Usher's lesson

[Bo Peep]

Well, it's been a year since Usher saw sheep. Nope, he didn't forget what they looked like- LOL. Of course this time he was much more manageable because he was a wild child and is now grown into a mostly behaved adolescent dog. Before I said a word, Don said "That's one stubborn dog!" I knew that. He also said he had a lot of eye and I knew that. He said he was a very good trial potential dog and said "I know better than to make you an offer for him, right?" Yep. he was right. I knew he would stay at a good distance from the sheep, which he did and Don handled him quite nicely. Now onto the bad news. What I have with Usher isn't a good choice. I don't have the property or the sheep to train him and I would need help with him as he is more difficult to train than my other dogs were. So, if I want Usher to be a trial dog, I would lose him as a service dog. He's been such a good service dog for me, I really don't want to lose that. I asked Don about finally buying a trained dog. He was surprise I never had. I told him all the dogs I had before I started myself. I thought he knew that, but I guess you learn something everyday. It's an option to think about when you don't want to get out of the sport and still want to keep your dog as your service dog. Here are some pictures of Don working Usher.

 

[juliepoudrier]

If it's any consolation, there's no reason why you can't continue to go to a trainer for help when you can. Yes, your progress might be slower than if you were able to train at home on your own sheep more regularly, but I don't see why he can't stay your service dog and just train for trials as you can.

 

J.

[Bo Peep]

All in all it was a great day. I was there for an hour and a half. It only cost me $30.00. It was fun catching up and have a pro's view of Usher. Now it's decision time. What to do what to do?

[Chesney's Girl]

Just wondering... Why would you lose him as a service dog if he keeps training for trials with you?

 

He looks good in the pictures

[Laurae]

Hi Dianne,

I'm glad to hear Usher did well. But I confess that I don't understand the problem. Why can't Usher continue to be a service dog and also be trained to work stock? Is it because you feel like you'd have to send him out to be trained? Why can't you just keep taking lessons (especially since you don't have your own sheep anyway--I mean you'd have to travel to see sheep in the first place, why not take lessons if you need them while you're at it)? Some folks have told me I could get a lot farther with Taz a lot faster if I sent him out for a few months. But that's just not the way I want to go. We'll get there eventually doing it this way--I don't need to trial him in open Right This Minute. I know different people have different goals, but I don't understand why you need to trial him right away if it would mean you'd be without his help as a service dog while he gets trained up (especially since you haven't done any stockwork at all for the past year)?

[Bo Peep]

Yes, Don thinks that with his temperament, being quite the stubborn dog- he would have to work him on a regular basis, thus sending him away. This means I could not "use" him for me at home. I have had many border collies and done a lot of rescue work and have never seen one so hard headed.

[Laurae]

So is there any reason you couldn't just take lessons with Usher at Don's? Are you in a big rush to trial?

[Bo Peep]

Always in a big rush to trial. Aren't we all? Yes, I can continue with Don. He just told me honestly, that Usher needs a lot of work to get him in shape to trial and he didn't want me to waste my money. He IS hard headed. Don will be gone for 2 months in a bit touring and judging. When you get such a great trainer, they are always busy!! I know he noticed the decline in what I used to be able to do and what I can do now. He asked me if I could walk backwards anymore and to tell you the truth- I'm not so sure. THAT puts a damper on starting a dog. Did you notice with my little crummy camera how much dust Usher kicks up? He's a fast one. I'm not sure, even though I cut back on my meds (because I WAS getting goofy) that my brain can think as fast as it used to. Not knowing if it's the meds of the dystonia, but I notice something is wrong. So, I will need help with this one and maybe just letting Usher be my service dog and getting another to get my "fix" in trialing might be the best thing for me. Of course, Bailey would have to be placed then, but my boyfriend really loves her, so that's pretty easy. I'd get to see her all the time. There is NO ONE in the dog world, that I trust more than Don to find a dog that suits my needs. I can honestly tell you that Usher is just as happy working for me as a service dog as he is working sheep.

