Has anyone ever known a slow maturing dog to do well?

[Bill Orr]

Have you ever known of a young dog that was slow to keen-up (12 months) that ever made a top trial dog? By top trial dog I mean one that would finish in the top 20 % of 80 % of the trials entered.

 

By being slow, I mean not bearing much pressure in the initial training stages before looking more to the trainer than to the stock. Also assuming the parents were very good dogs and same litter siblings were very keen. Not slow as in stupid or slow moving.

 

If so, who trained it?

 

If you had such a dog that you were hoping was going to get with it, what are a couple of the things you would be sure to do and things you would not do?

 

When would you pull the plug if you were only interested in a dog that could be a trial dog?

 

Thanks,

Bill

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Darn, now I wish I had saved the post I deleted out of "Ask an Expert"

 

Jack Knox tells of a bitch he ran (she is in the American champions book, first entry I think), who lacked a bit of something for quite a while, then she turned on really suddenly when he started working on shedding with her. She didn't even like shedding at first, but the way he approached it, something just clicked on at last and she did everything with enthusiasm from then on.

 

However, in my experience, I feel that it does me, and the breed, no good to try to mess with dogs that take forever to "get it" for whatever reason. My thinking is that the backbone of this breed is not trial people who are willing to keep going and do whatever it takes, for a dog with some promise. It is the farmers, who don't have time or experience to fool around for a year or more. The more "out of the box" this breed remains, the better it's chances are to remain a mainstay stockdog in the future. I am essentially a farmer and should breed the kind of dog that is right for me.

 

That's my personal philosophy, because I'm not a competitive open handler, so any dog I consider as a possible breeder has to be not only competent, but indeed, exceptional, to make up for my being a nobody. Your mileage may vary as a true contender, and ditto for others at the top of the game out there.

[kelpiegirl]

I would see if I could have someone else work with the dog, and get a second opinion regarding how it "looks" and go from there. I have no anecdotal evidence to point to, so I guess I would just try and see exactly what is happening, and when with the dog when the dog looks "off"...

I am interested as well, in hearing from others who's dogs were slow on the curve, but in the end turned out to be "all that".

[Wendy V]

Bill,

 

How about Kathy Knox and Scott? Wasn't he a bit of a late starter? The Knox's like to take dogs along slowly, so maybe they would be a resource for your question.

[Smokjbc]

Hi,

 

Wasn't there a story about McCrae's Nan, that he thought she was just so-so until 3 or so, I believe he said she improved greatly after time off for a knee injury. I could have the dog/person mixed up, but I seem to remember a story like that.

 

Personally, the slowest maturing dog that I had that worked out for me was ready to train seriously at 11 months. The best trial dog (not the top whatever of anything, but barely in Open now ) I have was a complete package, mentally, at 6 months, as well as a old cowdog that I competed in WCDA Open events with fair success. My Nellie was the slower to mature dog, but it wasn't keenness that she lacked, just was a very silly kind of dog until 11-12 months old. She turned out to be my favorite dog and worth waiting for but will never be a world beater.

 

I recently spent a couple of years waiting for another dog to mature/click with me and it was a mistake to wait that long, in my opinion. I knew fairly early on that this dog was not the type of dog I want/need despite being an excellent dog off of stock. Even now, the 3 1/2 month pup I have to replace the dog feels a million times more likely to be a good dog for me and waiting so long meant it was really hard to give up the dog to make room for a better match. So if the dog is over a year and it doesn't feel right, my vote would be to not waste another year (plus a year waiting for the new pup to grow up!). It worked out good in my situation, the new pup feels like the other fast maturing dogs did- she's "all there" and already showing me some exciting stuff.

[Sue R]

Our old Rocket (1/2 Border Collie and 1/2 Aussie, but all Border Collie in appearance and style) didn't even like to look at cows unless he was behind a very solid barrier, up until he was pushing 2 years old. Now, I'm sure his breeding wasn't great, just farm dogs. But when he turned on, he was fearless and repaid our patience and trust by saving Ed's life from an angry mother cow. Maybe he wasn't the best thing for the breed (and he was never used for "purposeful" breeding but he did "get around" in our unenlightened days), but he was worth keeping just for saving Ed's life (and for all the help he provided, especially with angry cows and a rowdy bull or two).

 

Of course, Rocket never was a trial dog and was pretty ineptly trained by the two of us, who were real neophytes without training or mentor.

 

I guess whether or not one wanted to "wait it out" for a slow-maturing dog would be their choice. Many dogs show what they've got at an early age, without pressure or pushing, and are probably much better for breeding. As dogs that come into our household are there for life, we'd probably just keep whatever we got.

 

By the way, Bill, thanks for being so friendly (you and Susan) at that northern VA trial some years back. I've never forgotten your kindness.

[Bill Orr]

Thanks, Rebecca,

 

Hope I get to check in with the Knoxs sometime this spring.

 

Bev's answer on the expert page was useful too and almost nets it out.

