Minor Vent ...

[afrancis]

What is it with some people???!

 

Today at the doggie designated walking spot through beautiful woods and open fields (massively crowded sometimes on weekends, so I don't usually go then 'cos people who ONLY walk their dogs on weekends are there .... phew) a fat dog jumped on top of Skye and started pretending to kill her. My DH and I both scream, I start yelling, Skye cries and woman says, "She doesn't usually do that"

 

What is it with people whose dogs attack other dogs for no reason other than they might stop to do the sniff dance always say, "He/she never does that" "She's just bossy" or any number of other excuses? I kind of lost it and told her to keep her dog on lead. And maybe more....

 

I should have seen it coming. It always starts with the other dog walking stiffly, tail still and head very still. Not sniffing, just standing there. And owner saying repeatedly, "Be nice, that's a good girl".

 

Now granted, with my first dog Riley, who was not a dog or a person-dog, I would have to talk her through sniffing introductions with other dogs because she could only stand introductions for up to about 15 seconds. After a brief sniff, I'd take us on our way. But she never jumped other dogs.

 

I know many of you think dog parks, etc, are evil and avoid them altogether. Since this is such a nice spot and she often gets a good play out of it, I guess I'll just try to really be a lot more vigilant with dogs who have this posture. I should never give the other owner the benefit of the doubt in terms of reading their dog's body language and managing them themselves.

Ailsa

[bc4ever]

I can identify with your vent! Would be nice to just walk Scooter without someone's off leash brute harassing us.

[mbc1963]

My dog is usually the one with the tail held high, stiff walk. I've seen happy, "friendly" dogs start charging towards us and literally freeze in their tracks from about 15 yards, after recognizing Buddy's signal of "don't be getting all up in my face." It is definitely a posture that says, "Keep away."

 

But I don't take Buddy to dog parks, and when I do let him off leash in the woods, I keep an eye out for dogs behind and in front, and I leash my dog and warn other owners he might not be friendly. (I can actually tell, by the behavior of the other dog, if the meeting is going to go well or poorly. I let him off leash again for older, calm dogs who are body-language savvy.)

 

As the owner of the snarky dog, I have to say I think there are a lot of younger, "happy" breed dogs who haven't learned lessons they probably should have learned early on - how to read the stiff body language posture and adjust their behavior appropriately. My dog lived his first two years on the streets, and he's very, very keenly alert to the slightest move of another dog's eye, the tiniest shift of tail position. We've recently started bumping into a young yellow lab who really, really wants to play with Buddy but never comes bouncing closer than two feet from his body - the young dog is that good at judging boundaries and such. So, I never have to leash Buddy when she's around, because I know she's no threat and Buddy won't react.

 

Flip side: I recently was (I thought) completely ALONE in a wooded park when I heard galloping, and turned to see an 80-lb boxer pup (11 months or so) barreling down a hill right at my dog, who I know from experience does not like the boxer. Buddy was facing the other way, fake-sniffing, doing his best job of not making eye contact and telling the other dog, "No interaction. Don't want this. Go away." I've always managed my dog in the past, but this was just too fast for me to process, let alone manage. The boxer was on top of him, and my dog drove him off.

 

I think Buddy and the appropriate young lab probably learned the body language signals the same way: by behaving badly as puppies, and being corrected quickly by older, more dominant dogs. There are several adult dogs who are friends of Buddy now, but who used to get regularly snarked on by him when they wouldn't stop barreling into his (on leash) body with their (off leash) wiggly puppy-to-teen bodies. At some point, they make the connection. I'm hoping that the boxer will never charge us again.

 

I like this quote: "I should never give the other owner the benefit of the doubt in terms of reading their dog's body language and managing them themselves."

 

Trust me when I say that the snarky dog owners are just as worried about the body language of happy-bouncy dogs approaching as you are about the sniff body language of the snarky dog. Owners of both types of dogs need to be aware of potential problems, and manage their dogs accordingly. My dog's snarkiness is indeed a problem for me - but the boxer pup's chesty, musculuar, direct-stare CHARGE is just as much a problem that the boxer owner should be managing.

 

That's just my "point/counterpoint" on this issue.

 

Mary

[BC-Liz]

I think there's a key point in your response that separates you from the stiff necked, attacking dog afrancis dealt with. You're wise enough to know your dog and to keep him on leash unless it's safe enough to let him off. It seems to me like this fat, posturing dog should have never been off leash. Because the owner did not recognize the dogs body language quickly enough, or could not restrain her dog properly.

