Cowhorse Lady Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Help! My roommate brought a puppy home that was being auctioned off at a livestock equipment auction. The owner (an old farmer) said if they didn't sell, he would bash it's head in on a tree. So my roommate bought one of three pups. And the care has fallen onto me for an 8 or 10 wk old male border collie puppy. His name is Jake and he is gorgeous and, of course, cute, but I am worn out after only 2 days. He weighs 11 lbs. and now has his puppy shots. At first, I kept him in the house mostly, and in a crate at night. The first night I had to take him outside 3 times and didn't get much sleep. But, the last 2 nights, Jake has been great. I put him in the crate when I go to bed and he just lies down or plays for maybe 10 - 15 minutes and goes to sleep all night long. Then I take him out to go potty, bring him back in, feed him, and let him play. But he is a terror when he is awake. I can't take my eyes off him for a minute. He has lots of toys, bones, towel, bed, etc. in the family room. And, in the morning and evenings, I sit on the couch watching him. He is learning "no" real fast, and he knows "come". He doesn't sleep much so when he is awake he is a holy terror. Running, jumping, biting, barking, growling, chewing, you name it he does it. Also, you can't hold him because he is so hyper. He will be still for a minute, then starts wildly squirming, biting, whining, and growling to get down. He is a very happy guy and gets so excited to see me when he has been outside or I call him to come to me, and sticks to my side (feet) when we are out for chores or walks or anywhere I go, so he isn't a mean, aggressive dog, just hyper. And he has a puppy temper (?). If he doesn't like being not allowed to do something, after I have told him no several times (ex: biting. I say no, he stops, then tries it again, I say no, he stops, then he attempts to do it again, but knows not to) he gets really angry and starts growling and barking at me. I have a home business and a ranch that I run all by myself. So, I can't sit and supervise him for hours. So what do you do with a puppy like that? I have never used crates before because my other dogs stay outside. I keep a clean house, so Jake cannot just run around and ofcourse it would not be safe. The crate I'm using in the bedroom at night is very big and heavy. I have a small wire crate plenty big enough for him that I could move around the house from family room to office, but is that necessary? Or should he just stay in one room (family room) when he is in the house during the day, and I go ahead and go wherever I need to go (in the house) without him? I feel so bad locking him in a crate during the day, like a little prison, but don't know what else to do. How long can he be in a crate, especially since he is so hyper active? My roommate says why don't you just lock him up in a stall. (nice guy, huh). Also, is this puppy temper somewhat normal? I have had lots of dogs in my 59 years, but nothing like this one as a puppy. Please help me with my "wild puppy". Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DTrain Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Jake sounds perfectly normal to me including the anger fits. Two of my three dogs have been just like Jake. Jake is a border collie and they tend to be off the deep end. I am sure you will get some good advise but I sounds to me that Jake needs to be on a management program but don't worry he is normal and it sounds to me like he is happy. I will give you some advise an old breeder gave me. Don't break his spirit. I had no idea what that meant until he explained. Allow this dog as much freedom as is possible, allow him to be right on the edge. He will decide to go in his direction and you will decide yours. I am not quite certain I still know what this means but I can tell you that once my dogs made it through puppy stage thay turned out to be fantastic dogs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
afrancis Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Hi Cowhorse Lady, I second what DTrain said; your puppy Jake (who is no doubt very happy to be with you instead of having his head smashed in ) is a normal bc puppy (that being said, you never know what you're going to get -- in regards to cuddling, mine was very huggy but I've heard of many more who were not!). My first advice to you is: Download these books and start reading -- http://www.bordercollie.org/boards/index.p...mp;#entry279221 These are free downloads that Alaska generously provided links to on the Books and Videos section. My second piece of advice is: stop thinking of the crate as a jail. Your puppy needs structure and a safe place that is his sanctuary. He does not view his crate as a jail, but rather a den. I think many would agree that scheduling crate time during the day after he's had a chance to play, be with you, etc. will allow him to safely settle, learn restraint and will ensure he becomes a well-balanced dog. You'll find that asking him to go to his bed (in his crate) will be something he'll do quite willingly after he's had a chance to get his 'zoomies' out. You can use the lighter crate for this (or even an open pen) so it can be moved around more easily. Good luck! And pictures