Sick Dogs

[DTrain]

This is a long story but I will try to keep it short while giving as much useful information as I can. My dogs are sick and I have had it. I have mentioned my dog Pete who frequently has stool problems ranging from almost water to almost cement. We have spent hours with Vets and in research and can find so far no reason for this problem.

My wife and I just spent three days of a five day trip with three dogs and cut our trip short because they are all sick. This has happened before particularily with Pete and we cannot figure out why. We just spent three days fishing. We stayed in a motel with great grounds perfect for dogs, we fished on a river with the dogs and we traveled by vehicle a total of six hours. Other than the location, fishing ( which the dogs have done many times with us ) and travel nothing changed yet they are all sick.

Their food and feeding times did not change. Their sleep times did not change. Their play times did not change. They did not work of course but they did get plenty of exercise. Because this has happened before we do not suspect the water and there is little chance they could have gotten into anything they do not find at home. So what is the problem.

On day one the dogs were fine. On the evening of day two Pete started to have loose stools. Dave our youngest dog threw up a couple of times and Mac our oldest dog threw up once. By the morning of day three Pete's stools are water and very frequent. Dave has loose stools and Mac just does not want to move. We brought the dogs home last night and fed them at their regular time, gave them some usual play and put them to bed at their usual time. This morning Pete can't go at all. If he follows the usual pattern he will have trouble going for the next couple of days and his stools will be like cement. His temp is normal although sometimes and again for no reason we can discover he will run very high temps. Dave this morning seems better but wants to sleep and Mac does not even want to get up.

Again, we have seen this before many times. If we follow the same pattern, I will call the Vet, we will take the dogs in, they will find nothing and in a couple of days the dogs will be fine. I can't stand putting the dogs threw this and I cannot figure out what is going on. We go to great lengths when we travel to make sure the dogs follow their same lifestyle as closely as possible, do not get into anything and are safe and secure.

Can anyone help with this. Thanks.

[theshine]

Have they been tested for Giardia? I went through this for a while with bouts of diarrhea every month or so, sometimes one dog, sometimes the other, sometimes all of them. It would always last only a day or two and by the time we got to the vet they would say it's nothing. At first I thought it was the food, but I ruled that out because, really, what are the chances of three unrelated dogs, not even the same breed, all having the same food sensitivities? Anyway, it turned out to be Giardia, treated with whatever that medication is that starts with an M... It's not routinely tested for I don't think, but I would mention it if the vet hasn't.

[Anda]

Yes, giardia. It can easily be picked up from standing water. My dog had it about 2 or 3 times when he was younger than 6 months, until we decided to vaccinate him against it, since he wasn't gaining any immunity by himself from one episode from another. It fixed the problem - that, and not letting him swim in some tiny ponds habitated by geese or in the big Reservoir - where he was picking the nasty bug from each time.

[DTrain]

Hi, thanks, we have tested for giardia but have not found it but I understand it can be difficult to detect at times and timing is everything. We have however found evidence of something of that nature in Pete and he has been treated for it but we still do not know what it is. I suspect that this is the problem. Pete is my main concern, he seems to suffer from whatever he has often and at times very badly. He has been in every situation imaginable where he could have contracted giardia or anything else in that family and I suspect that this is what it is. At times he will run a very high temp and we have again found no reason why and I have been told that this may not be related to something like giardia. Every Vet seems to have a different opinion of what the problem may be but they are guessing and Pete is being treated blindly. Our last trip to the Vet a couple of weeks ago again gave us no results. Every test including blood tests turned up nothing. It is curious that this situation often occurs when we travel. Can you explain in detail what happened or what you saw in your dogs. Perhaps I can make a comparison. I will try to get yet another stool sample today and get it to the Vet asap.

[Shoofly]

Why don't you just get your vet to give you a course of metronidazol for your 3 dogs and be done with it? It's most likely giardia. They can carry it around and a little stress (travel, bitch in heat, anything really) can set them on a bout of diarrhea. It's a cheap drug and pretty safe as i understand it.

[Anda]

What happened when my dog was diagnosed with giardia? Liquid poop for up to a week, multiple times a day/night, up to almost once an hour, accidents in the house when dog was already potty trained, dog feeling miserable. Stool sample confirmed giardia.

[Alaska]

Hi Dave,

 

Basically I agree with what Robin said.

 

I just read an article on giardia in dogs and wanted to pass along a couple of additional points. There are several tests to detect giardia, none perfect, but the best is thought to be the "ELISA" test. Others (float test, fecal smear, etc.) have even lower reliability. Also, it matters who reads the test. Best to have it read in a lab by a tech with lots of experience with same (vs. read at the vet's).

 

However. both the standard drugs for treating giardia are relatively cheap and safe, and can also clear up a variety of other bacterial problems, so with symptoms like those you described, you might as well treat and not worry about testing. You should treat all your dogs at once - otherwise they will just pass it back and forth and you'll never get rid of it. A dog can be a carrier and asymptomatic, so don't assume a healthy-looking dog is giardia-free.

 

The article also claimed that fenbendazole (Panacur, usually given for worms) is actually more effective for getting rid of giardia than metronidazole (Flagyl), and with even fewer potential side effects, so you might ask your vet about that.

