Bo Peep Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 I have always taught my dog to walk on a prong collar. This is my obedience dog. Now, I have trouble "free walking" him. Any suggestions? He pulls, do I correct with a flat collar? Or say Usher -here? He does fine on no collar. I know I made my mistakes by letting him use the "collar" as a correction device, yet he has no respect for the flat collar. Thanks= Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osioda Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 How old is your dog? And I have seen this with not just prong collars but it also comes down to a lot of times they just know when you have a leash on them or a long leash for correction, they pick up on every little thing, that is why it is always good to never use the same routine every day I go with collar another day with the rope leash and another day just a strap around him letting him drag an walk, But just realize this same problem can arise in using the constant same routine As it is when some use treats alot of the time to train which I am not saying is wrong but you don't constantly want to give a treat when they do something right. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 As it is when some use treats alot of the time to train which I am not saying is wrong but you don't constantly want to give a treat when they do something right. This is one of the biggest misconceptions out there about training with treats. The food is used to each the dog the behavior. Once the dog knows what you want, you no longer need to have treats to get the dog to respond correctly. I train with treats. When I take my dogs out and about in the world once behaviors are solid, I don't carry treats unless I'm going to training class. My dogs don't turn into brainless idiots when I don't have treats on me - they can still come when called, sit, stay, etc. whether I have treats or not. If you choose not to train with treats, that's your choice, but to imply that if one does choose to train with treats you "constantly have to give a treat when they do something right" is very misleading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 I have always taught my dog to walk on a prong collar. This is my obedience dog. Now, I have trouble "free walking" him. Any suggestions? He pulls, do I correct with a flat collar? Or say Usher -here? He does fine on no collar. I know I made my mistakes by letting him use the "collar" as a correction device, yet he has no respect for the flat collar. You have a lot of options. You could use the clicker to teach him to keep the leash slack. You could also use the clicker to teach him that very light pressure on the collar from the leash is a cue to turn or let the leash go slack. I have never done that, but it is something I've been interested in trying and I understand it's a pretty straightforward process. You could get a front clip harness, which is what I did with Dean. I had a lot of other things I wanted to train with him when we first adopted him, so I skipped loose leash walking. After he wore his Easy Walker for a while, he stopped pulling even when it's not on him (supposedly that isn't supposed to happen, but it did with him). I'd still like to teach the light leash cues, someday when I've run out of other things to work on with him! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo Peep Posted January 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 Great suggestions- very light pressures- LOL, as we are headed toward sheep, does NOT apply. But I WILL try it at it at home towards the park. As far as harnesses go. The next one will be a service dog harness as I am getting worse, I'm sorry to say. Had a good lesson today. Check out Usher's blog. Actually 2 lessons. LOL. It was a rough trip in the fog- don't like to do that- I guess that's why there are no pic's I couldn't even see the sheep. I have so many "coals" in the fire. Not sure which one to take care of each day. LOL. I'm going to try the clicker with him again- he looks at me like I'm a crazy old lady (he's probably right) other dogs did well with it. Thank you so much. I made a mistake. I hope you all learn from this- not always prong for working- then expect them to be obedient on a flat collar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 I PM'ed you the instructions for teaching the light leash cues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herdcentral Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 I train my dogs with treats and clicker. I start off by using food to show them want I want (luring I guess) but fade this very quickly and clicking and treating when they get the behaviour right. I use a high rate of reinforcement when I first start and then I move to variable reinforcement and finally to infrequent reinforcement. This may take some time for some of the more complex obedience training but out in public with heeling on and off leash, recalls etc they are very good and do it regardless of if I have treats on me or not, I guess because they are so conditioned to that behaviour and they like to please me. I did this with my dogs from puppyhood and they are very reliable heeling offleash or on a loose lead with flat collar. I have never seen or had experience with a prong collar so I can't comment on that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnLloydJones Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 After he wore his Easy Walker for a while, he stopped pulling even when it's not on him (supposedly that isn't supposed to happen, but it did with him). Senneca improved enormously after using the easy walker; I no longer use it when I take her out. It hasn't stopped her pulling with my wife, though, so I make sure she wears the easy walker harness if my wife takes her out (which doesn't happen very often, sigh). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 I made a mistake. I hope you all learn from this- not always prong for working- then expect them to be obedient on a flat collar. Can you explain further - I don't understand. The prong collar is many trainers ideal tool for teaching light leash response. They don't get "immune" to regular collars because them, they get better. Even in novice hands. We call a prong "power steering" for a reason. That is...if the dog is not being trained to ignore and pull on the prong. It would have to be very badly fitted, both oversize prongs and too loose, to do that in my experience. Or??? I just cleaned up the heel work on 2 dogs with the prong. Both were dull with a regular collar, not really pulling but not flexing smoothly to requests either. After some sessions with the prong collar instead of the flat we've improved the light touch response in general. I want to flex my fingers and have a dog give me soft acknowledgement and response. You can do the same light tough work with a buckle collar, but the collar needs to be well fitted (high and snug - the opposite of most pet collars) and it requires more time, and often more experienced, hands than the more pointed...LOL <bad pun> efforts with the prong. It's just a duller tool. The clicker takes forever to correct loose leash walking problems and I find most people don't have the patience for it. Also for a lot of dogs dragging at the end of the leash is self rewarding habit. I like the clicker for competition obedience heel training -but that's just a trick, and the clicker is superb for that. Loose leash walking is really not a trick imo, its more about relationship and respect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo Peep Posted January 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 It seems that putting the prong on him makes him realize "it's training time" when he is on a flat collar- NOT training time. He's learned this. I got a great link from Kristine. He's pretty good most times, except when seeing sheep- then he goes bonkers. I've even heard from open handlers that they leave them in the vehicle to avoid this. I would love to have a nice quiet dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 well there's your #1 problem. There is no such thing as "training time" versus non-training time when it comes to basic manners and good behavior. What you accept and tolerate, you pattern and habituate. There are very few dogs that can't be taught to relax and watch while others work. A good working dogs must have patience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo Peep Posted January 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 Thank you- I'm continuing to work on this- we got the sprinkler problem out of the way- LOL. So we can handle anything, right? As always, you have great advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herdcentral Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 The clicker takes forever to correct loose leash walking problems and I find most people don't have the patience for it. Also for a lot of dogs dragging at the end of the leash is self rewarding habit. I like the clicker for competition obedience heel training -but that's just a trick, and the clicker is superb for that. Loose leash walking is really not a trick imo, its more about relationship and respect. I adopted a very fear aggressive dog who was a complete hooligan, pulling and lunging in public and I was at my wits end. I decided to try the clicker and she responded so well so quickly to the clicker training that I had her heeling off and on leash in public places very quickly. Absolutely no pulling and lungeing, she became a joy to walk. This experience completely sold me on this method of training both in competition and ouitside competition and I have continued to use it. I can walk any of 3 my dogs anywhere in public on a loose leash. Respect and relationship can most certainly be built with this method. But I agree it is probably not for every dog and person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 There are very few dogs that can't be taught to relax and watch while others work. A good working dogs must have patience. The doggy version of self-control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo Peep Posted January 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 Oh Usher handles himself well. I was praised at the Dr.'s office where I took my Mom today on how well behaved he was. (BTW-the shots are working great on her back- she might be tap-dancing soon-LOL) We do well off leash, it's just an "Usher here" but going to certain places.......like Kelly's farm or the "doggy park" get him all riled up and he doesn't listen. THAT'S our problem. If we keep sheep, and tennis balls out of the picture we are fine- LOL. I can walk the 2 dogs at night, but not during the day. One is fearful, Bliss, and Usher is excitable. Hope this explains some more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herdcentral Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 Oh Usher handles himself well. I was praised at the Dr.'s office where I took my Mom today on how well behaved he was. (BTW-the shots are working great on her back- she might be tap-dancing soon-LOL) We do well off leash, it's just an "Usher here" but going to certain places.......like Kelly's farm or the "doggy park" get him all riled up and he doesn't listen. THAT'S our problem. If we keep sheep, and tennis balls out of the picture we are fine- LOL. I can walk the 2 dogs at night, but not during