 

The breeding part you speak of is a little more nebulous. Both of this pup's parents are gungho and without a doubt serious trial or farm dog over-achievers. My opinion, having had the good fortune to participate in both is that the BC trialers do as much or more for the stock dog breeding for the purpose you support than the farmer/agriculturalists.

 

A more interesting direction here might be to ask, out of a litter of well bred pups (assumption), how many have "it". Of course, they all go to different environments. But regardless of species (human included), not every sibling has "it".

 

Making that decision to move on is the crux of my problem.

 

Thanks for everyone's input.

Bill

[Bill Orr]

Thanks Jamie,

That's where I'm leaning I suppose. New territory for us as we've never "divorce, fired, etc" a dog. Big babies, eh?

Bill

"

I recently spent a couple of years waiting for another dog to mature/click with me and it was a mistake to wait that long, in my opinion. I knew fairly early on that this dog was not the type of dog I want/need despite being an excellent dog off of stock. Even now, the 3 1/2 month pup I have to replace the dog feels a million times more likely to be a good dog for me and waiting so long meant it was really hard to give up the dog to make room for a better match. So if the dog is over a year and it doesn't feel right, my vote would be to not waste another year (plus a year waiting for the new pup to grow up!). It worked out good in my situation, the new pup feels like the other fast maturing dogs did- she's "all there" and already showing me some exciting stuff.

[Bill Orr]

HI Sue,

We still see Melanie Chang occasionally (in California now) who was also at that trial at Susan Rhodes. It was fun. Come see us in Oregon.

Bill

 

"By the way, Bill, thanks for being so friendly (you and Susan) at that northern VA trial some years back. I've never forgotten your kindness.

[Smokjbc]

A more interesting direction here might be to ask, out of a litter of well bred pups (assumption), how many have "it". Of course, they all go to different environments. But regardless of species (human included), not every sibling has "it".

 

Making that decision to move on is the crux of my problem.

 

Thanks for everyone's input.

Bill

>>>>

 

 

Hi again,

 

In my case, the problem was compounded by the fact that not only did the dog I gave up have several very (Nursery finalists, etc)successful full siblings, but that we also have a littermate to her that has a ton of potential and has trained up very nicely, especially considering he is a first stockdog for my SO and very pushy to boot. The dog was working keenly at least, just not my type of dog, so I held out to the bitter end on that decision. I think, also, there is such a big leap from "ok working dog" to successful trial dog that if one does keep dogs to trial, you have to expect that some won't make it. I have two "pet slots" in my life that, had either one been vacant, I would have kept this dog, but those slots are currently being held by two dogs that apparently plan on living forever .

[blackacre]

You do sometimes get one dud in an otherwise stellar litter. Sad but true. I had one out a repeat breeding, lots of top flyers in the first litter and, as it turned out, in his litter too. Poor little bugger never even got close to making it--and he went to a VERY highly qualified trainer after me who did his best with him. Actually, we speculated that he might have been dropped on his head by his mother, or whatever the dog equivalent to that is.

Happily, he found his niche with a (very) small cattle operation where he became the farmer's best buddy and rode around in his pickup with him everywhere. Happy as a clam, dumb as a box of rocks.

A

[Liz P]

And yet another form of the same question... How many pups out of a litter have to be good stock dogs to consider the litter a success?

 

I've got a couple of pups, great grandkids of Alasdair's Nan actually, who are taking a long time to mature. At 11 months they were just showing me that they might be ready for serious training. (Which has now been put on hold because of all the SNOW )

[red russel]

is 11 months really considered taking a long time to mature? Doesn't seem that old to me.

[kelpiegirl]

Well, maybe the snow is a good thing- will give them more time to cook. You know, I would rather a dog be a little slow to mature, than a dog I thought could handle the pressure, so I trained him early, and then it backfired some how. You will know, I suspect pretty fast, when you start working them, what they bring to the table- which is nice when you start them later The answer to your question: Why, the one(s) you keep of course!

 

And yet another form of the same question... How many pups out of a litter have to be good stock dogs to consider the litter a success?

 

I've got a couple of pups, great grandkids of Alasdair's Nan actually, who are taking a long time to mature. At 11 months they were just showing me that they might be ready for serious training. (Which has now been put on hold because of all the SNOW )

[juliepoudrier]

I think 11 months is a little early to decide the dog isn't a keeper. My first open dog was a very early starter, but her pups have been a bit slower to mature. Of course some of the difference is related to the fact that I had lots of free time to work with her and not so much to work with the pups, so things are just coming along more slowly. I wouldn't wait years, certainly, but really a pup isn't even going to go into serious training till it's around a year old so I don't think I'd be making decisions at a younger age. Of course, there are some exceptions to this, and trainers better and more experienced than I could probably decide sooner, but I think a lot of young dogs are passed over rather quickly when they may actually stand the chance of being good ones. I think it boils down to the fact that very experienced handlers can probably tell pretty quickly if a dog is for them, and move it on if it's not. The rest of us take a bit longer....

