Kris L. Christine Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 "Avoiding Dangerous Veterinarians" by Jan Rasmussen, award-winning author http://www.dogs4dogs.com:80/vet . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 I forced myself to watch that whole thing just to be fair . . .but it was just . . .painful. There's certainly bad vets but there's worse practices out there to watch out for, than giving covalent shots. What I particularly bristle at is the idea the the "epidemic" in cancer and other chronic diseases and conditions, is caused by veterinary practices. Other factors weren't even mentioned - genetics, the fact that pets are now surviving conditions that were fatal in the past (it's hard to die of cancer if you have to be put down at seven years old because of DJD or die of HW), and what about pollution? I like the idea of complementary care but I think alternative practices have enough merit to stand on their own, without people needing to attack conventional medicine and blame it for evil motivations and greed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kris L. Christine Posted June 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 Personally, I think the advice to check to see if there is a vet tech or someone who stays with surgical patients left over night in a clinic is excellent. A friend of mine had her scotty neutered and the vet insisted that it stay overnight. No staff was on-hand during the night and there was a violent thunderstorm (her dog, goes wild over loud sounds) and tore out all the stitches and was a mess the next day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 Kris, I'm sure there are plenty of horror stories out there, but I think the main message pet owners need to take away from these types of discussions is that they are their pet's best advocate. If a vet insisted my pet stay overnight after surgery, I would find another vet. Overnight stays used to be fairly common practice, but I have not encountered any vet recently who hasn't let me take my pet home the day of surgery. If there's a huge problem out there, it should be brought to light, but surely some, if not most, of the responsibility for making sure a pet is properly cared for rests with the owner. FWIW, I also agree with Becca about the "epidemic" of cancer. There are way too many variables in our environment today for anyone to claim that vaccines or some other individual thing is the direct cause of dogs dying of cancer. I can understand drawing a correlation between tumors that occur at injection sites and the injections themselves, but I'd be hard pressed to believe that other types of cancers are the direct result of vaccines (or whatever the claim is) without some sort of research to back it up. I also agree that it serves no real purpose to attack conventional veterinary medicine in support of alternative medicine. Each has its merits and many of us informed consumers use both. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kris L. Christine Posted June 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 I think the main message pet owners need to take away from these types of discussions is that they are their pet's best advocate. Absolutely, I agree with your statement 100%. The video gives people some tips on important questions to ask their veterinarian. Dog owners on this forum are pretty informed and may find nothing of interest on the video; however, there may be some who were unaware that not all veterinary clinics have 24/7 coverage and may decide to have surgery elsewhere if their dog is expected to stay overnight. It might be helpful to some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DTrain Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 Most people are reluctant to questions their doctors or vets. The assumption is they know better and best and often we are given advice that does not sit well with us or we are talked into things we do not like. I am lucky. My best friend is a vet so I have access to good information. Because of this relationship I have done considerable study and informed myself. I am certainly not a vet but I have a good handle on each of my dogs and a good understanding of the kind of information my ver needs. When we have a conversation about my dogs I have an understanding of what he is talking about and if I don't I stop him and ask him to explain so I can understand. We moved several months ago and needed to find a new vet. We have visited with several which we were not comfortable with. A couple of weeks ago we visited a new vet again. He asked questions about our dogs and very quickly came to the conclusion that we are informed and willing to communicate and work together with him. This will work. I have never left a sick dog out of my sight for one moment over night. After any surgery they have come home with me and this was explained to the vet and agreed upon before he ever touched my dog. His option was the dog comes home with me or I stay in the clinic with my dog and the vets home phone number all night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kris L. Christine Posted June 25, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 His option was the dog comes home with me or I stay in the clinic with my dog and the vets home phone number all night. A veterinary surgical specialist insisted that Meadow stay overnight after a major surgery for his cancer (they did have a vet tech overnight on duty), and I told them that I would stay with him in a sleeping bag. They relented and he came home at 10:00 that evening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
