Evaluating Pups

[Agility IGs]

Hello all! We are adding a BC to our pack. We currently have 4 Italian Greyhounds and an Australian Shepherd. I compete in agility with 2 of the IGs and the Aussie. We would like our BC to be a manageable member of our family, since we have small dogs and a toddler and be able to use it in agility. The litter that we have a deposit on has 2 males we are interested in and a female. The drive and temperment is being evaluated by the breeder. The one male is super high drive, but will probably be chosen by the person ahead of us. The other male is a 6-7 on the drive scale and the female a 3-4 according to the breeder. Based on looks alone we really like the bitch. But, the breeder says she is a slow learner and has a short attention span. How accurate are puppy evaluations done at 7 weeks? Aren't all BCs smart? I am just looking for some help, because while I know lot of people will say not to pick a puppy based on looks alone, face it we are all drawn to a certain type of dog. Any chances that as the puppy matures she will improve a little? Thoughts?

 

Thanks!

 

Stacey

[AKB]

I'm not sure, I don't do agility, but personally I think getting an older dog would make more sense. Even if it comes from generations of agility dogs, that doesn't mean it will be great for agility automatically. And of course they are smart, but that doesn't mean they are all good at one thing. Plus, don't you have to wait until they are a year or two old to start agility training?

[Geoffrey]

I would listen to the breeder's recommendation - they know their lines and have probably produced similar puppies before so they can give an educated guess on how each "type" of puppy in their lines will turn out.

 

ETA: agility foundation training can begin almost as soon as you get the pup - they just can't jump or do full height obstacles for a while. Instead there's a lot of foundation training.

[MrSnappy]

But, the breeder says she is a slow learner and has a short attention span. How accurate are puppy evaluations done at 7 weeks? Aren't all BCs smart?

 

I think puppy tests are a bunch of bunk. I've not met one tester yet with a crystal ball, and the pups I have raised have changed from week to week. I wouldn't buy a dog from someone who claimed to be able to test drive and temperament at 7 weeks of age.

 

Plus, what AKB said.

 

RDM

[kelpiegirl]

Hmmm. Sex- get the one that will work with your pack, regardless of whether there is one in this litter. Sometimes bitches can't tolerate other bitches, etc. What sort of test is she doing on drive? The breeder may have the female selected for someone else- so, if you want the female, after she has passed your criteria, take the female. Unless your living is agility, as in you do this every day, and compete all year around, you really don't need an over the top dog, even IF you said yes to the aforementioned, you probably STILL wouldn't want one You want a stable, sane, fun loving puppy, who fits your family- first. Looks may seem important, but in the end, you still have to live with the personality. Seven weeks is really young to evaluate a puppy. What do you know about the parents? Are they stable, good to live with- no weird personality quirks? Remember, doing agility is a hobby, and if something happens to the dog physically, where it can no longer do agility, you have to be prepared to make adjustments. Puppies do change, so the # thing on drive, really wouldn't hold lots of water for me.

 

 

Hello all! We are adding a BC to our pack. We currently have 4 Italian Greyhounds and an Australian Shepherd. I compete in agility with 2 of the IGs and the Aussie. We would like our BC to be a manageable member of our family, since we have small dogs and a toddler and be able to use it in agility. The litter that we have a deposit on has 2 males we are interested in and a female. The drive and temperment is being evaluated by the breeder. The one male is super high drive, but will probably be chosen by the person ahead of us. The other male is a 6-7 on the drive scale and the female a 3-4 according to the breeder. Based on looks alone we really like the bitch. But, the breeder says she is a slow learner and has a short attention span. How accurate are puppy evaluations done at 7 weeks? Aren't all BCs smart? I am just looking for some help, because while I know lot of people will say not to pick a puppy based on looks alone, face it we are all drawn to a certain type of dog. Any chances that as the puppy matures she will improve a little? Thoughts?

 

Thanks!

