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[juliepoudrier]

Okay, I haven't actually been doing much in the way of training--work and lambing has just made it rather impossible over the past couple of months. But as I have an ongoing issue with one of my youngsters, I thought I'd post and get some ideas from the rest of you, especially since we've been slow on training tips lately.

 

This youngster, who turned 2 at the end of January, is either stopped or full steam ahead. As we all know, pace is a nice thing to have, but I'm not getting it on her. When I first started her, I would have said she was a bit clappy (in fact, I still say that), and she will still lie herself down when she senses (?) she's pushing too much, rather than just backing off a bit. She's quite speedy and I don't want to take that out of her or in any way encourage her to be sticky. If I put pressure on her to slow down, her response is to lie down. If I give her a steady whistle, her response is to lie down. If I give her a steady immediately followed by a walkup (the idea being to give her the walkup while she's still "thinking about" the down/steady so that she just gives a hitch but doesn't actually stop), she will already have hit the deck before my walk up whistle is out of my mouth (did I say she's speedy?).

 

I can work her like she is, but it can be a bit of a wild ride (you better have some timing) and my ideal picture has her giving me gears when I ask for them, so I'm looking for ideas on getting those gears on her without losing the speediness or enhancing any tendency toward clappiness.... Thoughts?

 

J.

[NancyO]

Hey Julie,

 

have you tried teaching a stand instead of using a lie down. Saw this work with a friend's dog that was pretty fast and clappy. The dog was taught to stand off sheep, as you would teach the dog to sit or lie down.

 

When on sheep, ask for a stand, if she lied down, tell her either stand or on your feet, which would be the command to get back up onto her feet rather than lying on her belly. You'll need to go back to walking next to the dog and if asked to stand and she lies down, then you may need to physically encourage her to stand ( a hand under the belly) and then move foward again.

 

The other thing to try would be to correct her if she lies down and wasn't asked to. So if she is moving along and you ask for a steady and instead she lies down, then give her a "heh" and have her get back up again. This worked for a bitch I had that liked to move along on her belly (people use to call her a dust mop), but I wanted her up on her feet. This dog actually developed pretty nice pace by working her in a square with me in the center.

 

Nancy O

[stockdogranch]

Back to the round pen, to get her to feel her sheep and think? Sounds like she's not feeling her stock (or is not comfortable feeling them).

 

Sounds a bit like one of mine, who had been started elsewhere, and taught that rushing in to bite (cattle) was great. Everything she did was at full speed ahead, only when she got in close contact, rather than lie down, she would hit the first body part she came to. Anyway, when Jack was here, he had me take her back to the round pen so she could learn to think and feel her sheep (even though she could drive and has inside flanks and all). It worked GREAT; then we progressed back to open areas and then to calves. She had a bit of adjusting to do with the calves, as their pressure was far greater than that of sheep, but she has gotten it, and is now a totally different dog (in the matter of a couple of months).

 

A

[Oz Collies]

Hi Julie,

 

Im only new to this site, and am still feeling my way around.

 

I teach all my dogs to revers up (keep off)and find that this gives them another oppion when the press is on, I also use keep off command when they are sneaking in when told to stop and when squaring up the flanks. If you don't know how to teach a dog how to back up just ask and I will do my bet to explain how.

 

Best of luck

 

Jamie

[Mark Billadeau]

Julie,

 

I taught Peg "gears"/pace while balancing. I changed the balance point very slowly while giving my pace command ("time"); to be correct (on the balance point) she needed to move/flank slowly. I also reinforced the get back because Peg would spiral in while flanking slowly. Once she got the concept balancing I moved the lesson to fetching and driving. I've done some of this with Nell and she seems to get pacing.

 

Any time you want to race, I'll put my Nell up against your pup any day.

 

Mark

[1sheepdoggal]

Hey Julie,

Is she comfortable/confident with what your asking her to do?

Does she need to be able to relax a little more?