juliepoudrier Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 Most people are reluctant to questions their doctors or vets. The assumption is they know better and best and often we are given advice that does not sit well with us or we are talked into things we do not like. I am lucky. My best friend is a vet so I have access to good information. The point is that a person needn't have a vet as a good friend in order to educate him- or herself about veterinary care so that they can make informed decisions. Just as with human medicine, the *only way* you will get the best care possible is if *you* (the general you) take responsibility for educating yourself. The "he's the professional, so he knows best and can't be questioned" attitude just drives me crazy. In most cases, I think vets appreciate someone who is willing to be involved in the care and to ask questions and learn. You and your pet can be victims of bad care only if you--the human--allow it. Abrogate your responsibilities and you have no one to blame but yourself (that is, you can't justifiably blame veterinarians when you choose to remain ignorant). J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kajarrel Posted June 25, 2008 Report Share Posted June 25, 2008 What's missing from this is (again) perspective (Thank you Julie and Rebecca). I don't like using fear to manipulate behavior. Christine, I know you're intent is good, but you turn me off from your organization with these messages . . . Kim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herdcentral Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 There's certainly bad vets but there's worse practices out there to watch out for, than giving covalent shots. I have had my share of good and bad vets and it had very little to do with if they gave vaccines or not! One of the worst vets I ever had was into complementary medicine and accupuncture. I like complementary medicine but this vet was just a bad vet for poor technical and decision making reasons and cost me the life of one of my dogs. My sister is a specialist vet who was unfortunately away at the time and she was horrified at the decision making process that led to the outcome. Vaccines, food vets sell, and preventative medicine is way down on my list of what makes a bad vet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 When they are good, they are great, when they are bad, they are horrid. Doesn't seem to be a middle ground around around here at all. Julie is right about needing to be educated on your end, but well...to be fair to who she was answering I will point out that I am extensivly educated when it comes to animal husbandry and science and I still have problems with vets. The lack of update in their education after school, the refusal to believe anyone could possible know more than they on a subject, and the blatent disregard of owner wishes or even humane care is maddening. I don't want to walk into an office and pull the Big Btch routine to get it done right. I want them to be professional and reflect the good education they were offered and the care for animals they they proposed to have when they entered school to begin with. In short I want them to DO THEIR JOB. Without me complaining, or fighting, or having to bring in research to update them by force. In the last 2 months I have had a vet, different vets!, tell me (after HOW much research is out there?) that high protein dog food hurts dog kidneys, that vaccines will never cause a reaction and it's all "whooha", that W Jean Dodds is "crazy" (the other 2 didn't know who she was), that it was ok to cross merle to merle because that's just a color and doesn't cause anything, that Pit Bulls have people killer genes, that hot spots are a myth and don't exist, my dog got burned by a motorcycle exhaust (of which we do not own, nor have near the dogs on the farm)... and best yet, a client of mine who questioned if all the corn in Science Diet could be causing her dogs allergic reactions to his food was screamed at, yes *SCREAMED* at by her vet, in front of all the other clients in the waiting area that "THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH CORN! HORSES EAT CORN! ITS GOOD FOOD!!!!" I don't want to be a magnet for this. I really don't. I propose a toast to good vets - who care what they do, and how they do it. Those that care as much about the client canine and they do the client human. The ones who call back after hours to see if your baby is ok, and thinks as much of your pound puppy as they do your purebred. Vets who read the professional journels and get continuing educations because it's important, who listen with both ears and an open mind when you ask them too. Vets who are willing to say "I don't know, but I'll find out", and do just that. I've got a good vet right now, two actually - and I thank them every change I get. If you've got a good one please do the same - and pay your bills on time, and keep those non-emegerncies to business hours And spread the word - they deserve the business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokjbc Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 This video gave me a good chuckle- what a nut case! Had to address the overnight care issue.. We don't keep staff overnight for hospitalized patients but we don't keep critical patients overnight- they go to the emergency center which is one block over and has overnight care. I'm sure Ms. Zebra Pillows has unlimited dough to pay her pet's hospitalization bills, but the majority of pet owners, especially now with the economy crunch, are often straining their bank account to take the best care of their pet. So before anyone condemns their vet for not having overnight care- keep in mind that it's the "standard" for non-emergency clinics because people simply will not pay for it. We are a mid-range clinic, not a low cost clinic, but our staff costs are a major drain on our budget. If we had to pay an overnight staff and our already highly paid associate to take emergencies and stay overnight- we'd have to raise our prices at least 25% or more (which is about what the emergency hospital and the few hospitals in our area that do have overnight staff charge). We often send stable animals who have owners who insist on overnight care for JUST observation and then the next day they will complain about the $500-$1000 they spent there. Sure, the "best case" scenario is to have overnight care, but clients need to be aware that their vet that doesn't offer it isn't because they are bad or lazy, but because they are trying to keep costs down for both clients and themselves. Sorry.. she just hit a really sore point with me- I work for two of the absolute best vets possible and we don't have overnight