 

I'm a big supporter of off leash areas...and I often walk my dogs off leash. But that is because I know I can control my dogs with commands and don't have to restrain them (their OCD with the chuck-it helps too ). It's when off leash dogs cannot be controlled by commands that problems happen. I feel like too many dog owners trust the untrustworthy (like that boxer pup) OR think that that kind of behavior is appropriate and allowable.

 

This is a side vent but I swear sometimes kids are just as bad as untrained dogs. I can't tell you how many kids have come running up to Masi, screaming their heads off at the "puppy" b/c they think she's oh so cute and pettable. Masi on the other hand, used to loath children (thank doG she's gotten better....I think my 7 nieces and nephews helped that one). Anyways, both Steven and I have had to stop kids from running at her, chasing her, smacking her, whatever, and tell them to be slow, and be nice or she might bite you (I do love the look on their face when we say that ). Ok I feel better now...

[afrancis]

My dog is usually the one with the tail held high, stiff walk. I've seen happy, "friendly" dogs start charging towards us and literally freeze in their tracks from about 15 yards, after recognizing Buddy's signal of "don't be getting all up in my face." It is definitely a posture that says, "Keep away."

 

Yes, Mary, I actually agree with you esp. about the bouncing dogs bounding towards dogs that are not receptive and, by this behaviour, provoking a reaction. When I had Riley, somewhat like your Buddy, I had to manage our encounters with other dogs. But looking back on our 'episode' yesterday, there were a few things that did actually differ from the situations you describe (and, in those situations, that I can see being a provocation, in the dogs' eyes, at least).

 

Skye saw this dog from about 20' away and immediately broke eye contact, her ears went down, and she walked toward it very slowly, in an effort to get past. There was no bouncing or charging or even a swift approach. (You may remember quite a while back I posted about her being the "doggie police" with other dogs that are in play mode; she's actually gotten much better with this and I can deflect the behaviour now.) She is actually quite savvy in terms of signals with dogs that are defensive and/or reactive. I remember seeing her submissive posture and telling her its ok, but not wanting to elevate her anxiety by appearing nervous or concerned. They both stopped and stood next to eachother, Skye standing there receptive to being sniffed (she didn't initiate any sniffing) -- which didn't happen, although she was waiting for it -- and after about 3-5 seconds, the dog jumped.

 

So from what I can see, the only way 'I' could have prevented this was to (i) have taken Skye by the collar and taken a very wide berth around the dog, (ii) taken Skye by the collar or called her aside and stood well off the path to let the other dog pass by, or (iii) had her sit next to me to allow the dog to pass. It was clear that it was as benign as Skye's acknowledgement of this dog and standing alongside it was what upset its comfort level.

 

That being said, is it possible that this other dog read Skye's signals as actually being threatening and took a pre-emptive strike? It was clear by the woman's chorus of "Be good"s as they approached that she knew her dog was reactive. Nevertheless, my main beef was the lack of acknowledgement by the dog's owner and the almost immediate excuse-making. No taking of the dog's lead, no chastising the dog, nothing. Its never the dog that's happy and playful that the owner says, "My dog never attacks" -- its always just after an attack that they say that .

 

Ailsa

P.S. Liz, I agree with you about unruly kids. I'm lucky that Skye doesn't mind them, but if they get in her face she runs and hides behind me!

[WildFlower]

I live in the city but I am fortunate enough to open my front door and cross the street to a wonderful park that many people enjoy with their dogs even though it is not a "dog park." It has a large open field in it that is wonderful for a good sniff or a game of jolly ball or frisbee. My Daisy is only 9 months old and while we have been through 16 weeks of obedience and 6 weeks of agility she is still a puppy and at times chooses to not listen to me. I just recently started to let go of her 15 foot leash when we play fetch. I feel that I have a better chance of being able to catch her and correct if need be by leaving it drag behind her as we play. Now to date, I have not had to do this. She has listened and ignored other dogs in the park - again because of that being fixated on the one and only "jolly ball!"