 

Back to that first open dog. I trialed her in nursery that first year I was running her (when she was a year old). I believe we qualified, but then another of my dogs got hurt, and I took some time off from trialing (several months). It was the best thing I could have done for that youngster. The following year, she qualified for nursery many times over, ran a stellar year in pro-novice, and moved to open before she was three, qualifying up for the finals our first year in open. The temptation to push her as an early starter could just as easily have ruined her, especially in my novice (at the time) hands. The three-month break was a lifesaver for her I think. So there can be a disadvantage, so to speak, to the early starter in that one may be tempted to push them too hard, to the detriment of any sort of long-term success.

 

The best advice I can give is that if you are unhappy with a youngster's progress and/or working relationship with you and you've been working at it for, say, six months or a year (or whatever time frame seems right for you), then it's probably not going to get better and it's time to move on. There's no sense in both of you being unhappy, and dogs that might not cut it for a competitive open handler can oftentimes be just the ticket for someone starting out.

 

And yet another form of the same question... How many pups out of a litter have to be good stock dogs to consider the litter a success?

 

I think the answer to this is complex and really depends on your definition of a good stock dog. In one litter I know, one of the pups went to a cattle farmer and does daily farm chores. He liked her so much he asked (pestered) the breeder to repeat the breeding. From that same litter is a successful open trial dog. Another from that litter is a farm dog with whom the owner is quite happy, although she doesn't like to trial, so the dog has no trial experience. A fourth puppy in that litter has trialed some on sheep and has been successful in cattle trials. The fifth pup in that litter went to someone who played a bit with stockwork and maybe entered an AHBA trial or two, but couldn't be considered a working dog in the sense that one could evaluate the litter from her. I personally think this litter was a success, since the people who took the pups for farm work or trialing have had success in or were very happy with the work of the dogs in their particular venue. Does that mean someone looking for all open trial winners would consider the litter a success? Probably not, since only one pup from the litter was trialed extensively and could be considered an open trial winer. But if the goal of the breeder was to produce good working stockdogs, then that goal was achieved, since 80% of the litter made their owners happy with the work the owner expected them to do. The converse is that if there are one or two "duds" in a litter, that doesn't mean the litter wasn't a success. Genetics are so complicated that you just can't predict how the genes will combine in a particular individual. If half the puppies in a litter go on to successful trial careers, then I think you could consider the litter a success. If you wanted to repeat the breeding, you'd just have to be prepared for the fact that X number might not be great workers. But then second time around, the genes might combine differently, and that could be to the good or the detriment of the entire litter (as for as being stellar workers goes). The odds are with you in that case, but it's still just a crap shoot. All this is JMO of course.

 

J.

[Smokjbc]

is 11 months really considered taking a long time to mature? Doesn't seem that old to me.

 

 

Hi,

 

I didn't mean to say I thought that was excessively old, just that in my experience, the better dogs have been "out of the box" for the most part and the 11 month starter was the oldest dog that I felt did right for me. I did place a dog at that age that came out later to work and was still just a so-so kinda dog, another dog I got at 1 1/2 years and kept for 6 months and he never came around either. Conversely, my first dog was very keen and appeared talented at a young age and nothing ever came of her- first time handler combined with fast, pressure sensitive dog wasn't a good one. I think too when I talk of good early starters, I don't just mean dogs excited to work, but dogs that also have a lot to offer stock sense wise and want to control stock in a thoughtful way.

 

I agree too that it's very tempting to push these early dogs and that what is good at 6 months will still be there at 1 1/2 years. I just personally have not had a dog that was so-so at 1 year that surprised me later, I'm sure they exist though.

[Jean&Co]

Along the same lines. How do some of you determine if the young dog is going to have enough push??? It this case, the dog has always been super keen, but he is just so steady for an 11 month old. I know time will tell, but do you worry if your youngster is steady too soon?

 

So I am curious about how many has had young dogs that seems to be lacking push as youngsters but turn out fine.

 

Jean

[Pipedream Farm]

Along the same lines. How do some of you determine if the young dog is going to have enough push??? It this case, the dog has always been super keen, but he is just so steady for an 11 month old. I know time will tell, but do you worry if your youngster is steady too soon?

 

So I am curious about how many has had young dogs that seems to be lacking push as youngsters but turn out fine.

 

Jean

 

I trained the two dogs I'm trialing now in open (Bette and Rae). Both of these dogs were so steady and easy going as youngsters, I worried to death that they would fizzle out with age. I thought maybe they'd make nice novice dogs, but not make it to open. I actually considered selling both of them as youngsters because I thought they weren't keen enough. Instead, both dogs only got more keen with age. Now I have a youngster (BJ) who is incredibly intense and I'm worried she's too over the top --see, I just can't be happy!

Also, my first dog Starr did not turn on to sheep until she was about 15 months. Now I never actually tried to work her before that, so I can't say for sure that she wouldn't have worked younger. She was allowed to watch dogs work sheep and wasn't all that interested. When she did show an interest though, she was all intense from that point on. She started right out balancing and progressed more quickly than a younger dog would have --except for the part about her being my first dog! I did make it all the way to open level with her.

Renee