care but they save lives and do great things for the community and the local animal charities as well. Maybe we could offer overnight care if we weren't discounting SPCA over $5000 K a month to help them spay/neuter animals. My vets are doing the three year protocol now on vaccines, but aren't big fans of titers although we will let anyone who wants to run them. We have gotten away from Science Diet- for various reasons including that the rep makes my skin crawl- but I laugh whenever I see how Sciene Diet gives vets all these extra "benefits" for carrying their food. The markup on that food is BELOW the normal inventory markup- we get nothing for carrying Science Diet or any other diet and all of the food companies have increased the cost of their food at least 30% over the last two years due to the gas increases. Food is a GIANT pain in the ass for us- but one thing the prescription diets have are studies to predict their affect on certain medical problems. When I have two 14 year old dogs that are cancer free, bloodwork looks fantastic, and aside from a bit of arthritis, are pretty dang peppy on a lifetime of Science Diet and Purina diets, I guess I can't say I would do anything different. I just have to shake my head when a goofy chick with a B.S in Business is given two seconds of anyone's time on this issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebecca, Irena Farm Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 You do always have the option of taking your pet down to an emergency/after hours care vet. Ben's had so many stays in the hospital that I've had some anxious moments on this issue. Finally I did ask the vet about it when Ben was about 3 years old. She pointed out that what animals that aren't in a crises need most, is relief from pain and peace and quiet. I've learned since then the truth of that, from nursing sick sheep. My current vet does last rounds about 9:00 at night, and the techs that open up arrive back at 6:00 am. Additionally, there's someone who comes about 12:00 or 1 am to do a quick check. I bring Ben's bed up (though he hasn't, I think, stayed overnight at our new place yet *knock on wood*) and he is quite comfortable. He's so conditioned to associate the vet with relief of discomfort, that he actually loves vets. Silly boy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaos Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 Wow, that video was actually hilarious fear mongering. Frankly, Kristine if this is the type of source you are relying on then you have just demonstrated a lack of credibility.... this type of thing reflects poorly upon your cause. Sara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lenajo Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 The local vets and I are still at odds as to why it would be better...for a very sick pet on IVs to be left *alone* for 8 HOURS at a clinic....instead of at home with 2 experienced people in charge. The kind of care they present, is illigal for good reason with human medicine. Even if we wanted it there wasn't for the longest an ER vet around here, and the new one is prohibitively expensive for basics. I don't object to paying for quality (and I have, as when Gabe was post op from his shoulder surgery - but that was a clinic where I felt the care justified the overnight costs) but they aren't providing it. Untrained unlicenses techs, no vet in the clinic, etc. When the pet needs to stay in the clinic because he's too sick to be home, he should be checked on a mimimum of every 2 hours, if not hourly. Rest is important, but bleeding to death, lying in your own waste, or IV malfunction rates (getting too little or too few fluids) rates higher in my book. Saying rest is the most important to the point where you leave the pet totally alone...that would be like saying an ICU patient should "be left to sleep all night" with no monitors or check ups. Thats criminal, and humans wouldn't stand for it. I haven't seen the op's video. I hope it's not worse than what I've already lived Vets hurt their own credibility far more than any internet rumor can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaryP Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 Did anyone else notice that her hair matched her pillows? Sorry, but that's all I kept thinking as I watched the video. I, too, don't like the use of fear to try and push one's agenda. I also grow tired of hearing how vaccinations are the cause of all evil in the world. I think vaccinations are far less evil than many of the diseases that they protect against. I'd rather take the chance that I may be increasing my dog's risk for developing cancer down the line than watch him die a painful death from a disease that I could prevent with a vaccine. No thanks. And why are these groups always getting up in arms about the damage that vaccines are doing to their dog's health? Why not get angry with the people in their neighborhoods who feel the need to douse their lawns with chemicals to keep their grass looking unnaturally green and weed-free? Your neighbor's lawn is probably much more hazardous to your dog's health than his distemper vaccination. As far as checking out your vet. Well, isn't that common sense? Shouldn't you always check out your vet, or doctor, or surgeon, or school teacher, etc.? There are good and bad vets out there, just like with every other profession. I have a decent vet. We don't always see eye to eye on things, but he respects my decisions. He's not afraid to send me to a specialist or admit when he is stumped. He owns a small (expensive) practice, though. You get what you pay for. I use another vet clinic for much of the routine stuff, such as vaccinations and spays and neuters for the foster dogs. They are much cheaper, but they are more of a volume business. Though I've been there many, many times, they still treat me as if I were someone just off the street. So, if a foster dog has something more serious going on, I take them to my vet where I know that they will listen to me and respect my choices. We also use a combination of holistic and conventional medicine at my house. But, I'll never abandon conventional medicine, ever. I also strongly