Jedismom Posted February 23, 2008 Report Share Posted February 23, 2008 I've had Jedi for about a 6 weeks now and here's what I've learned so far. He's not a terror..he's a good boy! I guess with everything I've read about BCs, in my mind I had made things a bigger deal than what it's turning out to be...so far. Cadi, my spaniel mix was much more difficult as a puppy. I also think she's helping him learn because he takes alot of cues from her. Jedi is becoming more confident and as a result he's starting to hold his own in their play sessions. He's not had a panic attack outside in some time. Perhaps my most useful observation so far is what does and does not drain his energy. We walk for several miles daily. When we come back Cadi is ready to chill for a while. Jedi is not. He comes back more energized! What drains his energy is the focus he has when we are having our play and training sessions in the back yard. Then he gets tired. Mental not physical. My question for the group is this. Is it absolutely a must for a BC to be involved in sheep herding or the agility sports or rescue...etc. etc.? these sports long term I guess can be hard on their bodies. Can they be happy as pets who get lots of exercise and play time with me? Georgia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shetlander Posted February 23, 2008 Report Share Posted February 23, 2008 My question for the group is this. Is it absolutely a must for a BC to be involved in sheep herding or the agility sports or rescue...etc. etc.? these sports long term I guess can be hard on their bodies. Can they be happy as pets who get lots of exercise and play time with me? BC's vary from dog to dog. Some are perfectly happy being a pet who gets lots of attention. Others do seem to thrive on more structured activity in their lives. Quinn loves nothing more than to work sheep. Unfortunately for him, that is only something he can do several times a year, not everyday. He's still a very happy boy doing his next favorite thing which is playing Frisbee. And most of his time is being a companion to me. It's great that you are enjoying Jedi so much. Just be aware that BC's have a way of leading you down paths you never thought you'd go. I had no interest in sheep herding until I saw Quinn transform at his first sight of sheep. And I always found fetch a rather boring game until Quinn caught me up in his exuberance. It is important to keep safety in mind whether playing sports or playing in the park. I've done agility with my dogs for about 8 years and the couple of minor injuries my dogs have had happened in the backyard as they romped on their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenbo Posted February 23, 2008 Report Share Posted February 23, 2008 My question for the group is this. Is it absolutely a must for a BC to be involved in sheep herding or the agility sports or rescue...etc. etc.? No, it is not a must. They do need a drain to get off the engery and I know that they seem to never get tired. I would love to have sheep or agility for my 3 BC's but there is not a chapter within 100 miles and I don't need sheep for my dogs to herd. My BC's will herd anything, cat, each other, lawn mower, me, tractor or anything so don't think you need sheep. Some of the best exercise is a frisbie or tennis ball. I found if you use a tennis racket rather than throw it you can do it longer and the ball will go farther. They can be very happy with just you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mbc1963 Posted February 23, 2008 Report Share Posted February 23, 2008 I got my boy at about 1 1/2 years, so I missed the craziness of really young doghood. Also, it seems that my dog was a street dog in his youth, so he had plenty of opportunity to run wild, eat trash, fight, chase and impregnate bitches, etc.. But since moving in with me, Buddy is really content to have a couple good walks a day, and relax the rest of the time. Maybe I'm just lucky, but I've never experienced the dreadful energy level I used to read about before I got a border collie. Mind you, if snow or illness makes me go 2+ days without a real walk (off leash, in the woods, for a good hour or so), Buddy gets a bit antsy, and wants me to animate all his toys and play hide and seek indoors. That's rare, though, and his energy is easily managed with a bit of walking. Buddy loves to look at pigs, goats, and cows through the fences at nearby farms. I tried taking him to sheep once, though, and the sheep trainer guy just laughed at him. I was thankful, since it meant I didn't have to start him in herding lessons, buy a farm, etc.! Good luck! Mary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Root Beer Posted February 23, 2008 Report Share Posted February 23, 2008 It does depend on the dog. Both of mine are perfectly happy without sheep. Speedy's thing is sports. He enjoyed Rally and he loves Freestyle now. He is happy as a pet, but he really thrives in the sport context. Dean would be perfectly happy just as a pet. He's OK with doing sports, and he enjoys them, but he loves being with us the most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maralynn Posted February 23, 2008 Report Share Posted February 23, 2008 My two need something do. But, even though I have sheep, they're not working all the