I was told once, (or 10 times) that if ya run into a problem, to let them work at whatever thier doing right, and they enjoy. Dont ask them to do something they will do wrong, for a bit, just ask them to do some thing they do well. We dont want them to build bad habits, just want to encourage the good ones. Let her enjoy working and doing things the right way. She will develope more confidence during this time, and relax, and the habit will (hopefully) start to disapate, through being able to relax more and gaining more confidence.

Balancing is a dogs most basic element, and dogs love to do it. Anytime you want to take pressure off a dog, go back to balancing. Dont just have her go in circles, mix it up, with figure 8's and zig zagging. Rather than asking for pace, you set the pace bringing it along slowly. Pace is a very difficult thing to teach, especially for a fast keen young dog, and takes a long time to teach. Weeks, months, and in my case with Chris, maybe even years!

And if you and Mark decide to have that race, I want in too!

[Shoofly]

This is Lark, right? Would you say she's more of a line dog (boring right into the sheep) or a flanker?

[juliepoudrier]

Yep, it's Lark. As for boring vs. flanker, is that a trick question? I would have said that she's more of a boring dog--at least she's always been willing to keep pushing forward as long as there was something in front of her to keep pushing on (that is, if she were bringing me the whole flock she'd keep pushing straight in and let sheep peel off the sides, like the cheviots used to tend to do, as long as some stayed in front of her). At the cattle trial the weekend before last, however, she did her own flanking on the fetch to try and keep them together as they tended to spread out in a line horizontally. So as she's matured a bit (or maybe it's just different stock), she will take the intiative to flank to hold a group together. I don't know if I'm answering your question or not....

 

I've always felt that perhaps she doesn't feel her stock as well as she should, but then there are times when it's quite evident she does. So I'm beginning to think that maybe she just doesn't know how to pace herself and I apparently am not doing the right things to help her.

 

You've seen Pip. He takes a steady and gears down like a champ (well, most of the time anyway), so he's obviously getting what I'm asking where she's not. Then again, he's not inclined to stop (where she's very happy to), and that's probably the difference--he'll give me the gears because it means he doesn't *have to* stop, while she automatically takes everything asked for pace as a requirement for a stop.

 

J.

[Mona Howard]

I'm interested in the replys for this too as my older dog will do this

at his distance work. He's always wanted to jump off the mark. Mine is

too old and set in his ways to fix though I guess.

[Shoofly]

The reason i asked is that i'm wondering if you could give her a little flank, then ask for the "there/steady", see if that keeps her on her feet a bit. I might not do it with a dog inclined to flank flank flank but it might work on a boring dog. The flank will give the sheep just a bit more room and she'll feel less inclined to drop because she's too close. Over time you could drop the little flank and not have lost her straight walk up because her natural inclination is to bore in. The idea is to ask for the steady when she turns on her sheep and is more likely feeling them a bit more anyway.

 

You might also try working her on one or two sheep and see if a little more eye helps her give you pace.

 

Oh, as for Pip - they have very different kinds of eye, i think. It's been awhile since i've seen them though.

[Shoofly]

Mona - you could try giving him a down, then asking him to walk up and putting him right back down before he even gets a good start forward (like before he gets a full step in). Do that a few times in a row and see if he doesn't get up expecting to be put right back down, and walk forward slowly because he just knows it's coming. As long as he creeps forward, let him go. As soon as he starts getting above that creepy pace, drop him and do it again. You're not really working on pace here, instead you're correcting his initial rise from the down.

 

Note - this is an exercise to be used with caution on a clappy, not-sure-i-want-to-walk-up sort of dog. But as long as it's used in a gentle sort of manner and not overdone, it's okay and works very well on dogs that have gotten in the habit of exploding off the ground on a walk up command.

[Denise Wall]

What is she like off sheep? As in, is this her basic personality?

 

My Kate, as you know, is fast as blazes and lacks much feel for distance balance, both going around and behind sheep. However she's also like this off sheep. Sometimes I see flashes of things that make me believe her basic exuberant temperament is overriding her inborn feel on sheep a bit. Seeing how her nearly 1.5 yo pups are turning out on sheep reinforce that feeling.