 

Stacey

[sweet_ceana]

I am not sure about agility evaluations, but I do know from my dog that there were signs of her fear agression at 5 weeks and 7 weeks that we did not pick up on. She would wait a while before she would approach someone new and she liked to sleep away from the other pups by herself. She wasn't very interested in playing with her siblings, although she did chase them the last 20 minutes before we took her home. There may be something to what the breeder is saying about the pups, but I would not make it your be all end all.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

Ideally, what you do is pick a breeder who you trust to mentor you, and go with the dogs that appeal to you for whatever reason. The breeder's goals should coincide with your own in terms of working ability and temperament. If you don't plan on working the dog, what it took to train the parents to work is still helpful information to you. "drive" is a vague term that means lots of things to lots of people. More meaningful information is whether the dogs are team players and how early they learned that skill, how long it took them to be reliable around stock off leash (impulse control), and whether they took to being "fiddled" with and how early they were able to take what kind of training pressure. Also, when things get rough, how did they react as youngsters? When faced with a difficult stock situation, did they think it through or just react? When faced with extraordinary training pressure, did they shut down or keep looking for answers? Are they natural workers who prefer to be left alone to work things through, or do they like input from people?

 

I think you can see how any of this would apply to sport training, too! Some things you may not yet know what you prefer, since this is your first Border Collie, like whether you would prefer the hair trigger dog or a thinker. But if you pick a breeding where the worst possible combination of the two parents, would produce something you can live with, you can basically just close your eyes, reach in the puppy pile, and take one at random. Or pick a pup based on something arbitrary like color or markings or whether the puppy "picks you."

 

So the short answer is, you can't predict anything in a pup so you have to pick the best breeding possible and then it's just pot luck. And yes, the main thing you have to worry about with a Border Collie is not whether it's smart enough to learn the game, but soundness in body and mind - the same goals that working breeders have.

 

Welcome to the dark side! Do I know you from Mighty Mites?

[jdarling]

Mr. Snappy, I couldn't agree more.

[rosefarm]

Well when we picked out our beagles so many years ago (12?) the breeder said pups that are focused on you are more trainable. at 10 weeks, Edie was at our feet getting the most attention, Archie was running backwards doing is own thing. Edith was by far the more trainable for little tricks because she wanted our attention/love so much. Archie was by far the most calm, faithful saintly dog you can imagine. Just not as worried about everything we do. So to some extent I think he was right. However, I'd like to not have my future judged on the way I behaved at 5, I would say I've changed. I imagine dogs have that do a degree themselves.

 

For what its worth, if you are really worrying about getting the right dog, I too would rescue an evaluated dog. There are so many awesome ones out there.

 

--Denise

[MrSnappy]

Mr. Snappy, I couldn't agree more.

 

Yay!

 

How's your foot?

 

RDM

[Agility IGs]

Thanks for everyone's super fast replies. And you said what I wanted to hear. My husband and I really like the bitch and based on the videos I had seen of her I never would of guessed that she was a lower drive dog. Agility is a pretty big thing in my life. I trial 2-4 times a month and try to keep it going year round, otherwise I get a little stir crazy. But, it is hard to find trials in the summer when you live in FL!!! We considered rescue, because we are a foster family for IG Rescue. But, we have a lot of things to consider in our home, 4 smaller dogs, 3 cats and a young son. Our Aussie has child issues that we have diligently worked through with him. And it makes us a little leary of adding an adult dog into our house. Also, I enjoy the training process of a younger dog and since we are already trialing 3 dogs, we aren't looking to rush into competing with our BC. We will probably have to retire one of our other dogs before we start the BC, just to keep expenses down. Here is our website if you want to take a look.

 

Agility IGs

[border_collie_crazy]

think puppy tests are a bunch of bunk. I've not met one tester yet with a crystal ball, and the pups I have raised have changed from week to week. I wouldn't buy a dog from someone who claimed to be able to test drive and temperament at 7 weeks of age.