time. Right now the sheep are in the barnyard and Missy works them a few times a month! Kipp is in training as a search dog, but that isn't everyday either. We do frisbee, ball, basic obedience and agility for SAR at home. I also take them along on errands when possible. And they both like hanging out with the family. The most important thing is to give your dog quality physical and mental exercise. Though many BCs do thrive on and enjoy sports, most don't need it for them to be happy and you to be sane. They need more exercise than you average dog, but an active family can usually provide this quite nicely. If you want some more ideas to mentally wear your dog out, find the book "Dog Tricks for Dummies" and do a google serach for clicker training. You'll find lots of great training ideas that you can work on at home! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urge to herd Posted February 23, 2008 Report Share Posted February 23, 2008 All 3 of mine are companions. I do make sure they get a good run in every day but Sunday, and I try to do some trick training daily and some kind of 'field trip' at least once a week, a long walk at an open space, a visit to a friend, even a trip to shopping center where I can park and let them sniff around the vacant field, then do a little bit of distraction training. The BC3 are aging - Buzz is 10 in the fall, Shoshone is probably 12 or so, and Samantha is (gulp) 13 on April 4. When they were younger, they were busier, but I've never taken them to sheep. I'd love to do that with my next bc, but that's a ways down the road. They all do fine when I'm under the weather and need to stay quiet for a few days, or when I'm busy with work and can't do as much with them. What I think working dogs need to be happy is regular interaction w/a human that requires some thinking on the dog's part. Yes, they like to be petted and fussed over a little bit, but I believe that they're intelligent beings who crave something to do. Herding, SAR, therapy work, trick training, agility, etc - what they all have in common is intense, intelligent interaction that makes the dog concentrate, take direction, and give something back. I like to think I'd be happier if I were married to Viggo Mortenson or Gary Trudeau or Terry Pratchett, but what I've got is a tall bald guy with a great sense of humour and a lust for classic Cadillacs. And I'm pretty durn happy. Ruth n the BC3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ms.DaisyDuke Posted February 23, 2008 Report Share Posted February 23, 2008 Daisy is a couch potato on a good day. Mind you she's a cross, so may not inherit as much of the energy as some of the others. She doesn't really care for sports and a game of fetch lasts about 5 minutes, she'll go for her walks, but sometimes it's only because we make her, so we spend most of our time learning tricks and obedience since she really loves to learn! Sometimes I can actually see her thinking about something, it's an interesting expression! Needless to say, we have lots of thinking toys too. I think she's happy as long as she knows where we are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted February 23, 2008 Report Share Posted February 23, 2008 My question for the group is this. Is it absolutely a must for a BC to be involved in sheep herding or the agility sports or rescue...etc. etc.? No, it is not a must. They do need a drain to get off the engery and I know that they seem to never get tired. I would love to have sheep or agility for my 3 BC's but there is not a chapter within 100 miles and I don't need sheep for my dogs to herd. My BC's will herd anything, cat, each other, lawn mower, me, tractor or anything so don't think you need sheep. Some of the best exercise is a frisbie or tennis ball. I found if you use a tennis racket rather than throw it you can do it longer and the ball will go farther. They can be very happy with just you. I can't stand it anymore... Kenbo...don't you breed your border collies? If people would just think about the dog in the long run. I have had many people get angry with me when I would not sell the puppy that they wanted because I knew better for my dogs. Trust the breeder for his knowledge of the breed. Ken Names can be so hard, when our female has puppys, it's hard to pick them our for their registration papers. We will look on their parents papers for some past names. Ken I have had dogs all my life and I'm 55 years old. We got a BC for a pet from the paper "free to good home". From that, we got 3 more because we love the breed. We have 10 acres and 2 large ponds that they can run and play in all day. Why has the BC captured your heart as they have mine? Sigh... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greylite Posted February 24, 2008 Report Share Posted February 24, 2008 My boys were... interesting. They each have their quirks and are still a work in progress. I enjoy it though. Keep me on my toes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenbo Posted February 24, 2008 Report Share Posted February 24, 2008 I can't stand it anymore...Kenbo...don't you breed your border collies? Sigh... Yes, I am a registered breeder with the ABCA. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdarling Posted February 24, 2008 Report Share Posted February 24, 2008 I would love to have sheep or agility for my 3 BC's but there is not a chapter within 100 miles and I don't need sheep for my dogs to herd. My BC's will herd anything, cat, each other, lawn mower, me, tractor or anything so don't think you need sheep. Ken, please stop breeding. For the lurkers out there, please understand that the above quote is a very common misconception by people who are too lazy to put in the hard work and dedication it takes to prove the working ability in their dogs prior to breeding them. Many backyard breeders and puppymills will come up with all kinds of excuses in order to breed their dogs. Please note that herding everything, i.e. cats, eachother, lawn mowers, people, tractors, etc. is not only a behavior many find unacceptable, but is in most cases downright dangerous. Beyond that, it proves nothing about what dogs would actually do once introduced to livestock. Ken, here is a link for you. You might want to contact these people. They have events that are well within driving distance. And this is just the first place I found. Midwest Herding Association Jodi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
painted_ponies Posted February 24, 2008 Report Share Posted February 24, 2008 I've had Jedi for about a 6 weeks now and here's what I've learned so far. He's not a terror..he's a good boy! I guess with everything I've read about BCs, in my mind I had made things a bigger deal than what it's turning out to be...so far. Cadi, my spaniel mix was much more difficult as a puppy. <snip> My question for the group is this. Is it absolutely a must for a BC to be involved in sheep herding or the agility sports or rescue...etc. etc.? these sports long term I guess can be hard on their bodies. Can they be happy as pets who get lots of exercise and play time with me? Georgia Georgia, before your thread jumps the tracks completely *starts popping the popcorn* I just wanted to say I absolutely agree with you. I've lived with loads of different breeds and BC are hands down the easiest IMO. I don't know about working sheep being hard on their bodies over the long term. Injuries happen, sure, and it can take a toll on the joints. But then many of us do things that are hard on our bodies but sure are fun! Seriously I'd bet over the long term the benefits of the exercise and mental stimulation outweigh the hazards. But certainly BC can be happy without working sheep. Mine were perfectly happy before we started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greylite Posted February 24, 2008 Report Share Posted February 24, 2008 Treat the dogs as individuals. You'll know if he's happy or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenbo Posted February 24, 2008 Report Share Posted February 24, 2008 Ken, please stop breeding. For the lurkers out there, please understand that the above quote is a very common misconception by people who are too lazy to put in the hard work and dedication it takes to prove the working ability in their dogs prior to breeding them. Many backyard breeders and puppymills will come up with all kinds of excuses in order to breed their dogs. Please note that herding everything, i.e. cats, eachother, lawn mowers, people, tractors, etc. is not only a behavior many find unacceptable, but is in most cases downright dangerous. Beyond that, it proves nothing about what dogs would actually do once introduced to livestock. Jodi, I knew it would come to this, another bleeding heart. Next you'll want to save the earthworms, stop global warming and join PETA. What I do with my dogs is my business and if you knew a little about me and my dogs maybe you would change your hateful remarks. But now that you have open up the floodgate here it comes. I assure you that I AND the puppys that I have sold have a better life that most of the dogs that belong to the owners on this board. Most of these people think that if they rescue a dog it is a great thing to and is the "chique" thing to say and do. Have you ever notices the pictures on the site. Most of the dogs live in a subdivision or apartment and they sleep in a 3 X 3 cage. Heck, I have even seen 3 full sized BC in one cage on this board. Where is your mouth on this. Is this best for the dog to stay in a cage all day and play when the owner gets home?? Most owners think that a walk will do the trick. Well it won't. I do understand keeping the breed as it was meant to be. But has any dog breed been kept pure? Every PB dog had a function weither it was to kill rats or save children. BC's was to work stock. Is Fly-Ball or Agility keeping the breed pure? Of course not, but it does keep the dogs enterained. Maybe if you wanted to get on a bandwagon, why don't you get on this one "if you rescue a BC, you must use the animal for hurding or not be able it get it" This statement was an answer to a question! No, it is not a must. They do need a drain to get off the engery and I know that they seem to never get tired. I would love to have sheep or agility for my 3 BC's but there is not a chapter within 100 miles and I don't need sheep for my dogs to herd. My BC's will herd anything, cat, each other, lawn mower, me, tractor or anything so don't think you need sheep. Some of the best exercise is a frisbie or tennis ball. I found if you use a