New Ideas for the Boards

[blackacre]

Hey Julie,

What's up with that? You seem to have a real chip on your shoulder on this one. There ARE distinctions to be made, in this case between those who want to preserve the border collie as a working breed and those who don't, or don't YET, mostly because they have no idea of the issues involved or even that there are issues. It is Eileen's deeply felt hope that bringing the two together in this venue will increase awareness and foster a similar desire in the souls of those who don't, or don't yet, have any experience with working border collies, or perhaps I should say border collies working. I assume that's the reason you're here too; at least you've given every indication of being passionately interested in the Kelpie as a working stockdog. Your signature line certainly implies as much.

That does not imply that one group is judging the other, except to the extent that the behaviour of one group runs counter to that goal. On this premise, the act of enjoying your dog as a pet or engaging in non-sheepdog type activites is not being denigrated. YOU are not being denigrated or criticized for doing so either. It's when the talk turns to breeding for anything but working ability or buying from or supporting someone who does so in other ways that the (collective) hackles of the Boards are raised.

So, that's the party line. I think.

Do I subscribe to it? I actually have reservations about the whole premise ie that bringing the two groups together is mutually beneficial to both and will convert the unenlightened to the one true way, or whatever you want to call it. What I actually see happening is that fewer and fewer working dog people are posting or (I assume) even bothering to come here to see if there is anything interesting to discuss. To what should this development be ascribed? I dunno. Maybe others have an idea. I am still inclined to take the view that it is due to the inordinate number of OT or CP posts, which of necessity determines the character or flavour of the Boards. Could be wrong though. And, to be perfectly fair, I also abhor the self-satisfied and self-congratulatory attitude on the break away bulletin board, and to the extent I engaged in similar behaviour, I regret it. Kind of.

I know for a fact that the collective expertise of the working dog people who have occasionally visited these Boards is quite remarkable and forms a potentially unmatched resource, if some way could be found to plumb it. Anyone have any ideas on that?

As to answering training questions, you will recall that I DID answer you, on another list. I certainly don't regard myself as being in the first rank of handlers, far from it, but I did feel able to give you some basic suggestions. Other than that, I don't recall any posts here, except for one about having your feet stepped on and what kind of footwear would be good for that. I was tempted to answer something like "stop the dog", but figured you'd already heard that and in any case that you were only trying to be humorous and were soliciting some friendly "I've been there too" type of chatter.

And, finally, while I understand what Julie P is about, I don't actually feel that it is fruitless to discuss training issues in the abstract. In fact, I feel that those types of discussions are the most interesting part of online interaction about working dogs. No doubt it is important to couch specific advice to novices with the usual qualificatons, but I see it as a more wide ranging type of process that can lead to some really interesting discussions.

A

[AK dog doc]

Well, I can't say one way or the other if the dyed-in-the-wool (so to speak!) working dog people are drifting away from the boards, and if so, whether the reason is the O/T posts. Myself, I sometimes have time to be here, other times I don't. Sometimes I see topics I want to post on, other times I just read; not posting doesn't mean I'm not here, just not piping up. It's possible that the working dog folk don't always see a need to pipe up themselves, but are still around reading and may have something to contribute to a thread that interests them, but not all threads do. Not sure about any of that.

 

One thing I CAN say is that I do agree with Eileen's contention that there is some significant value in exposing those of us who have BCs primarily as pets (including those of us who hobby herd, like me), to those who depend on these dogs to work their livestock "for real", be that a full-time, no-other-source-of-income farmer or a farmer who works another job to supplement their farm income. (I personally can't bring myself to think of that as "part-time" farming, since it's pretty much an entire job unto itself and IMO is more full-time than the non-farm job, for most. You can't take a day off from caring for the livestock, and no one will give you overtime pay for keeping ungodly hours when it's needed. You just have to do it, whether it be thankless or not).

