump. What about with a long, straight tunnel? Would you save the switch cue in that case until the dog was actually in the tunnel, or even on his way out? In that case the lead change won't happen until the dog is through the straight tunnel, so I'm guessing the switch would be cued somewhere around the dog's exit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninso Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 I probably shouldn't even be replying, since I don't do agility, but I think in our 8 weeks that we did agility we started to learn something similar with a "turn" cue. I only mention it because my agility instructor who I saw last night pointed out that there was an article in this month's Clean Run magazine on teaching the command. We used the same command for both sides. I'm not sure it's the same thing you're talking about, but it sounds like it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted February 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 I probably shouldn't even be replying, since I don't do agility, but I think in our 8 weeks that we did agility we started to learn something similar with a "turn" cue. I only mention it because my agility instructor who I saw last night pointed out that there was an article in this month's Clean Run magazine on teaching the command. We used the same command for both sides. I'm not sure it's the same thing you're talking about, but it sounds like it. Was that in the Pig's Fly article on Rear Crosses? It's sort of the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgileBC Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Makes sense on the jump. What about with a long, straight tunnel? Would you save the switch cue in that case until the dog was actually in the tunnel, or even on his way out? In that case the lead change won't happen until the dog is through the straight tunnel, so I'm guessing the switch would be cued somewhere around the dog's exit. I the case of a tunnel I try to get the turn cue out of my mouth (not that it always works well ) just before Kyla exits the tunnel. She is a fairly quick dog and it seems to still give her plenty of time to switch leads. After she starts her turn away from me, I quickly give her an obstacle cue so she knows where to drive to next. When I was training the "turn" cue I first taught her to basically do a 180degree "u-turn", turning away from me on either side. You can use a bar stool in your house to practice this too, to get a tiny bit of distance to the side. Later we did the same "uturn" thing with a jump and then worked up to moving the jump further away so she was turning more at a 90 degree angle. Sometimes we still practice with the bar stool. ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
in2adventure Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 I like to use switch when we compete. It lets Lucia know that regardless of what she's doing, she just needs be prepared to switch direction. With that being said, voice commands are used very minimally with her. I find that they get in the way and sometimes confuse the dog. Even when the timing is correct on my part. If the handler is using proper body position and timing for the signals are given correctly, the dog should be able to read where you want them to go without being told. The verbals should only be used to reinforce what the body is telling them. JMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted February 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 If the handler is using proper body position and timing for the signals are given correctly, the dog should be able to read where you want them to go without being told. The verbals should only be used to reinforce what the body is telling them. JMO I definitely concur, but if he is coming out of a straight tunnel at full speed and will not be able to see where I am until he is actually out and headed off in the wrong direction, a verbal to let him know exactly where I am and exactly where he is to go immediately upon exit is beneficial to him!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
in2adventure Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 I agree with what you are saying. But a switch is a command to change the lead on a dog during a TURN though. When coming out of a straight tunnel, a dog should follow a straight line and not veer in either direction if no command or cue is given. I use "here" before the dog has exited to let them know what side to turn to. If their head is already poking out, it's too late. If they are not in far enough, it's too early. Very fast dogs are hard to time sometimes. Tunnelers runs are the only courses I'm very verbal on because Lucia needs to know the direction before she sees the cue. If the dog is coming out of a curved tunnel, the dog will naturally go in direction of the curve. This is where a switch would work to change the natural order of things. "switch" could be used before they enter or just before they exit to turn the dog in opposite direction of the curve, depending on the dogs training and ability to understand the command. One thing that might help with the tunnel is to use a threadel as he comes out. I don't know how to explain it without showing it to you. Maybe your trainer can help with this. It would pull Dean in your direction for a spit second which would be enough to redirect him to a different obstical. This keeps all his attention on your cue to the next obstical. I hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted February 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 A threadle might work if he gets the idea of me rear crossing the straight tunnel! In fact, if he understood where I end up when I rear cross him, a threadle would probably not even be necessary because he would naturally arc in the right direction based on my positioning. One thing I need to work on with him at home using a straight tunnel (come on, spring!) is teaching him to understand when I change sides while he's in the tunnel. Right now this is definitely a hang up of his. If I rear cross the tunnel - either before or after his entry into the straight tunnel (curved tunnels are fine since I end up inside the curve of the tunnel on a rear cross), he does not understand where to find me, even if I were to call his name several times from my new side while he's in there - it throws him off mentally when I do this, as well. This is just something he needs to learn to perceive and we can use a short, straight tunnel to work on it and gradually lengthen the tunnel as he gets it. When we get to that point, this might not be such an issue because I will be able to rear cross the tunnels instead. Still, a cue to let him know I'm running into his path and he needs to turn away from me would be handy to have. I'd be willing to wager I don't execute my rear crosses correctly 100% of the time and I'll never be fast enough to front cross him coming out of a straight tunnel unless I get a jet pack! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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