tennis racket rather than throw it you can do it longer and the ball will go farther. They can be very happy with just you. Did you even see this statement? All 3 of mine are companions. I do make sure they get a good run in every day but Sunday, and I try to do some trick training daily and some kind of 'field trip' at least once a week, a long walk at an open space, a visit to a friend, even a trip to shopping center where I can park and let them sniff around the vacant field, then do a little bit of distraction training. This is just my point, most of the people think this is enough "a good run and a long walk in open space" Just for your information, My dogs are always out, they are never caged or chained. Where I live, I have 230 acres and 10 acres cleared for my home and my two lakes. I have one litter once a year and the new owners cannot sell, give away or breed any of the puppys. I keep in contact with dogs and even board some of them I will not sell a dog that Will not have a good home by my standards. Period!!! I assure I am not too lazy to do the best for my dogs. I am a registered vet tech with 5 years experance. Just because they don't go to fly-ball, dosent make them bad or me a bad breeder. Just because my dogs don't hurd Am I a bad owner?? To most of this board I sure I am, Just think, If it wasn't for people like me, you bleeding hearts wouldn't have a dog. Another fact is that I have rescued dogs and I have a family member is doing it now. She had a nice house at one time, the dogs have distroyed it tearing up everything up including all of the furniture. She won't get out because she fills guilty, Is this the answer? In reading most of your post, you seem to have a very big chip on your sholder. Maybe you like to see your name on the post and feel important. This post is to help people, not to make them feel guilty. Who in the hell made you the post police?? From the evil breeder Ken Flame away, I sure you'll email your bleading heart friends Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted February 24, 2008 Report Share Posted February 24, 2008 Kenbo, Have you bothered to read the sticky posted at the top of the General Border Collie Discussion page? No? I didn't think so. For your convenience then, here it is, posted by list moderator Eileen Stein (hint: pay close attention to the second and third points): Welcome to the BC Boards -- READ THIS FIRST Welcome to the BC Boards. We hope you will find the answers to any questions you may have here, as well as an opportunity to get to know and exchange views with other border collie owners. These Boards are a part of the website All About Border Collies, maintained by the United States Border Collie Club, Inc. (USBCC). You might want to read a bit to get the flavor of the Boards before posting. While all views are welcome, the overall philosophy which prevails on the Boards is in line with that of the USBCC. Basically, it can be summed up as follows: We who love and value border collies are concerned about both the welfare of individual dogs, and the welfare of the breed as a whole. For the good of the breed, border collies should be bred only for working ability. The border collie breed was created by farmers and shepherds who wanted to develop a dog which could help them manage their livestock. They bred only to produce good workers, and that singleness of purpose created the breed we love. Changing the way border collies are bred will change the breed itself. Therefore, breeding dogs who have not proven themselves as useful herding dogs, or breeding for appearance/color, or breeding for sports or for "good pets," or breeding for anything other than working ability (which includes the health and temperament necessary for working) is harmful to the breed. Border collie owners who don't use their dogs to work livestock are not second-class citizens. Because border collies have been bred for a very demanding job, they have the physical, mental and emotional traits to be good at almost anything a dog can do. They generally don't make good pets for people who have little interest in a dog and little time to spend with it. But for people who are prepared to devote a lot of time and attention to their dog(s), border collies can be excellent companions, and excellent partners for a variety of activities, both formal and informal. If you love your border collie, and give him/her a good home, you are doing right by your dog. Just leave the breeding to those who do train and work their dogs on livestock, and who have the knowledge to breed to the working standard. Border collies should not be registered with the AKC. The AKC recognized the border collie in 1994, over the protests of the vast majority of border collie owners and organizations in the US. (For more details about the AKC takeover, read this ). But the AKC defines breeds by their appearance, and encourages and rewards breeding for appearance. This is okay for some breeds, but is detrimental to a breed like the border collie, which has always been defined and shaped by its work. Because the AKC is so influential in the dog world, our only hope to preserve the integrity of the border collie--to keep it a useful working dog, in contrast to the many AKC breeds which were once useful working dogs but are no