believe that it's your responsibility to educate yourself so that you can make the best choices for your dogs. My vet sells Science Diet, but he has never tried to push me to buy it. He's never even suggested it. I chose to educate myself on dog nutrition and my dogs' diets are based on what I believe is best for them and me. Though my vet is not thrilled that I choose to feed my dogs a raw diet, he respects my decision to do so. That's important to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bc friend Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 As long time members have seen me previously post, I consider my vet of 20+ yrs to be outstanding and I cringe at the thought of having to find another one when she retires. Her decisions on overnight care seem to be based on the circumstances and we have discussed her thoughts behind overnight care. She hasn't kept one of mine (cats or dogs) in years. Pets she keeps overnight w/o staff at the clinic usually are ones that could go home IF the owners would provide some extra care - but if they haven't shown they are willing to provide the care or they have children who have been allowed to bother the sick pet, she thinks it's better for the pet to stay overnight for peace and quiet to heal. Pets who need monitoring or treatment overnight, she sends to a local emergency clinic which is nearby and who have had the same supervisor for 10+ yrs. However, there are occasions when a dog does need to stay overnight - even with the most conscientious owners. For example, last summer Sara spent 2 nights at the speciality clinic which performed her liver cancer surgery - it was an extensive surgery on a very old dog and she required more specialized care than I would have been able to provide. I missed her and worried about her but I also knew she was where she needed to be - had something gone wrong, it would have taken me at least 20 minutes to get to a vet and that might have been too long. I just can't imagine having a vet who wouldn't discuss my concerns about my animal's care, including alternative treatments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 I just can't imagine having a vet who wouldn't discuss my concerns about my animal's care, including alternative treatments. That's generally my litmus test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DTrain Posted June 28, 2008 Report Share Posted June 28, 2008 Smokjbc, thanks you just prompted me to write a letter to a vet we visited just the other day. I did not like the care my dog got and I did not like the lack of concern for the dogs problem but I mostly did not like her concern for her own time and budget. I brought my dog in for an ear problem. Had inspected the dog and could not see a problem. I expected the vet to look in the dogs ear as standard procedure. She however inspected the dog without looking in the ear and proclaimed that the dog probably had an ear infection. She left the room and came back with a basket full of medications we could buy to put in the dogs ears. I asked why she had not looked inside the dogs ear. She said, I guess I could and told my how much extra that would cost. She looked in his ear and discovered a piece of grass of some sort. She suggested an ear wash, I suggested taking it out. She took it out and $211.00 later my dog was fine. She and her clinic were extremely well paid for their lackluster effort. I don't care to hear about the money or budgets or how wonderful a vet is to the community or the SPCA. I want and I feel free to demand the best professional care possible for my dogs. I trust you do not assume that all vets are great and all animal owners are uninformed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelpiegirl Posted June 28, 2008 Report Share Posted June 28, 2008 dtrain IMO that's the MINIMAL the vet should have done (look in the ears). For goodness sake- you came in with an ear problem!!! I have ear problems at the moment- I think just sequellae to a cold (man I am using that word a lot), and I called my dr expecting them to give me some otc advice. No, they want to look at my ears. DOY! Any vet who doesn't bother to look at the problem area unless you ask them to, you need to find a new vet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokjbc Posted June 28, 2008 Report Share Posted June 28, 2008 Smokjbc, thanks you just prompted me to write a letter to a vet we visited just the other day. I did not like the care my dog got and I did not like the lack of concern for the dogs problem but I mostly did not like her concern for her own time and budget. I brought my dog in for an ear problem. Had inspected the dog and could not see a problem. I expected the vet to look in the dogs ear as standard procedure. She however inspected the dog without looking in the ear and proclaimed that the dog probably had an ear infection. She left the room and came back with a basket full of medications we could buy to put in the dogs ears. I asked why she had not looked inside the dogs ear. She said, I guess I could and told my how much extra that would cost. She looked in his ear and discovered a piece of grass of some sort. She suggested an ear wash, I suggested taking it out. She took it out and $211.00 later my dog was fine. She and her clinic were extremely well paid for their lackluster effort. I don't care to hear about the money or budgets or how wonderful a vet is to the community or the SPCA. I want and I feel free to demand the best professional care possible for my dogs. I trust you do not assume that all vets are great and all animal owners are uninformed. I'd be interested to see that invoice. That wouldn't be high at my clinic IF the animal was sedated to get the foreign body out of the ear, but I agree that I would be troubled with the vet not looking in the ear for an ear problem. There was nothing in my post that supported the kind of care that your got for your pet. I don't assume all vets are fantastic, in fact I had to testify against one I managed a practice for- he was a horrible vet and was more concerned with money (and I suspect either a gambling or drug habit, or both) than animals. Money for himself or his habit, not