 

I see the value in mixing the two groups' perspectives because I know for certain that it HAS changed the thinking of at least some people about preserving the true working ability of the BC, and just how that is to be done. When I first came here it was before I had Finn on stock (and before I had Raven at all.) At the time, Finn was intact. I had no PLANS to breed him - he needed to pass his soundness tests first, and then if that went well, I wanted to put him on stock and see what he had there before I made any decisions. Turns out he's everything you could want in terms of soundness - but NOT eveything you could want in terms of ability on stock. HAD I NOT COME HERE - and this is my point - I might not have known enough about the difference to do the right thing (neutering). Finn has some ability, there's no question of that. In the hands of a decent trainer (as opposed to yours truly!) he'd probably be a useful farm dog - but not your BEST farm dog, not your big trial winner, and not good enough, IMO, to justify keeping the genetics to put back into the pool. But I might not have known that without these Boards. I might have seen the ability he DOES have, and combined that with his extremely good hips and perfect eyes (not to mention his general good nature and good looks) and thought: Breeding prospect.

 

Had I not stumbled across the Boards, I would not have been able to advise the clients looking to breed their BC that this is a serious decision and not to be entered into lightly. I would not have been able to explain to the BC owner who was looking for an ABCA bitch to breed to her AKC male why neither the ABCA nor the AKC people would think the resultant puppies right for their interests, nor why it was a Bad Idea for the breed at large. I might not have been able to discourage any number of people from breeding ill-considered BC-cross "designer" dogs (while I'd have known it a bad idea without the Boards, articulating the reasons why would have been much more difficult and less persuasive). And it's even possible that I might have eventually given in to the requests of those people who, seeing Finn, asked to breed their bitches to him. I hope I'd have had more sense; but I'm not SURE of it, TBH, and I AM sure I'd have had a lot harder time deciding where the line falls on breedability.

 

So, yes, perhaps it's tedious to have too many O/T posts, and I admit I skip many of them (unless they have something really enticing in the title, like "Alaska" or "Bats".) I agree it would be helpful to have more concisely descriptive titles on some posts - and those who are asking for help might attract better answers if the title mentioned what KIND of help they're looking for. But I do think Eileen has a point that mixing the groups (working dog/non-working dog) has some value and at least on some occasions has borne fruit. I am only one person, but getting clear in my own head where that line of breedability/non-breedability falls has done two things: One, it has kept me from being pressured, lured, flattered, tempted, brow-beaten or otherwise coaxed into breeding my good and beloved (but not breeding-worthy) BC to another dog, producing more BCs and then from his offspring more again, who aren't quite what the breed needs to survive. And two, it has armed me with the tools with which to similarly guide and inform and discourage others from making the same mistake.

 

Maybe I've only changed the course of three or four people so far. Maybe it's a dozen, or 30, or only one. Admittedly, I am far form the beaten path of the working BC, and perhaps what I do up here in this distant corner of the world won't make any difference to the course of the breed as a whole. But I can at least know I'm not making things WORSE, and who knows? Maybe those I've educated will educate others, and maybe eventually it WILL be enough to make a difference.

 

Just a thought.

[kelpiegirl]

Hi Andrea

Thanks for writing. I really don't want to have a chip on my shoulder, and I guess this morning I should not have posted- BC- BEFORE COFFEE!!!

I feel the same way as Eileen- that by seeing working dogs work, and conversation about it, more people will be intrigued, and become interested, and eventually vested in the working dog.

I thank you for responding to my questions Andrea- it means a lot (and thanks to ALL who answer).

Maybe some questions could be labeled "Rank Novice needs help", or something like that?

Anyway, I happen to think these boards are pretty great, and I hope that there can be more discourse by the working folk.

I promise, from now on to only post PC (POST COFFEE!!!)

Julie

[Sue R]

I may be a bit off-topic again but I really appreciated AKdd's post here and would like to respond in kind. I am often little better than clueless now but I was surely and totally clueless before participating on the boards.