 

If true, I don't know what to do about it other than let the work bring out the natural over the keenness and excitement. But I thought it was worth throwing the idea out there. Lots of times I read all kinds of things attributed to dogs doing this sort of thing on stock -- scared of sheep, afraid they can't move them, etc., when I wonder if it's not just how that dog is all the time. I mean, surely they aren't afraid or insecure when they're running full speed across the field with no stock there. They just like going fast.

[juliepoudrier]

I'll try the suggestions with her hopefully this afternoon (um, around halter training my show sheep, LOL!) and see what helps. I don't know how cooperative my sheep will be, however. I'm hoping I'll be able to make it up your way Robin after things slow down after Dr. Ben's. By then I will have weaned lambs and my sheep feed expenses should have gone down, which means I might be able to afford some gas!

 

[An aside

Robin,

I forgot to brag on Pip--P/N was the largest class the past weekend, with perhaps 20 or so dogs. The Pipster tied for fourth with a score of 70, but lost the tie to Pam Gardner's Rom (4th) and Lark (5th) to place 6th. I was proud of the big ox. This weekend was the first time he's made it around a trial course in some semblance of control--past runs have usually ended with Pip riding a sheep off into the sunset....]

[Shoofly]

Way to go Pip! You know i've always liked that big lug.

[juliepoudrier]

Hey Denise,

She's as exuberant off stock as she is on. Everything is quick, even in play. Her mother is also little and fast. Come to think of it, she's the exact same way off stock--either full speed ahead or flat on her belly.

 

You know, when I said she was flanking to keep the calves on line on the fetch at Roy's I had forgotten about another part of the run where her more boring nature took over. Some sets would try to run to get to the barn, and Lark was quite willing to go to their heads and bite noses to stop them (something she generally does not do with sheep), and if you got them away from the barn the easiest thing to do was to bring them down the fenceline a ways before trying to turn them back on to the drive line. When we got them off the barn and going down the fenceline, if a calf started to lag, she'd keep pushing in on the other two, giving the lagger a chance to turn back toward the barn because she was busy pushing right past him. I don't know if that gives anyone any more insight, but at the time I kept thinking that since I was also behind the calves that perhaps she was trying to push past and go to balance instead of staying on the same side I was, but maybe there was something else going on.

 

I need to get a video of her working so y'all have a better idea what I'm talking about.

 

J.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I would have said that she's more of a boring dog

 

Lark is not boring!

 

Hee! Sorry, someone had to say it.

[Shoofly]

I need to get a video of her working so y'all have a better idea what I'm talking about.

 

Gael did the same sort of thing, locking in on the center sheep and boring in so hard that the outside ones would drop off. It was kind of funny when she'd "come to" and realize she was surrounded by sheep. That flank thing will help if your sheep will cooperate.

[btrent]

It is possible to let the dog learn to "gear down" on its own. We are working on that with my Bid dog (who is nearly 9 years old but he's picking up the idea). He has a pace that he likes (fast trot) that is a little too fast for trialling. But with a lot of long driving lines and a soft steady whistle (and not stopping him constantly, in fact not stopping him completely at all unless I absolutely have to) he is starting to feel the bubble of the sheep better and pace himself back down of his own accord. I am probably not explaining this correctly. My trainer is helping me with it in the very wide open spaces.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Julie, I know I said I wasn't going to make any suggestions publicly but this just occurred to me - how is she holding sheep on a fenceline?

 

When Robin mentioned Gael walking into the sheep until they dropped off, I was reminded of a dog I used to have, who'd do the same thing. I discovered by accident, that using her to hold sheep on the fence stopped that. If she just marched in and disregarded the "feel" of it - the sheep would start popping off to the sides like popcorn. She didn't like that, and after about four hundred times of having to fix it, she figured out how to keep from making it happen.

 

Possibly with a better handler she would have had help figuring it out, but thankfully she was a forgiving dog in that regard.