money to put back into the hospital and staff- there is a difference! I witnessed horrible things done by this veterinarian and dozens of examples over the years like you give above- not criminal neglect but general bumbling and incompetence from a few others. After so many years in the business though, I know these are the exceptions. Most vets, while reasonably wanting to make a living, care deeply for their patients. In the real world, vet clinics operate under budgets I think would really surprise people. We aren't just supporting a doctor's office type facility, but a full fledged hospital with state of the art equipment. Lenajo pointed out that many vets employ less than qualified employees, because qualified, licensed techs are both expensive and hard to find (we find them them though and send our good assistants to school!). You can expect the best possible care for your pet- but you should expect to pay for it. I think you missed the part of my post where I said we were trying to control costs for our clients as well. The owner and I have been debating with our associate- she thinks we need to raise our spay/neuter prices to reflect the area (some vets in our area are charging $300-400 where we are still in the $150-$230 range w/ bloodwork, iv cath/fluids, pain meds, etc). We feel strongly that spay/neutering is an important procedure for every pet- and we aren't ready to penalize owners for doing the right thing- I really hate to hear of clinics with that high of prices. Maybe we shouldn't give so much to the SPCA, it certainly puts a strain on things sometimes- but I'm proud that my vets can do this for the community AND still kick ass when it comes to saving pets lives. My vets go above and beyond both for their patients and the community. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted June 28, 2008 Report Share Posted June 28, 2008 What a story about the ear problem! That's ridiculous! I recently took one of mine in for a foxtail in the ear--I was sure that's what it was, as I basically "saw" it go in there as she was working. Anyway, it was $57 to snag it out. But, still that's a lot, and when my otoscope gets here, I have the tool for snagging the foxtails, so then it'll be free... My vet isn't ever cheap, but she does trust my opinion and is very willing to listen to my suggestions. I think over the years she's realized that I do have a brain, and I just might have a clue as to what I am talking about. I wish my large animal vet could be my dog vet. There are 4 guys in the practice, and all of them are great, but the one I work with is especially good to work with. When I get the card in the mail that my horse is due for shots, he tells me to save the ranch call and just stop by the office to pick them up and give them myself. When my ram was not eating a month ago, after giving him what shots I felt were appropriate and taking his temp, I called him to ask for further suggestions. He said I had done all the right stuff so far, but to keep him posted. When it got hot that afternoon, and he was still not eating or drinking, I called and asked what else I could do. He asked if I had electrolytes, which I did; he directed me to give some every hour. This went on for 3 days--shots, electrolytes, mineral oil, etc. After 3 days the ram was eating again, and apparently will live to sire many more nice lambs. Anyway, the point is, this guy trusted me and my basic knowledge of animal health and care, that he did not think it was necessary for him to come out. He was cool with me just calling directly on his cell when I had another question. When the ram was finally eating, I just snapped a pic of the ram bellied up to the bar with my cell, and sent it to him. He called back thrilled that WE had saved him. This vet is the greatest. A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue R Posted June 28, 2008 Report Share Posted June 28, 2008 When you have (as Anna does) a good relationship with a great vet, that involves mutual respect, you have the best situation. You have to work for that, prove to the vet that you are trustworthy, responsible, and capable, and be willing to go elsewhere if your vet won't work with you or give good care. You also need to realize that the vet has training that you don't have - sometimes I'm right and sometimes I'm not. I have had a couple of instances recently where I called the vet clinic and the front staff "let me down" - one was to enquire about ordering a particular vaccine that they don't normally use and the other was with regards to a dog with a suddenly squinty, sensitive eye. In the first case, the staff told me they could order the vaccine in a 25 single-dose package for almost $200 (that I would have to pay in entirety), the vet could administer the necessary three shots (one for each of three dogs), and they would not allow me to take the remaining doses but would dispose of them. I spoke to my vet shortly after and he said that anytime I had a request like that, I should talk to him and not to staff. He would have handled that request differently. After all, staff have rules that they need to follow and the vets can make decisions that the staff cannot. So, when we wanted rabies vaccine for our large animals but found having a large animal vet come out and administer them would be prohibitive, my vet got the vaccine ordered in a cost-effective packaging and offered to get me the needles and syringes as well, so we could vaccinate the cattle and horses ourselves (WV will not allow anyone but vets to have rabies vaccine shipped to them). The second situation was regarding Bute's eye. The (fairly new) receptionist said that the first open appointment I could get would be two days away. I called back shortly and got a more experienced receptionist who knew me, and she said to come right on in and they would work him in, as "eye problems should not have to wait". Thankfully so, as he had an injury to his eye that needed treatment. A lot depends on who you talk to in the office, your relationship with that person, and having a mutual respect in place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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