 

But there is a particular individual (and dog) that every other dog owner that I know that frequents the park dislikes. She lets her dog off leash dispite the fact that her dog has absolutely NO RECALL. I have never witnessed this dog actually come when called. There she stands yelling at the dog and the dog comes running over to your dog. Now, her dog is a friendly dog but the fact of the matter is - maybe I don't want your dog bothering me and my dog. She actually had the nerve to ask me why I don't let Daisy off leash!?!?! To which I responded, "my dog does not have a good enough recall yet. A dog should not be let off leash in a public area unless they have an excellent recall." She is apparently a little dense as I had another run in with her and her dog yesterday afternoon.

 

But I must toot Daisy's horn here, aside from this lady and her dog there was another guy with his dog there (very nice guy and dog) and Daisy was just fine ignoring annoying lady and her dog but when she saw the guy and his dog she wanted to say hi. She dropped the Jolly ball and started toward them and I gave the come command she stopped and turned around and came back to me.

[bc4ever]

Another Boxer tale. Interesting....

[Ms.DaisyDuke]

I am afraid that too many owners are either cluless to dog ownership or too lazy to actually do anything about their dogs. It is true that there are those dogs that only get one good romp a week, usually on the week-end at off leash parks. Their dogs are so "high" that even if they did have a recall, it's gone out the window and the owners are too involved in their coffee, cell phone conversation, friends that came with them, ect. to pay attention to what is actually going on. This is why I don't like off-leash parks. Too many things can go wrong too fast, even with friendly dogs. We do go on occasion, just because Daisy loves it soooo much, running in the tall grass, playing in the river and sniffing all the spots where the deer slept the night before. Becuase she is reactive to other dogs, her actual off-leash time is limited, if I see another dog comming I leash her and walk a large arch around the other dog or have her sit and watch me as my bf puts his body between us and the other dog(s). It is a rare occasion when I hear an owner say, "That dog is leashed, let's leave her alone." More often than not it's "Oh, he's friendly, don't worry" as my dog is stiff and rigid because she's just had a full "in your face" assult from another dog. I no longer have a problem telling people that she will bite and that is why she is leashed. She never has and she is getting better every day with having other dogs in proximity to her, but it's just easier to get through to people that way. I guess all we can really do is be a vigilant as possible, we're just humans after all. Not everyone who owns a dog is dog savvy and we just have to be on the look out for those ones.

 

Hopefully Skye is not terribly traumatized by her "fat dog" incident.

[MrSnappy]

My only real problem with dog parks is the ungodly number of people who cannot teach their dogs to not steal my dogs' balls, and then cannot get them to bring them back when they do steal them. They always say the same thing "Oh he/she is so bad. She/he always does this." Well then, if you know this, why don't you DO something about this?

 

Yesterday Tweed accidentally went after a JRT's ball as they were thrown in the same general direction, and I made him leave the chase and the guy looks at me like I'm a monster - "I don't care if he gets my ball" he says. Well, *I* care - being that it's one of my biggest pet peeves, I don't want my dogs doing it to other people! Tweed is particularly annoying as once he fixates on the ball we started out with, he won't play with any other ball. When someone's dog does steal it, Tweed gets very agitated.

 

I feel sorry for most of these dogs, as they just don't get to be dogs often enough, and when they go to the off leash park they become whirling dervishes and overjoyed with the opportunity to just be doggies. My dogs are much better at just being dogs all the time, so the dog park is not a big deal to them.

 

RDM

[BustopherJones]

Ailsa - Your vent is precisely the reason I don't take Annie to dog parks anymore.

[bsms99]

It could be worse. My first dog as an adult was a BC/GSD/collie mix that grew to 100+ lbs. I moved all over in the military, and we would go jogging with Chris on a leash. About once a year, someone would deliberately sic their dog(s) on us.

 

On the most violent occasion, a guy with a white, 150-ish lb dog was a quarter mile away across an open field. His dog was acting aggressive, and he LET THE DOG OFF ITS LEASH AND POINTED AT US! The dog charged, bowled Chris over, and blood went flying everywhere. It looked like the dog was killing Chris, so I found a rock about 18" x 12" and smashed in on the dogs hips as hard as I could. The dog screamed, broke off, and dragged Chris for another 30 yards until I pulled Chris off from beneath him. The owner shouted. I said, "You're next" and the owner ran. When I got Chris home and washed the blood off, I couldn't find any cuts...so I guess 12" long hair helps.