 

We've had cattle since 1980, starting with raising dairy heifers and producing veal from our goat milk, to stocker cattle, to a small cow-calf herd. We got our first working dog about 1985, thought we knew what we were doing to get a purebred Aussie, and wound up with a dog that had only "proven" himself bringing in the dairy cows at best. He wasn't much use but we loved him.

 

After Jett passed on, my hubby brought me home a pup, a Border Collie/Aussie cross who wouldn't look at stock for two years. When Rocket turned on, he was excellent and a real help in many ways but very poorly trained by us, as we were still pretty clueless. That dog may have saved my husband's life from an angry cow - that alone earned him a good retirement.

 

We got another purebred Aussie pup, from working parents on a farm, our (now) old Mac. He was excellent at what Aussies do best but he was all self-taught and instinctive. But, when we needed a gathering dog, he was worse than useless.

 

Finally, realizing that all four kids had grown up and moved on and I was the only one left that my hubby could "order around" when it was time to move cattle, etc., I realized I needed a gathering dog like the good (and well-trained) dogs I'd seen at demos. I needed (and wanted) a Border Collie.

 

I was very fortunate in that I got my first pup from breeders doing a demo that actually had well-bred dogs, and they have been very supportive of me. When Skye was killed, they gave me my dear Celt, along with many emails of advice, support, and encouragement. We've given a home to Megan (poorly bred but devoted and useful at what she does well) and to Bute (young, but enthusiastic and well-bred).

 

But it has been the boards that have really taught me that it's not simple as some folks would like to think - get a Border Collie and you get a dog that works (also, it's smart so it's easy to train and no trouble, etc.). I had no idea about breeding for "the right stuff" and the harm that kennel club breeding (and pet breeding, sport breeding, etc.) can do to any breed but especially to a breed that is so developed.

 

I have been grateful to learn here, to sometimes try to share what I think I've learned, and to be able to see many people realize just what Border Collies are all about and what responsible ownership and breeding involve.

 

These boards do make a difference. Thanks, Eileen, and all those who contribute worthwhile questions and answers, and who are always eager to lend a listening ear, a caring heart, and support when it's needed.

[stockdogranch]

Hi, Kelpiegirl: I don't see how having some reservations about giving advice on these boards for training can result in an attitude of, "I'll never again ask a question, no matter how badly I may want or need to." If I've taken the wrong message from your post, I apologize. I agree with some of the others who have said that sometimes we (we being the hard-core working dog folk) are hesitant to respond without seeing the dog because we don't want to misguide someone or give bad information and further mess up a dog. But I know I and quite a few others have added our two cents' worth when we feel we can. I personlly wish the training section were more active, and have no problem making a suggestion whenever possible...

Anna

[Kyrasmom]

For what it's worth, and this is from a pet owner and has nothing to do with those who work their dogs, it's hard giving any advice over the internet, period. It's such a delicate line because so much is dependant on the dog, the person, and the unknowns for both parties in addition to the anonimity of the internet.

 

I know that I try to just share what has worked for me and my dogs but realize that even something as simplistic as housebreaking can be done in various ways...there is no hardcore rule and so many times you need to find the right balance between dog and handler.

 

Maria

[Root Beer]

I like the mixture of working people/pet people/sport people/etc. on this board. It reflects the real world.

 

I am always interested in conversation with other Border Collie people that I meet up with live and in person. When I meet up with folks who also own Border Collies, they are sometimes people who work sheep with their dogs and trial with them on sheep (whatever the proper terminology for that is), they are sometimes people who run agility with them or dance with them or do Rally with them or play Flyball with them, they are sometimes people who show Border Collies in conformation, and sometimes they are people who have them strictly as house pets. Sometimes they know a ton about Border Collies and sometimes they know very little.