 

This is not the article that I read, but it's written by a vet and says many of the same things, with scientific citations to back them up: Giardia in Dogs and Cats: More Common Than You Think

[AK dog doc]

This is not the article that I read, but it's written by a vet and says many of the same things, with scientific citations to back them up: Giardia in Dogs and Cats: More Common Than You Think

 

Yup. I just diagnosed a case this morning. I had one other I suspected (negative on the float) but I'm treating it presumptively, as it is notoriously difficult to find on a fecal sample. Also, it's been quite the summer for giardia-favorable weather up here, which raises my index of suspicion. Not the worst thought to consider treatment so you can assess response. Treatment could be diagnostic AND theraputic, and is luckily not very expensive.

 

Just a thought. Run it by your vet and see what they think.

[DTrain]

Hi, thanks. We just did another test and found nothing again so I have decided to treat Pete blindly with metronidazole. I have tried this before and it clears the problem for some time but it seems to come back. We did find an unusually large amount of grasses in the sample. I forgot to mention that Pete eats a lot of grasses and at times craves grass. We have had situations where in the middle of the night Pete will wake us up, he needs to go out and eat grass. This is almost always at the same time he has the watery stool problem. All of the dogs have been eating more grass than usual in the past couple of weeks and for some reason they have also been very itchy. I will bring this further information to the attention of my Vet but he is stumped. I am not so sure he has much experience with this sort of thing. In the area that we live now Vets see very few working dogs but have plenty of experience with pets. I am no expert but something is wrong and Pete has been in numerous situations where he could have picked up almost anything.

[AK dog doc]

In that case, and especially if you don't get resolution of signs, you might consider following the metronidazole with some fenbendazole (aolso called Panacur). It's a wormer that also will kill the resistant strains of giardia. Up here, at least, about 30% of giardia resists metronidazole, but the Panacur usually gets it... and any other intestinal parasites that have scooted under the radar.

 

Watery, urgent diarrhea is usually coming from the colon, and often causes the stomach to be upset (there's a reflex arc between colon and stomach, so if one is upset, the other often is too.) This may have something to do with why you're seeing grass-eating in tandem with the diarrhea.

[ShoresDog]

I'll just chime in to agree with the metronidazole or Panacur treatments, based on our experience. In July Daisy had the same thing going, including the grass eating, watery spurting diarrhea, etc., and the chicken-rice diet wasn't helping. The giardia test (ELISA) was negative, but the vet here in Oregon put her on a course of metronidazole for two weeks. She also had 30 days worth of Fortiflora, which is dog probiotics (intestinal flora) for the purpose of getting their digestive systems back in balance. She didn't get better overnight, but after three weeks she was much better, and now, five weeks later, I'd say she's back to normal.

 

When Juno came home as a 9-week old puppy, she tested positive for giardia, and the vet there in California gave her Panacur. Maybe there are known to be resistant strains there?

 

Good luck getting the dogs better.

[DTrain]

Thanks, I will switch the medication. If all remains as normal Pete has had a couple of days of very firm stools and difficulty going. He did not go this morning and he began eating grass and clover like crazy. This according to his pattern tells me that within the next day or so he will have a bad case of diarrhea that will last for a couple of days and then he will be back to normal for some time although his diarrhea seems to be happening more frequently in the past three or four months. It is like clockwork.

[Alaska]

Dave,

 

I just want to reiterate my suggestion that you consider treating all your dogs at once. One (or more) of the others may be asymptomatic but carrying the cysts and reinfecting Pete. He can still pick them up elsewhere afterwards, but at least you'll know he isn't getting it from them.

 

Drinking water from the toilet is another good way for dogs to get giardia, but of course no one here lets their dog do that, right?

[DTrain]

I have a long list of things that I do not let my dogs do including drinking from the toilet but of course they can't read and I can hardly keep up with them especially Pete. I will treat all of the dogs but the more research I do and given that the dogs have ample opportunity to pick up giardia this my be an on-going thing. Thanks.

[jvw]

I would also second the Fortiflora suggestion as supportive treatment. Great stuff!!

 

Jennifer

[theshine]

There's alot of good info in this thread.

 

To answer the op's question about what happened when my dogs had giardia, it would start off with soft poo and gradually turn to liquid over the next couple of poos. Sometimes they had accidents in the house, sometimes they acted like they felt bad too, but sometimes not. It generally lasted 12 to 24 hours, and by the time we would get to the vet (4 vet visits total for this, and about 6 total incidents of them being sick) they would be pretty much better. It would be anywhere from two weeks to two months, and the same thing would happen again. A couple of the times it coincided with a stressful and/or exciting event...once was when MiL was visiting from out of state (oh joy) and once when I was dog sitting.

[urge to herd]

For what it's worth, when Buzz was beset with clostridium perfingens, when it was finally nailed down, the vet said that the recommendation was for taking amoxicillin, (I think, this was 4 years ago) was anywhere from 7 days to 30. I reasoned that he'd been on the damn stuff for shorter periods before, so we had him on whichever drug it was for 30 days, and that did the trick. No outbreaks for over a year, and then after a couple outbreaks in 3 months, the vet suggested using flagyl preventatively. He gets it 2x/week, and it's worked like a charm.

 

I'd really consider the prevantative treatment route, it made life a whole lot more comfortable for the Buzzard, and a lot easier for us.

 

Ruth n the BC3

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Aren't you a goose control guy? This is a persistent problem when you wallow in the waterfowl poo like we do. I just use Panacur as a wormer at the rate effective for giardia and have not had a problem since starting this. Before, between the shelter dogs and the goosedogs (I'd get dogs from other trainers with a high rate of exposure), it would hit my gang periodically. I treat every three months year round, annual fecals are always clean as a whistle.

 

You can get Safeguard granules over the counter just about anywhere. It's a three day course. For an active infection I'd repeat in about a week.