 

On other occasions, people let their Dobermans out of back yards as we went by, loosed a pack of 5 smaller, white chow-like dogs...you name it. When Chris was 10 he broke his back (don't know how), and for the remaining 4 years we were careful about where we jogged. BTW - his hind legs moved like a rabbits after he broke his back.

 

Happily, I now live about 1/2 mile from state land and can take my dogs out in the desert. Some people are clueless. Some are outright malicious.

[BC-Liz]

It could be worse. My first dog as an adult was a BC/GSD/collie mix that grew to 100+ lbs. I moved all over in the military, and we would go jogging with Chris on a leash. About once a year, someone would deliberately sic their dog(s) on us.

 

On the most violent occasion, a guy with a white, 150-ish lb dog was a quarter mile away across an open field. His dog was acting aggressive, and he LET THE DOG OFF ITS LEASH AND POINTED AT US! The dog charged, bowled Chris over, and blood went flying everywhere. It looked like the dog was killing Chris, so I found a rock about 18" x 12" and smashed in on the dogs hips as hard as I could. The dog screamed, broke off, and dragged Chris for another 30 yards until I pulled Chris off from beneath him. The owner shouted. I said, "You're next" and the owner ran. When I got Chris home and washed the blood off, I couldn't find any cuts...so I guess 12" long hair helps.

 

On other occasions, people let their Dobermans out of back yards as we went by, loosed a pack of 5 smaller, white chow-like dogs...you name it. When Chris was 10 he broke his back (don't know how), and for the remaining 4 years we were careful about where we jogged. BTW - his hind legs moved like a rabbits after he broke his back.

 

Happily, I now live about 1/2 mile from state land and can take my dogs out in the desert. Some people are clueless. Some are outright malicious.

 

Wow. I don't know what I would have done...I can't believe someone would do that!

[bsms99]

Wow. I don't know what I would have done...I can't believe someone would do that!

 

I doubt it happens in a dog park. I suppose it didn't happen all that frequently to us, given the many years & miles we ran together. But there ARE people who get excited when their dog attacks someone. The guy who let his Doberman out of the fenced yard was laughing until he realized a 100 lb dog with12 inch hair was more than his Doberman could handle. Then he screamed at me! Another Doberman owner with 3 dogs made no attempt to recall his dogs when they charged me as I jogged alone in a wash...then the ever loyal Chris came out of the brush and put himself between us. Even then, the owner didn't call his dogs until I picked up a rock and said Chris and I were going to kill them. THEN he called them off and they returned immediately. The only vicious Golden Retriever I ever heard of attacked when Chris was a puppy - while the owner stood by and said his dog would kill my puppy! I won that fight on my own with a nearby 2x4...Chris was 4 months old.

 

Dog park owners probably aren't malicious, just stupid about dog behavior. Unless you know for a certainty that your dog will not attack and that you have excellent recall, you shouldn't allow your dog off a leash around others. And some folks shouldn't own any dogs at all...

[bsms99]

The ever faithful Chris, along with our 50lb BC Leila. Sorry about the quality - didn't know Walgreen had dirty scanners!

 

[mbc1963]

Yes, Mary, I actually agree with you esp. about the bouncing dogs bounding towards dogs that are not receptive and, by this behaviour, provoking a reaction. When I had Riley, somewhat like your Buddy, I had to manage our encounters with other dogs. But looking back on our 'episode' yesterday, there were a few things that did actually differ from the situations you describe (and, in those situations, that I can see being a provocation, in the dogs' eyes, at least).

 

Yes, I know you understand this stuff. Didn't mean to imply you were at fault in your incident - I'm just really intense on watching it from the other side of the fence. It sucks being the one who has the reactive dog, when everyone else's dog is just "too friendly." ::Sigh::

 

On a side note, just about an hour after I responded to your dog park post, I went to work and was told by my coworker about a dog incident at a recently-opened dog park near her. She and her husband actually put in tons of back-breaking hours building the fence and such so the dog park could happen. Well, she went there Saturday, and it was really crowded. Typical weekend crowd of unknown dogs. 20 or so, she said. Her dog plays well usually, and approached a poodle twice and was growled at. Apparently, the poodle growled at all dogs who approached. Eventually, my (6-months-pregnant) friend was a few feet away, and a fight broke out between her dog and the poodle. A bystander held her back, telling her not to get involved in a dog fight, then stepped in herself. Whereupon the bystander got bitten. No one is sure which dog bit the woman, but the poodle's owners are unknown and uncontactable. Meanwhile, the bystander has to get a series of rabies shots because the poodle can't be identified as having had a rabies vaccine. ::Sigh:: AT LEAST the bystander is dog-savvy, and takes responsibility for stepping in an putting herself in a position of danger.