 

I meet up with people whose training and handling techniques I admire, and I enjoy getting tips from them. I also meet up with people whose training and handling techniques make me cringe and so I choose not to take them up on training tips they might offer. (Like the person who suggested that I tape my fearful dog's tail in an upward position and send him into a situation that would scare him to "flood it out of him". Respectfully, thank you, but I'll pass on that one!!)

 

Of course, I usually enjoy coversations with people with whom I share Border Collie interests in common. But I don't seek to avoid conversation with the others. There is a wide range of types of folks who own these dogs now and I see that as something that we have in common, even when our views on Border Collies vary.

 

I like that the board reflects real life in that way. I am glad that Eileen has elected not to separate us into distinct groups. I think we all really do have a lot to learn from each other.

[kelpiegirl]

Hi Anna

I am sorry about that post- it was posted BC (before coffee), and it was a bit curt- and not entirely how I felt. I suppose I feel like people do worry what others will say about the advice they give, and that is understandable. At some point, I hope there will be more questions posted, because there are some seriously experienced and wise folks here!

Julie

[blackacre]

Originally posted by AK dog doc:

I see the value in mixing the two groups' perspectives because I know for certain that it HAS changed the thinking of at least some people about preserving the true working ability of the BC, and just how that is to be done.

Hi AK dog doc,

 

Yes, I'd have to agree, and I agree that it's a laudable objective, one well worth pursuing. What I'm not sure about is whether that's a sufficient motivator to keep the working folks returning. Altruism is great but realistically, it only goes so far.

 

I HAVE thought it might be useful to start an informal rota of working dog people posting on a particular judging or training or handling issue that they have had or might have, which the other working dog people would then make an effort to reply to. I guess a bit like the "ask the expert' section of Little Hats, but not so formalized. Once that thread was exhausted, that particular poster could then hand off to another person, maybe even by name (with their permission?), and in that way, everyone would more or less bear the load. (I can pretty well name every working dog person who has come here, and I am sure most others that fall into that category could too.) It might be fun too, and keeping it more or less abstract would answer the difficulty of giving advice over the internet. At least I hope?

And, of course, novices could chime in with some of their similar experiences and, optimistically, the non-working folks would feel comfortable enough to ask for clarification or could even post to bring their own expertise from other areas to bear, such that it would not be an elitist forum that served a minority and nothing more.

Anyway, just a thought, maybe others can elaborate on this, reject it out of hand, come up with another idea, whatever. I can take it.

A

[Carson Crazies]

A. - I think that's a FANTASTIC idea! I seem to recall that Carol Campion posted a really nice post about casting sometime not too long ago - not specifically directed at anyone, but I learned a lot from it. I am too novice to ever start something like that, but I'd love to participate.

[Eileen Stein]

Just for everbody's information (in light of Andrea's post), plans are in the works to link LittleHats more directly to this site and to incorporate its (revived) Ask An Expert feature into our forums. However, I like Andrea's suggestion a lot, and think it's fully compatible with those plans. It would be great if a lot of working dog people were willing to do this, and it might produce a gradually increasing involvement on their part. It could be very open-ended -- just post on a training, handling or judging issue you've been thinking about, which people can then discuss.

 

Thanks for the suggestion!

[blackacre]

I changed the subject line so it's not about Julie.

All responses are welcome.

A

[Tammy525]

I am not sure under which topic to post this comment, so I'll try this one. This board was my first online experience. Since it has been such a great overall experience, I have looked for some other boards where the main topic of discussions were children, cats, Christian groups, etc. This search to avoid posting O/T topics.

 

I have not found another board where I felt comfortable. There are a lot of crazy people out there!!! I appreciate the common sense that seems a large part of BC people's psyche.

 

I do not intend to dilute the value of this board by discussing O/T things. I am hoping coexistance is possible. Might I suggest that when posting an O/T be very specific in the title so those who aren't interested can just skip it?

 

While AK Dog Doc is likely to have a far wider influence than I am, this board has really changed how I discuss dogs with people. Especially border collies. I had no idea of the damage that has been done to working breeds. I am thankful for that education.