longer--is to keep it separate and apart from the AKC. The best place to get a border collie for livestock work is from a reputable breeder of working dogs--not someone who merely breeds "from working lines," but someone who trains and uses his/her dogs on stock, and is breeding to produce the utmost in herding ability. The best place to get a border collie for companionship or for dog sports is from the same kind of breeder, or (preferably, in most cases) from border collie rescue. Buying a pup from breeders who register with the AKC is bad for the breed. So is buying a pup from a pet shop, or from a breeder you know only through an internet website, and in such cases you run the risk of supporting a puppy mill and getting an unhealthy, temperamentally-unsound pup besides. We take border collies seriously. We try to take good care of our own dogs, learning and sharing knowledge about their health, feeding, training, work and general welfare. And we do our best to look out for the interests of the breed as a whole, by supporting the measures that will keep them the world?s premier herding dog. We're glad to have you with us. Feel free to ask any questions you may have, and to share your experiences with your dogs. Advertising puppies or dogs for sale or for stud service is not allowed, and while we are comfortable with robust debate, courtesy is expected at all times and flaming is not permitted. We look forward to hearing from you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenbo Posted February 24, 2008 Report Share Posted February 24, 2008 I did read it and I have read it, Your point, another bleeding heart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenbo Posted February 24, 2008 Report Share Posted February 24, 2008 Kenbo,Have you bothered to read the sticky posted at the top of the General Border Collie Discussion page? No? I didn't think so. For your convenience then, here it is, posted by list moderator Eileen Stein (hint: pay close attention to the second and third points): Why don't you answer the questions no answer? "No? I didn't think so" Is this a world law? This is just an opinion. From the evil breeder. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted February 24, 2008 Report Share Posted February 24, 2008 Interesting (though transparent) strategy: ignore the gigantic inconsistency between the philosophy of this board and your breeding practice while calling everyone else names. Oh my, you sure put me in my place. Jodi, too. I bet everyone who disagrees with you is a "bleeding heart." (Aside: do you actually know the definition of bleeding heart? Because it doesn't seem to apply in this case, even as the slur you obviously intend it to be.) Since this appears to be the extent of the explanation of your logic, there's not really any point in arguing about this. I'll just recommend that you read the sticky again. Carefully, this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenbo Posted February 24, 2008 Report Share Posted February 24, 2008 Interesting (though transparent) strategy: ignore the gigantic inconsistency between the philosophy of this board and your breeding practice while calling everyone else names. Oh my, you sure put me in my place. Jodi, too. I bet everyone who disagrees with you is a "bleeding heart." (Aside: do you actually know the definition of bleeding heart? Because it doesn't seem to apply in this case, even as the slur you obviously intend it to be.) Since this appears to be the extent of the explanation of your logic, there's not really any point in arguing about this. I'll just recommend that you read the sticky again. Carefully, this time. Did you even read my post??? I can't stand it anymore... Kenbo...don't you breed your border collies? Sigh... Your first response was not what I expected from a very concerning person. I especially liked your "Sigh..." very classy and (though transparent). Just what is wrong with any of my breeding practices? Just answer the questions, "Carefully, this time" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted February 24, 2008 Report Share Posted February 24, 2008 I read your post, Kenbo. The problem I have with your breeding practices is that you are not basing your breeding decisions on the stock working ability of the dogs in question. Point 2 in the sticky addresses this quite clearly. No one cares what activities you do with your dogs, but when you decide to breed border collies without regard to their ability to work stock (that is, sheep or cattle, not cats, kids, or other dogs) to a high level, then you are breeding irresponsibly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenbo Posted February 24, 2008 Report Share Posted February 24, 2008 Lauria, thanks for reading it. #1 It does make scense and I understand that thought. Should I never have a BC if I don't work the dog with cattle or sheep? Good point though. #2 In the original post, I was answering a question about my dogs, nothing else. Where I have a problem is when people call me lazy, irresesponsible and a lurker. While I agree there and sooooooooo many puppy mills out there and yes I feel that they need to be inspected and receive a license, I really am on your side and agree with everything. I go to great legenths to have and shelter my dogs, more