please... Ailsa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizmo Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 He might not be getting enough mental exercise? What you described sounds like a normal over-hyper puppy. It might be good to look into a local puppy training class. It would give him time to socialize with other puppies and people plus give him a good start in life training wise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsms99 Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Jake sounds perfectly normal to me including the anger fits. Two of my three dogs have been just like Jake. Jake is a border collie and they tend to be off the deep end. I am sure you will get some good advise but I sounds to me that Jake needs to be on a management program but don't worry he is normal and it sounds to me like he is happy. I will give you some advise an old breeder gave me. Don't break his spirit. I had no idea what that meant until he explained. Allow this dog as much freedom as is possible, allow him to be right on the edge. He will decide to go in his direction and you will decide yours. I am not quite certain I still know what this means but I can tell you that once my dogs made it through puppy stage they turned out to be fantastic dogs. Guess I'm 0 for 2 with my Border Collies. Leila (90-2002) and Jack (2008-) haven't had anger fits or torn stuff up. Yes, an occasional carpet or book chewed, but no wild running around destroying stuff. They also had their spirit broken, I guess, because we had a few rules and enforced them regularly. I'd recommend training Jake to have a quiet place in rooms you use. I haven't had to do it, but I've read you use a blanket or small rug. Place it next to your foot. Put the pup on a leash and keep it as short as needed to keep him down. Treat when he is quiet, stop when he gets excited. Start with short times, but he should soon learn the joy of rest and be able to handle it. Or so I've read. My 12 week old is sleeping beneath the chair 5 feet away. What helps him is that we have a 6 month old Aussie who wears him out, and then sets an example of resting. Or maybe it is because our breeder wasn't the sort to threaten to bash the heads of puppies not sold... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildFlower Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 I will hop on the crate band wagon. When you need to work the pup goes in his crate with some toys and a treat for a bit. Something like a kong would be great for mental stimulation while in the crate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dal & Mad's Mom Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 I will hop on the crate band wagon. When you need to work the pup goes in his crate with some toys and a treat for a bit. Something like a kong would be great for mental stimulation while in the crate. I'm big on imposed puppy napping and I'm guessing you dont have other bc's who will babysit. I make maddie do that and usually it goes well. esp if it's a herding breed puppy the last 2 have been chi mixes. You will adjust it's daunting to be reminded how energetic a puppy can be again. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 Your tale of woe brings a rush of memories (also known as flashbacks ). My first couple of weeks with Quinn were hellish. I kept wondering if I had brought home a coyote puppy by some horrible mistake. He was constantly active, constantly chewing and incredibly difficult to divert from behavior I didn't want. He had the attention span of a strobe light unless it was something I didn't want him to do which is when he became incredibly difficult to divert. He had little interest in snuggling and like your Jake would give me all kinds of backchat when I frustrated him too much. I seriously considered returning him to the breeder. His saving graces were he was pretty much housebroken at 9 weeks and he was very smart. Crate, crate, crate. I can't even imagine raising any puppy, much less one like Jake without a crate. My dogs were all crate trained as puppies and all still are happy to go to their crates if the occasion should arise. A big benefit of crating is it will help him learn that there are times he needs to chill out. It's only been a couple of days so keep looking for a schedule that will work for both of you as far as when he rests, plays, eats, goes out, trains, etc. Be prepared to be a little sleep deprived for the next few weeks. I like to get up early with a little puppy so I can give him enough time to play and go out a couple times before going into his crate for the morning. Play break at noon, then back to the crate. Even when he came to the office with me, most of the time he was crated or I never would have got any work done. All puppies are individuals. I've known Border Collie puppies that were basically angels. But some do seem like the Devil. This too shall pass. By 6 months, Quinn was excellent around the house and he turned into the most wonderful, loving companion. I frequently hear people comment on how laid back he is. Sometimes he even passes for dignified now that he is 3 1/2 years old. He has a fantastic off switch and much of that I credit with crating. Just be sure to give him lots of opportunities during the day to play and explore and train and hang out with you. Once he sees