 

So, thank you to all the working dog people who are willing to put up with ignorant pet people like me, (not implying that all pet people are ignorant, just me). I appreciate your advice and insights. The sensibility that you bring to dog management carries over to many other areas of life and I appreciate you being willing to share that as well.

[smileyzookie]

Originally posted by Tammy525:

I do not intend to dilute the value of this board by discussing O/T things. I am hoping coexistance is possible. Might I suggest that when posting an O/T be very specific in the title so those who aren't interested can just skip it?

 

So, thank you to all the working dog people who are willing to put up with ignorant pet people like me, (not implying that all pet people are ignorant, just me). I appreciate your advice and insights. The sensibility that you bring to dog management carries over to many other areas of life and I appreciate you being willing to share that as well.

I agree with all this. lol...I wanted to further say though I just dont understand why the fuss about O/T. If its labeled "O/T" then obviously it isnt BC so why is it such a hassle to get through the threads? If you are only intrested in BC stuff then dont read O/T stuff. Isnt that an option already?

[juliepoudrier]

Smileyzookie,

The problem comes when the OT posts increase in number as they've done recently. Yes, we can see they're labeled OT, but the fact still remains that this is a *border collie* board and no one should have to scroll through a bunch of OT posts (labeled or not) to get to those related to border collies.

 

J.

[Bill Fosher]

I know there has been some flight of working dog people from these boards in recent years, but I would say that the more noticable change has been in the proportions. I think there were about 400 members when I joined, and the conversation was just as likely to be about the relative merits of square flanks as it was to be about how to use the Gentle Leader. We didn't even know who Jon Katz was then. God, it was great. But I digress.

 

It seems that nearly all of the 6600 people who have joined the boards since me have been pet or sports people, and there are sure times when I feel like the voice in the wilderness. I'd imagine that other working dog people feel the same.

 

There are strange new concepts for me -- no reward markers being the latest -- that I would never have been exposed to except through this board. It's probably good that I know these things, but I can't exactly say why I think that. I can certainly understand why a person who was interested primarily in sheepdog or cattledog work would find the signal to noise ration of these forums annoying at best, and overwhelming at worst.

 

I'm in a frustrating position. After 16 years with sheepdogs, I know enough to be dangerous (not in the sense of dangerous men, but in the sense that I could do some real damage unintentionally). I know that, and so I try to stay out of most of the training discussions unless I see the matter as so clear cut that we're talking about fundamental philosophical stuff, as opposed to the operational details of how you teach a dog to drive a straight line, etc.

 

But at the same time, it seems like there are some places where people are asking questions that, in order to answer them, you'd have to start so far back unraveling misconceptions that lie unstated within the question that it would take forever to do it.

 

I get very weary, and I'd imagine this is a problem for other working dog people, of being called a herding nazi, or for people accusing me of saying that they shoudln't play dog sports with Border collies or enjoy having them as pets. No problem. Just don't breed them, and don't claim an expertise about the breed because you don't know what you're talking about until you've worked a dog on livestock for a few years.

 

Some people respond to this sort of nonsense by simply going away. Others fight it and get nasty about it. I've tried to find a middle ground, and so have a few of the others.

 

But the fact of the matter is that this has become a forum dominated by pet owners, and we working dog people are going to be somewhat marginalized just by sheer numbers. I don't have a problem with that per se, but it's a matter of fact that there are always going to be fewer of us here than pet owners and sports people.

[bailey44]

Bill,

 

I am anti-John Katz, pro-gentle leader, and wouldn't know a square flank unless it was a piece of meat I was cutting up for one of my kids--and they're grown now so that would be weird. HOWEVER, I'm going on record now to say that you have a wonderful wit, a dry way of expressing things that always gives me a chuckle and a sense of integrity about you that isn't always seen these days.

 

A true gentleman, methinks! I understand your frustration, but I sure hope you stick around!

 

Charlene