that most people. It breaks my heart to see and read what some people do with their dog on this post. I guess the real problem is that the first BC we rescued. He was nurtured. We loved him so much, we wanted more because we have the time and room and money. No I don't work with cattle or goats or sheep and I don't think people who work their animal once a year on a field trip cuts the mustard either. We did great research, driving nearly 280 for one and 500 miles for the other. I would not purchase from most breeders I went to. After we had a male and female, we waited several years and then bred them and then of course, we had puppies. I do not breed for money and I am very selective about the new owners. If there is a wrong here, I love the breed, that is my sin. But don't call me names or make me feel like I'm doing something wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greylite Posted February 24, 2008 Report Share Posted February 24, 2008 There are plenty of well bred BCs who aren't cut out to be stock dogs. My boy Bandit is a decent example. Dogs from a working cattle farm. He wasn't cut out for that life. He certainly is pet quality but his breeder didn't breed for pet quality. They were aiming for dogs to work their cattle. Bandit didn't live up to those standards but the other pups did. He has made a perfect companion dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurae Posted February 24, 2008 Report Share Posted February 24, 2008 Ken, Honestly, you sound like a great dog owner; you just don't fit the main criterion stated on these boards for a responsible breeder (that the dogs are only considered for breeding if they work stock well enough to potentially pass their stockwork abilities on to a new generation). Ken, I had noticed in your previous posts that you mentioned that you bred your dogs. And when you stated here that you didn't work your dogs on stock, yet you were breeding them, I saw a red flag. I have no doubts that your dogs are very nice and very well cared for and lead happy lives. However, the ability to work stock to a high level is the first criterion to consider when evaluating a border collie for breedworthiness. If they don't work stock, the rest of the criteria (e.g., soundness, temperment) are irrelevant. And just because the decision to breed border collies responsibly begins with the dogs' stockwork doesn't mean that this is the only criterion to consider when evaluating potential breeding dogs—it's simply the first consideration. And, Greylite, it's entirely true that not all border collies are cut out to be stockdogs—it's just that those dogs who do not work stock (whether because they are not cut out to be stockdogs or they simply do not have the opportunity to prove that they can work stock to a high level) shouldn't be bred. Border collies are just different from other breeds that way. They are the great dogs they are because they have been consistently bred to work stock. When you stop breeding dogs who you know have the ability to work stock, you are changing the breed. Maybe it's not so apparent in the next generation, or even the third generation. But by the fourth and fifth and every one thereafter, the things that make a border collie a border collie are further and further eroding. Thus, it's definitely not necessary not work stock with all border collies to give those dogs happy and fulfilling lives, but the only border collies that should only be bred are the ones who have proven stockworking ability. PS: I do apologize to Jedismom for the thread hijack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stockdogranch Posted February 24, 2008 Report Share Posted February 24, 2008 OK, Ken, I'll jump in here. I don't have a chip on my shoulder; I just care deeply about this breed and its future. Nobody gives a rat's ass what you DO with your dogs--agility, flyball, SAR, sitting on the couch with you eating bon-bons, whatever. That's all great stuff, and wonderful that you see to it that your dogs are well cared for and loved, and it's great that they are a big part of your life. It would be great if ALL dogs were treated as well. Now if you really read the sticky, you would realize that the general consensus on this board promotes just that--do something with your dog other than just leave it tied up in the yard. No one says you MUST work stock with your dogs. HOWEVER (and this is a HUGE however), just because you are a fine dog owner, does not qualify you to breed a BC. You say you've read the sticky; if that is so, then why can't you see that no one is putting you down for not working your dogs on stock, but the fact that you BREED them without having ever done so is an issue for many here. That's the point. Period. ONLY breed those that have proven their working ability either with REAL ranch/farm work on a regular basis, or by being competitive at an Open level in ISDS style trials. That's it. Leave the breeding to those that know enough about the true BC (what is has always been bred for, and the qualities to look for before breeding), and just enjoy your dogs, A ETA: I se I was posting at the same time as Laura. She said it much more patiently than I... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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