you aren't impressed with his tantrums, those should fade quickly. You do need to stay a few steps ahead of a Border Collie because they can't seem to help wanting to control the situation and if you let them they'll happily take overl. Enjoy your little guy. In the end we get way more from these great dogs than we put in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyer Posted January 22, 2009 Report Share Posted January 22, 2009 I have an 8 1/2 wk. old pup and his first five days here sound like your pups without the aggression. He was "wild". I work in my home and can set my own hours, so I devoted all my time to him for those days. Lots of plays with me, walks with me, me hanging out on the carpet while he chewed toys, then he had his naps on me. I started on "leave it" immediately to save my furniture and baseboards and towels and boots and clothing, etc. Had lots of chewing substitutes on the ready. I also crate trained. Of course this took a few days so I didn't have it as a comfort. I am happy to say he calmed down in those five days and now can get zoomie, but reasonably so and I take him out when he is like this or I put him in his crate if I have to get something done at that moment in time. He likes his crate a lot and will go in on his own. Calm and consistent seem to have done the trick. I noticed when my kids tried to stop this "wildness" they would get more hyped up when he wasn't responding and this would ramp Colt up even more, so I taught them to stay calm, get his eye and reward with hugs and strokes for even the smallest try from him to calm. They done good!. Good luck. They are so worth the extra effort. Flyer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Do you train horses? If you do, use some of the same approaches. Crate = Stall, you put the pony in a stall rather then letting it run all over the barn for it's own safety and so that your barn stays in one piece. Accepting being held = halter breaking the colt, if the colt has a fit and throws itself around you don't just let it go, you work through it until he accepts that halter and learns to accept and follow pressure. Manners and Discipline = when you walk into a colts stall do you allow them to bounce around kicking and bucking, actually you want them to mind their manners in the stall/barn whether you are there or not. You don't want to wait until the young colt is full grown before you start putting requirements on them, many people will begin when the colt is minutes old (Imprinting - I'm not big on that), then others when the colt is a week or so. I try to get my colts halter broke within the first 2 weeks, and build from there, they are expected to mind their manners and space. Same is true with my pups. I might be a little to strict by some peoples standards, other then a little quiet play there is very rarely any play in the house. I've got 9 dogs here right now ranging from the ages of 9 months to 7 years old all sacked out in different spots. When I'm not in the house, crate or kennel, except Indy who has earned his privilages. Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amelia Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 The puppy is just a little guy, so he's going to play. But, it's just play. He's not out of control, mean, aggressive, wild or crazy. He's a border collie, he's just young and smart. When I bring home a new puppy, I spend a lot of time with it for the first few weeks teaching it to respect me and the rules. I don't let it put it's feet on me and I discourage barking. I teach it to wear a collar and walk on a leash. Not to run from me and to at least stop, and eventually come when I call. I have a fenced dog yard where my dogs hang out when I'm not with them and I have kennels. I suggest you set up an x-pen and keep your crate handy. To make the little guy enjoy those places, feed him when you first put him in. I say "kennel," put them in, then immediately feed them. Just a little kibble each time will cause him to look forward to going in. After they eat, they go to sleep, especially when they're little. Don't leave him there for too long in the beginning, and take him out often to empty. But over time, he'll stay there in longer stretches. By that time, he will be big enough for the dog yard. The quality of the dog he grows into is dependent on your ability to raise him and train him. It's not the puppies fault if he becomes a problem. There are no bad puppies. Think about it and dedicate yourself to him for a while and he'll grow up to be a great dog. Cheers and good luck, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloRiver Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 My philosophy with my dogs in general and with puppies in particular (OK, I have only raised one puppy, and she was relatively easy) is that to be fair to both them and me they are either getting my full attention, or none of my attention -- at least until they can be trusted to mind themselves. I don't do the half attention thing, and I especially do not try to multitask, since I don't think that's fair to anyone. To me what this means is I was always either actively doing something with the puppy -- training, playing, exercising -- or she was in her crate minding herself. That way I could concentrate on my own work without worrying about