the day. One is fearful, Bliss, and Usher is excitable. Hope this explains some more. My fearful dog was both highly fearful and highly excitable, beyond anything I had ever had experience with before and would go totally bonkers at the sight of other dogs. But we did get there with patient consistant training and always keeping her below her threshold level so she was able to learn. I never allowed her to go over her threshold where the behaviours became self reinforcing and increasingly entrenched. I slowly worked her thresholds higher and worked to change the severe emotional resposes she had to certain things. Eventually it was as if some light went on in her brain and she was able to cope very nicely. She was never going to be a quite dog but she did learn to control herself and relax in the prescence of the things that set her off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaraC Posted January 19, 2009 Report Share Posted January 19, 2009 Senneca improved enormously after using the easy walker; I no longer use it when I take her out. It hasn't stopped her pulling with my wife, though, so I make sure she wears the easy walker harness if my wife takes her out (which doesn't happen very often, sigh). Why is you men have the great success with flat collar walking?? I am primarily Jake's trainer, and we worked for weeks on walking nicely. I would stop, call him back to me, treat, proceed with the walk. Even after 1 hour in the backyard playing 'fetch', soccer, basically trying to tired him out a bit. As soon as we hit the road, I am being 'jogged' down the street. I tried the Gentle Leader for a week, and being a softy, I felt sorry for the little guy. I'm over it now, and so is Jake. If he wants a trip around the neighborhood or the park, it's GL all the way or NO WAY! He still pulls, but gently. I have just started pulling back lightly with a "here" as I tap my leg, with a quick treat. It's going well. I do hope to someday walk him with out the GL. So why is it when, I walk with my DH, while he has Jake on the flat collar there isn't a pulling issue? Is it a guy thing? I hope you all can get out for a walk together soon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herdcentral Posted January 20, 2009 Report Share Posted January 20, 2009 No it is not a guy thing, My dogs all walk beautifully on their flat collars and always have along with my other female friends and their dogs when we go walking together before work in the mornings. We did spend time teaching them as we were not going to put up with pulling dogs. Even my fear aggressive dog who absolutely hated the gentle leader was fine on a flat collar. I found it takes a bit of consistant work to teach them but there is absolutely no reason why they shouldnt be able to be taught. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnLloydJones Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 So why is it when, I walk with my DH, while he has Jake on the flat collar there isn't a pulling issue? Is it a guy thing? No, I don't think so. Senneca is very much my dog; she knows that I am in control of all the good things in her life: walks, food bowl, treats and grooming. She respects me; not so much my wife. She knows that when she is out with my wife, she can get away with things she can't with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted January 21, 2009 Report Share Posted January 21, 2009 I think you are looking at a problem that is a little more complex than teaching him to walk on a loose lead. Whenever you put sheep in the equation with a well bred dog that only see's them once a month or so it is very difficult to teach mental control and control the excitement. I would suggest that you put 2 collars on him, a well fitted prong and a rolled leather buckle fitted high up, then put a lead on each. Start teaching him manners while walking on both collars to stock. If he can't control himself, turn around or stop. It takes time but with both collars you can start teaching him "not to pull". It may take a while to get to the stock. You can also use your stick and swing it in the path in front of you - crossing your path on both sides. Strangely enough, I have found that a dog off lead in some cases is more apt to "listen" and behave since the responsibility is on them. Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmilyMiller Posted January 24, 2009 Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 I use an all-cotton fitted collar as a correction collar. It is fitted so that it controls the dog at the highest point on the neck, right behind the ears and right under the jaw. This gives the dog less room to pull and leaves little space for "major" corrections. I've used this type of collar on anything from a rottweiler to my own bc. All the dogs i've trained, which is less than 15 total, have done very well on this collar. Let me know if you or anyone else would like some links to where these collars can be purchased. Hope this helps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo Peep Posted January 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2009 I use an all-cotton fitted collar as a correction collar. It is fitted so that it controls the dog at the highest point on the neck, right behind the ears and right under the jaw. This gives the dog less room to pull and leaves little space for "major" corrections. I've used this type of collar on anything from a rottweiler to my own bc. All the dogs i've trained, which is less than 15 total, have done very well on this collar. Let me know if you or anyone else would like some links to where these collars can be purchased. Hope this helps yes- I would. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.