[orionbc]

it seems to me it would be a waste to not train usher... since he is getting rave reviews of how good he could be. it also seems that it would be hard on the poor rescue dog who thought she had a forever home to get tossed out for another dog. and maybe the thought of buying a trained dog is good... a trained dog still needs to be worked! what happens if you spend the money on buying a trained dog, and then can't get to sheep for another year....

so it might take longer if you do the training yourself, and not send him out. but the rewards in the end are far greater with something you have acomplished yourself! i can understand needing help in the beginning due to physical challenges, but after a certain point you could be doing the training.

i have a young dog that would definilty benifit from being sent out, but that would defeat the purpose of having that bond and the relationship from the training together.. and eventually on the trial feild.

 

Kelli

[Bo Peep]

it seems to me it would be a waste to not train usher... since he is getting rave reviews of how good he could be. it also seems that it would be hard on the poor rescue dog who thought she had a forever home to get tossed out for another dog. and maybe the thought of buying a trained dog is good... a trained dog still needs to be worked! what happens if you spend the money on buying a trained dog, and then can't get to sheep for another year....

so it might take longer if you do the training yourself, and not send him out. but the rewards in the end are far greater with something you have accomplished yourself! i can understand needing help in the beginning due to physical challenges, but after a certain point you could be doing the training.

i have a young dog that would definite benefit from being sent out, but that would defeat the purpose of having that bond and the relationship from the training together.. and eventually on the trial field.

 

Kelli

If you have been following the saga of "Bailey, the rescue dog" It hasn't been easy. I barely saved her from the blue juice. Papers didn't exchange hands and that's why she is still alive. She has major issues. Low thyroid - no problem, she's a "barbie collie" ok again. She fights with other dogs. Again another problem. She has had at least 3 other homes. She was returned twice to the IHS, then I find out she was a pick-up dog, not according to her other owners. My BF loves her and will take her. Here is the crate she chewed thew. She and Usher finally were getting along, until last night- another fight- her fault. I about fell over trying to break it up. She is a one-dog family. PERFECT in training now. Heels on leash, stays by your side now. Too fat for agility. Loves to nap. An ACK dog.

 

Like I mentioned before, my boyfriend would take her. I am not "pawning" her off. I do not do that with my dogs. They are here to stay. There have been some exceptions. Divorce and moving to the city where only so many are allowed. I DID make a mistake and I apologize to Jodi for getting an offspring of one of one of my pups a few lines down.

I was going through a divorce and "thought" I found a good home, they bred the heck out of her, not thinking of what mattered. I am sorry Jodi. If you have gotten a Mick/China pup- I think you'd be in open class right now..

[bcnewe2]

How bout making your other dog your assistance dog?

I've never sent a dog off for training. I'm not quite in open yet either but I'll wait till we get there together. Then it'll be both our accomplishments.

I know lots of people who don't own sheep and make it in the trialing world. It there's a will there's a way. I think we all get tied up in the negitive thinking about holding our good dogs back with our slow learning curve. But to tell you the truth, the dogs could give a rats patoot about what level you and them are trialing at. It's about doing the best we can as a team.

My vote it to do it the hard way and train Usher yourself with the help of your trainer. Or making your other dog your assistance dog and sending out Usher for his start but getting him back so you can both learn the rest of the ropes together.

 

Good luck Dianne, whatever you do make sure you're having a good time and so is Usher. Unless you need your dog to run your million acre, 1000 ewe farm, isn't that what it's about? I'm addicted to training my dogs to work sheep but if it wasn't good for both/all of us, we'd be finding something else that was.

 

Kristen

edited to add: I was posting as you were posting your last post. Maybe she isn't your next service dog, but with time and energy maybe she is.

[Bo Peep]

I wish Bailey could be my SD, but no way- Usher has been trained since day one to do the job. He is "in-tune" to me. We are a team. I drop my keys and he picks them up, I lean towards the left and he supports me. He would be a great sheepdog!!! Do I sell him? NO WAY!!! Don, didn't even really need to ask. I really think he is more "proud" of his tasks as a service dog than his sheep herding- LOL. Not really. Don is a man of integrity. He loves the sport. He loves the dogs. He LIVES the life. I respect him so much. In to this, I iin trust him to choose a dog for me and situation.

Edited April 9, 2008 by Bo Peep

[mbc1963]

My dog has no sheep skills whatsoever, so I have no way to compare him to your Usher, but...