what she was doing. I always gave her something contemplative to do in there, like chew on a knuckle bone or empty food from a tricky toy. More often though, she would sleep, because while she was out of the crate I was doing something with her that stimulated her mentally, physically, or both. I know people who sit at a computer doing work with one hand and throwing a ball for the dog with the other. That's ridiculous. Structure is important. When Jake matures a bit and shows that he can handle some more freedom you can give him some, but your instincts not to give him too much freedom right off the bat are good ones. If I were you, I would have a small crate in the same room with me during the day, and put Jake in there when you cannot tend to him. Periodically, take him out of there and give him your full attention, playing, training, whatever, and then put him back in there. It's a good way to break up your own workday and take breaks, too. I always loved having the excuse of pottying my puppy when I wanted to get up from my desk and go for a walk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowhorse Lady Posted January 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 I want to thank you all for your wonderful input. Prior to posting here, Jake was getting really rowdy and I knew he was ready for a nap. So, I put him in the wire crate and went in to the office to do some work. He whined and yelped for about 10-15 minutes, then stopped and fell asleep. Ah, peace. This evening, he started getting rowdy again, and I could see a pattern. When he is tired and needs to take a nap, he fights it, and like a small child, starts getting cranky. So, I put him in the crate again, and he whined a couple times, flopped around trying to get comfortable, and wala! fell asleep. I just now put him in the crate, and came in here to respond to you guys, and in 2 minutes, he quit whining. I put a few tiny treats in with him. Yes, he has that border collie "I'm starving" temperament, just like my other border collie, Jack. Everytime you feed him, he eats like its been weeks since he's had food. And a big water drinker, also. Treats? They disappear almost before you give it to him. Jake seems to be extremely smart because in his training this afternoon, he learned to get "off" in this one session. I will continue to use the crates. I can't believe how Jake just stops whining so quickly and sleeps. I have read about the on & off buttons. I guess I have figured out when he needs help shutting down for awhile. Yes, Debbie, I do train horses, and I use the same principles as you mentioned. But, I have been out of the loop with puppies, so your advice of applying the same principles to puppies sounds good. I will try to upload a couple pictures of Jake. They won't be very good cuz he moves before the camera takes the picture. These are the best I could get for now. I hope this works. My roommate had to hold him still so I could get his face. LOL Thanks again to all of you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NC_Y2K9 Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Hi, all! I'm new to the boards and wanted so badly to chime in on this, but had to wait for my registration to get validated. I have a 12-week old terror (I mean puppy!) named Dexter. So yes, I can attest that the off the charts craziness is normal! I joke that I can tell when he's going to go off the deep end because his breathing gets shallow and he starts sounding like an obscene phonecall. ROFL! He's the 3rd puppy I've raised - the other 2 weren't BCs and I can tell a difference....all puppies have their crazy moments but his are starting to be legendary!!! Thankfully, he will go into his crate on his own to sleep, but it did take a few days (and may take a few consistent weeks) of mandatory nap time to get him to get the hint that it is okay to sleep and that the big exciting world will still be here in all its glory when he wakes up again. By way of introduction - here's Dexter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debbie Meier Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Yes, Debbie, I do train horses, and I use the same principles as you mentioned. But, I have been out of the loop with puppies, so your advice of applying the same principles to puppies sounds good. I had a feeling you did, but it's amazing how many people that have horses, don't relate the two. I figured just write it out, someone else may have a "Ah, ha" moment from it, suddenly realizing that they do know what to do and what to expect. Deb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lewie'sMom Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Oh my gosh, Dexter is to-die-for cute! MUST.HAVE.THIS.PUPPY!! I'll pm you my address so you can send him to me right away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Oh my gosh, Dexter is to-die-for cute! He has a bendy tongue! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninso Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 This evening, he started getting rowdy again, and I could see a pattern. When he is tired and needs to take a nap, he fights it, and like a small child, starts getting cranky. So, I put him in the crate again, and he whined a couple times, flopped around trying to get comfortable, and wala! fell asleep. That's what I was going to suggest, but you figured it out first! I have a 1-year old that's the same way--she is VERY busy, constantly moving when she is awake, but when she gets tired it gets even worse and she goes really nuts! I put her in her crate and she falls asleep within minutes! I have no idea what she was like as a puppy, as I only got her at 8 months old, but I assume she was similar to yours and nobody ever taught her how to settle down. Now at a year old, there have been a few times she has actually gone to sleep on the floor on her own after a long tiring day! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsms99 Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 That's what I was going to suggest, but you figured it out first! I have a 1-year old that's the same way--she is VERY busy, constantly moving when she is awake, but when she gets tired it gets even worse and she goes really nuts! I put her in her crate and she falls asleep within minutes! I have no idea what she was like as a puppy, as I only got her at 8 months old, but I assume she was similar to yours and nobody ever taught her how to settle down. Now at a year old, there have been a few times she has actually gone to sleep on the floor on her own after a long tiring day! Odd. Sounds like my granddaughter...maybe she has Border Collie blood in her somewhere! Just wanted to add, since I've thought more about it: If we didn't have a 6 month old Aussie, our 3 month old Border Collie probably would be a nightmare. But Rusty & Jack chase each other, wrestle, and play tug of war so hard that Jack doesn't have enough left over energy to destroy much. And Rusty set a good example for Jack on the pleasures of a good nap. Rusty giving a demo: I think the analogy to a little kid works well. Our Granddaughter spent 10 months living with us - when she was 2! Never again! Like a puppy, she would fight going to sleep, until she finally learned how good a nap feels. Of course, we couldn't crate her, so it took a lot longer to teach! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pili Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Of course, we couldn't crate her, so it took a lot longer to teach! You can't crate children...oops! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllieMackie Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 I know people who sit at a computer doing work with one hand and throwing a ball for the dog with the other. That's ridiculous. Haha, I did this for two days. Then realized it's silly. Finn gets crated while I work now. Generally, he gets a good hour of play, potty and breakfast in the morning, then I work. He's crated for about three hours, then let out for another hour of a small lunch, play, and potty while I make and eat my lunch. He is then crated for 3-4 more hours while I finish work, then he's out playing for most of the evening, sometimes crated for maybe an hour if I need to go out for errands or whatever. At almost 9 weeks, he's got housetraining down pat already, which I attribute to the crate very much. He's learning that the crate is an enjoyable place to be (he gets a Kong, a Tug-A-Jug, or a Planet Dog thing with some kibble in them while in his crate) and whines very little. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PSmitty Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Super cute puppy!! I was going to echo what Melanie and Amelia already said, but it sounds like you've got a good handle on it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NC_Y2K9 Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Oh my gosh, Dexter is to-die-for cute! MUST.HAVE.THIS.PUPPY!! I'll pm you my address so you can send him to me right away. He's lucky he's cute when he's in those "moods". Or maybe spasms describes it better. LOL. I remember reading in a puppy training book years ago that puppies take a lot of naps. I don't think Dexter got that memo! I've been banned from a couple of friends' houses...unless I bring Dexter with me. Good thing I have a healthy ego! ha ha ha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sassy Girl Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 I want to give kudos to those who added suggestions on this thread. I recently brought in my newest in, Sniper (9wks and counting). When I read the original post, I laughed, cause everything your pup does sounds like Sniper. Everything I've done is pretty much what was suggested to you and we are getting by pretty well. He's still pretty crazy and pushy but he is learning to mind his manners. I haven't had a BC pup since my first BC 15 years ago, it's funny how your mind tends to block some things out....lol DTrain - I love the advise you got about not breaking the pups spirit. I believe I do understand.... By the way - this is Sniper...Demon Spawn...he is stalking me.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyer Posted January 23, 2009 Report Share Posted January 23, 2009 Yes, yes, I have noticed that Colt gets zoomiest when he is tired. I only figured this out a couple of days ago. So the crate really is the best place at that time. Cage the wild thing!! Just want to say all the pups on this thread are absolutely adorable!! Flyer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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