 

This doesn't work, by the way, with a dog that is boogering the sheep to stir things up. Ie, a dog that prefers flanking or one that is afraid of the sheep coming to a stop. That kind of dog will do the above exercise all day --->voice of experience<----

[Mona Howard]

Thanks Robin, I will try this with my Willie. He's not clappy at all but super keen.

He's afraid to lose contact with his sheep I think. I wish I had addressed the problem

early on like Julie, instead of trying to fix a bad habit. Will be more careful with the

pupster. Mona

[Kerales Farm]

Gael did the same sort of thing, locking in on the center sheep and boring in so hard that the outside ones would drop off. It was kind of funny when she'd "come to" and realize she was surrounded by sheep. That flank thing will help if your sheep will cooperate.

 

Well that describes one of my dogs to a "t"!! She looks so suprised when she "wakes up" and finds she's "forgotten" half the flock! WHat did you do to help Gael sort it out?

thanks,

Leslie

[Shoofly]

Sorry, i'm trying to get ready to leave for a sheepdog trial so i'll have to answer next week. I'll try to put it in my blog.

[Burnandreturn]

Hello,

 

After reading your first post I would definitely teach your dog to stand and not lie down. I want my dogs to stand when I say stand, not just slow down. I see some people letting their dogs keep moving when they tell them to stand. The dog stops but then takes very slow steps forward. Stand is stand. Take time is take time. When working the sheep the moving stand might not have any adverse effects on the sheep in some situations, but the dog is not following a command and that is not OK with me. For many reasons I would not use the "there" command on a flank with this dog that has a tendency to bore in and not find its own good pace.

 

Regarding the stand. Stand means stand. If they lie down when you tell them stand, then they have not followed my command. I don't then give them another command, such as "get up" or "on your feet" if they lie down. I correct them for the down because that is the command they did not follow. I want my dogs real clear about things, it is easier for them and for a dog that has a tendency to push in, for me it is an absolute. I always try to keep in my mind what they do when I give them a command and more importantly what my reaction is to what they do. Just imagine if you were watching a video of the dog with no sound. You might not realize that the dog is not following the commands actually. All might look fine as to what the sheep are doing and how the dog is working, but it is not "real". The handler might be using multiple commands to get one thing done.

[Margaret Johnson]

Hills help one of my dogs if you have access to them.

[juliepoudrier]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I will be weaning lambs this week and then can try to use some of your ideas on the ewe flock. Mark, your suggestiun makes great sense--I just have to find some sheep that are more dog broke so we can actually work on slow flanks on balance. Unfortunately my karakuls tend to be a bit flighty (to put it mildly) and so move quickly, which isn't conducive to slow flanks, even in smaller areas. I figure once I get past all that's going on this month I can pull out my yearling ewes and see if I can't dog break them to the point where they're more appropriate for that type of work, since I don't really any have any training sheep any more. The main flock is really more appropriate for experienced dogs than youngsters, unfortunately.

 

Burnandreturn,

Thanks for the reminder to use the "correct the wrong" method that Jack Knox tries to instill in all of us when we're at his clinics. I've actually been trying to encourage her up when she drops on me rather than just correcting for the wrong thing (Jack would call it making her right instead of letting her be wrong and then figure out what's right after being corrected for the wrong). I'll give it a try and see if it makes a difference. It's the same method we used when her eye was causing her to stop short on the outrun (that is, correcting her for stopping, then asking for the flank again, but letting her choose where to stop after that....).

 

 

Becca,

I need to catch lambs for vaccination, etc., so it will be a good time to put Lark to the test with the holding sheep on the fence/in the corner (this would normally be a job for Twist). I suspect she'll focus on the few in front of her and let the others "pop," but we'll see! If you want a fine weekend away messing with lambs, let me know! (After all, I'll need some unbiased help picking out my next generation of show sheep--ha!ha!)

 

Margaret,

I'm not sure what you mean by hills helping, but the pasture we generally work in is a terraced hillside, but she can push them as fast up a hill as she can on the flat.

 

If I can get someone to tape her this weekend, I'll try some of the exercises mentioned here and post the results for y'all to see.

 

J.