 

Seems as though "service dog" is a good and honorable job for a dog. I don't personally believe that showing talent in an area (sheep herding) necessarily means the dog has to be pushed into that area. I think dogs can have hundreds of possible "best lives," as long as they're with a trusted family. If I weighed the benefits of getting Buddy to trial against the drawbacks of sending him away from his first stable, trustworthy home... I'd say the benefits would lose. At this point, with our bond, Buddy's "best life" is with me.

 

Mary

[kelpiegirl]

Dianne

Here's my take. I have some dogs at home that are way past their prime, and one is retired due to arthritis/other health issues. I am planning to get a pup in the near future. This makes too many dogs for me- one thing I could do is to rehome one of my oldsters- in theory only- in actuality, no way. So, they are here with me. When you describe Bailey's life, it sounds like she needs to be in a home PERMANENTLY from NOW on. If you are dead set serious in getting into trialing and want a dog to do that with, I see no mutual exclusivity between Usher being a sheep and service dog. If you have a good dog (on sheep) you don't necessarily have to walk backward a lot. You could have Don work the dog, getting it started, and on whistles, and then you could take the reins. Rehoming Bailey is a separate deal. IF you really want to rehome her, do it for only that reason, not to make space- because frankly, buying a trained sheepdog is a big deal and means a LOT of commitment, period- you have to get that dog out routinely and work that dog, and progress. I am not sure, but I think you mentioned a two dog limit in your area? What happens if you and boyfriend end up getting married- will Bailey be the third wheel in a new home- if you do get a started/trained dog? Think this all through. Sometimes the best plan of action is no action, until the waters are less muddy....

[juliepoudrier]

Dianne,

Here's how I would look at it:

1. You have no livestock, therefore

2. Usher being trained to work sheep is not a necessity for you, and

3. Training just for trialing is really a hobby, again not something you absolutely have to do, so it makes sense to

4. Keep Usher as a service dog--that's where YOUR NEED is, and besides

5. Just because Usher shows talent early on doesn't necessarily mean he has what it takes to be a world beater (you have one person's opinion, and opinions can and do change once a dog gets into some serious training), so

6. Would you really want to give up a dog who is apparently the PERFECT assistance dog for you, on the chance that he might have what it takes to be a top trial dog (there are very few of those after all)? And remember,

7. Plenty of talented or potentially talented dogs never see stock, and yet they have perfectly happy and useful lives.

 

As I see it, you can choose to continue to train Usher at whatever pace you can manage, recognizing that his main job is as a service dog and any future trialing is really just for fun. You have put a lot of time and effort into making Usher the most useful dog for your needs, why would you want to give that up for a hope, and especially one that you might never really be able to fulfill?

 

If you have a burning desire to trial, and your physical limitations make it difficult or impossible for you to do the training, then place Bailey in a great home and buy a trained dog that you can step out on to the trial field with now. With a trained dog, you will know up front what you've got (as opposed to just potential, which may or may not pan out), and you still keep your main service dog for that purpose, which would seem to be the most important job you could possibly have for one of your dogs.

 

That's my opinion, FWIW.

 

J.

[kelpiegirl]

Julie

I think Dianne wasn't planning to place Usher- rather place Bailey with her boyfriend- Usher would remain, in all likelihood, her service dog, and she would get a trained dog- Dianne- sorry if I am wrong.

[juliepoudrier]

Julie,

My post never implied that she was placing Usher. Dianne herself said the only way to train him for trialing would be to send him off for training, which would mean that he wouldn't be able to function as her service dog for some period of time. I thought I was quite clear in stating that I think she should keep Usher as her service dog and if she really, really wanted to trial then she should place Bailey and buy a trained dog. I have no clue where you got the idea I thought she should place Usher. When I said "give up" I meant give up using him as a service dog so he could be sent out for training--to read it otherwise would make the rest of the post completely nonsensical.

 

J.

[kelpiegirl]

YIKES! Julie

 

But can you see where I might have inferred that:

 

"6. Would you really want to give up a dog who is apparently the PERFECT assistance dog for you, on the chance that he might have what it takes to be a top trial dog (there are very few of those after all)?"