 

Sounds like the poodle is like my dog, Buddy - not suitable dog park material, should have been removed after the first growl. Not sure why the woman stayed with him there. Meanwhile, my friend feels like she can't really spend time there, either, given the history. I sure wouldn't, if I were her.

 

Mary

[afrancis]

Yes, I know you understand this stuff. Didn't mean to imply you were at fault in your incident - I'm just really intense on watching it from the other side of the fence. It sucks being the one who has the reactive dog, when everyone else's dog is just "too friendly." ::Sigh::

 

No worries at all ... I do count on hearing your version from the other side of the fence

Terrible about the poodle incident. Skye went through a period of hating standard poodles -- she's better now, thank goodness. I know its tough with a reactive dog - but if you're willing to put in the work (which you have been) I think it can be incredibly rewarding and can make you so much more receptive and responsive to dogs in general.

 

Sidenote:

Just found out that our arboretum is going to start to enforce on-leash only dog visiting http://www.cbc.ca/consumer/story/2008/11/2...dog-081124.html This is where we go every morning for a walk.

Here is an excerpt from the article:

 

"Falardeau said his department gets complaints every year about off-leash dogs and is concerned about the potential for lawsuits related to accidents involving dogs at the farm.

 

He pointed to a number of incidents in recent years:

 

An elderly lady was pushed to the ground by a dog.

One mother was upset after a dog chased and killed a squirrel in front of her five-year-old.

Two years ago, a cyclist was bitten in the ankle.

Falardeau said one time, he was making a speech on the grounds when a dog crashed a picnic and tried to snatch the picnickers' food."

 

*sigh*

 

 

Guess we'll have to find somewhere else to go

Ailsa

[OurBoys]

Josie is one of those 'very friendly' dogs and she will always be on a leash each and every time we leave our yard. Even though she spent the 1st 6 mos of her life on a farm with 5 other dogs, she still gets in other dog's faces and constantly licks them. She'll lick their face, teeth, tongue. JJ's been trying to teach her better doggie manners and I've been telling her 'Leave It' which she knows but she still does it.

 

Last night I told Josie "Sweetie, you have to stop being so loving and affectionate!" DH said "Yeah, right. Being loving and affectionate is a bad thing." I told him "Yes it is. One of these days, she's going to walk up to a doberman or rottie and get her little head bit off. She HAS to learn getting into another dog's face is rude!"

[Sophinator]

Oh my God! mbc. Your Buddy sounds so like my Sophie. When I got to the part about the boxer, I just lost it. Sophie's arch-enemy happens to be a boxer, a rude totally out of control muscle bound boxer. Reading your post was like "Only the names have been changed to protect the innocent." Believe me, I know just what you're saying and I SO agree.

[Liz P]

Wow. I don't know what I would have done...I can't believe someone would do that!

 

Similar thing happened to me. A bully breed dog tried to kill my BC and had to be choked and forced off of him. The owner released it from the leash on purpose. The owner is hiding from me now, trying to avoid paying the vet bills. There are plenty of idiots out there.

[Sophinator]

I'm thinking I should carry an abridged version of Suzanne Clothier's article "He just wants to say hi" and hand it out to all the folks who parade their dog up into Sophia's face despite any warning from me. Me, seeing approaching clueless dog and equally clueless owner: "Sophie doesn't get along well with strange dogs." Owner: "That's OK. He's very friendly...submissive...fill in the blank." Clueless dog strolls right up into Sophie's face and Sophie gets very pissy about it. Face it. How would you feel if someone you'd never seen before in your life came running across the parking lot and grabbed you in a big bear hug? If you'd ever been mugged, you'd be scared. If you felt threatened but able to deal with it you might take the offensive and punch the guy in the nose. To say the least, you wouldn't be real happy about it, even if you sensed no hostility. And that's what Clothier's article is about, friendly but rude dogs who frighten timid dogs and piss off bold ones. I've learned one very important thing about being approached by off leash dogs from Clothier. Unless it's and out and out attack, walk between your dog and the other dog, be your dog's first line of defense. I can't believe how well that has worked with Sophie. She just relaxes and lets me deal with it.