 

Julie,

My post never implied that she was placing Usher. Dianne herself said the only way to train him for trialing would be to send him off for training, which would mean that he wouldn't be able to function as her service dog for some period of time. I thought I was quite clear in stating that I think she should keep Usher as her service dog and if she really, really wanted to trial then she should place Bailey and buy a trained dog. I have no clue where you got the idea I thought she should place Usher. When I said "give up" I meant give up using him as a service dog so he could be sent out for training--to read it otherwise would make the rest of the post completely nonsensical.

 

J.

[juliepoudrier]

Well yeah, if you read it as giving up the dog entirely (i.e., getting rid of it) vs. the implied meaning, which was "give him up as your service dog" (given that Dianne herself set up the choice assistance dog vs. trial dog). Taken in context of the entire post with numbers 1-5 leading up to the point (#6) that you interpreted as a stand alone point, it makes perfect sense to me, but whatever.

 

J.

[kelpiegirl]

Ahm just a dummy I know

[Bo Peep]

Kelpiegirl- the "dummy" part is my job- LOL. I actually think there is a 3 dog limit here. But my "personal" limit is 2. That's what I can handle. I would NEVER give up Usher. I do believe his job is as important being a service dog as it would be as a sheepdog. In fact, Usher has quite the life. He gets to go everywhere with me. I am surprised he hasn't developed any separation anxiety. He's fine to stay at home when I baby-sit my grandkids. I think JulieP is right. Usher does show a lot of talent, but who knows what will happen? I think I will take some more lessons from Don. He said Usher is ready for the big field already- WOW! That is the same field he was working Blue in when I arrived. (Usher's daddy)

I wish I could open up Usher's little mind and ask him what he wants. I believe he would choose me. I'd like to think so.

[jdarling]

If you have gotten a Mick/China pup- I think you'd be in open class right now..

 

Just out of curiosity, Dianne, what makes you think this?

[orionbc]

So what about actually getting a trained service dog? one that isn't bred to work for a living? from what you say about how usher is---hardheaded, a little out of control(maybe that was just when he was young) but doens't sound like any service dog i know. i have a dog that is trained for service work-- i don't call him a SERVICE DOG, becasue he is not working with someone with a disability (well some people might not agree hi grandma is a trainer for a service dog organization, and she trained his mother-- well she was very natural just did eveyrthing you asked her to. and we did the same thing with my dog, i even helped a few times when she couldn't do a demo. my dog also, very natural. he never put himself first it was always to please me first. not a hardheaded bone in his body! would NEVER think of pulling me on a leash-- and no matter what is going on, whether we are sitting ringside at agility, or on a trial feild the only thing he does is lie under my chair and sleep. does he love to do the work, you bet! he races to do things for me! but its not what he was bred to do, he is happiest working and being with me.

you say he is happy just doing service dog work, but maybe all the hardheadedness is saying otherwise. maybe he would be happier being a herding dog? i can understand how life is rough with your rescue dog.. but you knew what you were getting into ( i would hope) and now its too hard to have her? she in't worht having becasue you want to buy a trained dog to trial with? just doens't make sense to me.

 

kelli

[Bo Peep]

Just out of curiosity, Dianne, what makes you think this?

Because they were a lot like Zip and I know how much you love working with Zip. But, that was many many years ago. I hope you find your, well, not replacement dog, but one that you enjoy working with as much as you do him. I know his leg had some troubles, hope he is feeling better now

[jdarling]

Because they were a lot like Zip and I know how much you love working with Zip. But, that was many many years ago. I hope you find your, well, not replacement dog, but one that you enjoy working with as much as you do him. I know his leg had some troubles, hope he is feeling better now

 

Dianne, this makes no sense. Zip is not an open dog, I am not an open handler, and your dogs weren't anywhere near open either. So the claim that a Mick / China pup would have put me in open is a ridiculous notion. Hell, Kiva went back to Mick / China on both sides, and all she wanted to do was tear my sheep limb from limb. ... Also Zip is only 6 years old. Why would I need to replace him? He hasn't limped in over a year. All is well. Why you have my dogs in the grave already (see thread about Jag) is beyond me. I'm done here.