 

I also could not agree more. according to Happys puppy eval. she would be usless for everything but would make a good agility dog.......hmm fast foward 7 years and Happy is one of the best flyball dogs in my my area, the best disc dog in her family, a total nateral on sheep and...and..the kicker? she HATES agility lol. so much for that puppy evaluation. Electra(Toller) puppy eval. was that she would be a good preformance and working prospect.. fast forward 1 1/2 years..umm she looks pretty? she should finish AKC and CKC easy. but preformance? working? HA! she doesn't retrieve, has no idea how to swim(quite the water retriever, aint she?), she is petrified of all agility equipment....there goes another puppy eval. down the drain lol

[juliepoudrier]

I think--and I've said this many times before--that when choosing a puppy you should choose the one that appeals to you the most. Like others have said, pups change a lot from week to week and even day to day. I have no experience with agility, but with the three working youngsters I have, I can tell you that from one session on stock to the next they can change dramatically, and the pup I think is "the best" one day may be the biggest dud the next. But if you've chosen the one *you like the best* then you are more likely to see the pup past those dud moments and still be successful (that is, you will try harder with the pup you are more emotionally invested in). Working dog breeders often refer to pups as "pigs in a poke," and it's for the very reason Becca mentioned. There's no way to tell which pup will be the best working dog in a litter. So you go by the breeding, the parents, what you know and have seen of the other relatives, and then choose the pup you like best. As Becca noted, that philosophy should serve a person well when picking any sort of pup. As for "drivey," I suppose much depends on what your definition of drivey is, but if it means the pup's going to grow up to be one of those out-of-control, hair-trigger sorts of dogs you see at sporting events, then I know my answer would be "No, thank you."

 

ETA: In response to your comments about adding an adult dog (which you posted while I was composing this missive), as a foster family you will know that most reputable rescues will have evaluated a dog around children, etc., before placing it. Again, pups can be super socialized with kids and still grow up to not like them much. So getting a pup is less of a guarantee of child-friendliness than getting a young adult rescue that has been in foster and has been evaluated as suitable for homes with children. I'm not trying to talk you out of a pup, but just wanted to point out to anyone else reading this thread that getting a pup and raising it with children doesn't necessarily make a child-friendly or -proof dog, whereas a dog from a reputable rescue that has been evaluated as childproof very likely is childproof.

 

J.

[Rebecca, Irena Farm]

I visited your web site. Oh my goodness, I had hip dysplasia too! I did physical therapy as a toddler. My mom used clinics before that and they didn't catch it - it was my wonderful old pediatrician who saw it on their first visit.

 

ACtually, your experience with your Aussie is a good example of why taking a dog as an adult is a GOOD idea if you have specific requirements. As you know, a foster home wouldn't put a child-aggressive dog with your situation. And at a year old or so, it's pretty obvious whether a dog will have a problem with kids or not. While a puppy can suddenly develop problems out of the blue, problems that are genetic in origin.

 

However, I do understand that someone serious about training enjoys the hands on from the start. I'm not personally into that, but I see that point of view!

 

ETA: LOL Shayna. And I'm sorry to hear Electra's not quite living up to expectations. I know you were really excited about her.

[MrSnappy]

I'm not trying to talk you out of a pup, but just wanted to point out to anyone else reading this thread that getting a pup and raising it with children doesn't necessarily make a child-friendly or -proof dog, whereas a dog from a reputable rescue that has been evaluated as childproof very likely is childproof.

J.

 

Yes, thank you for pointing this out. More than 80% of our owner turn-ins are dogs under 2 who bit, growled at or otherwise threatened the family child or children.

 

My weirdest dog is Tweed. He was the only very young puppy I adopted. I'm sticking with older dogs from now on!

 

RDM

[Agility IGs]

I suppose if we were willing to part with a member of our family we would of turned Boomer, our Aussie in to rescue. As he has snapped and growled at our son. We worked very hard letting Boomer know that the kid rules the roost around here. If he wants to be someplace he has priority over the dogs and if the dogs don't like it, well, they can get up and go someplace else. Boomer's initial reaction was to allow himself to get backed into a corner so to speak and then get growly. Now, if you see the baby coming and you don't want to be part of it, MOVE. Of course, we also train our son to have proper doggie manners and no tail or ear pulling. We look forward to joining the BC world!!!

[bc friend]

Aren't all BCs smart?

 

First of all, welcome to the Board! You sound like a responsible, knowledgeable dog owner and I think everyone on this Board appreciates the efforts you are making to select the right dog for your family - both as a family member and an agility prospect.

 

Yes, IMO, all bc's are smart but some are smarter than others! This is not necessarily a good thing! I have never had a bc I didn't think was easier to train than almost any other breed - they learn quickly and retain the training. However, like any other living being, each bc is an individual - you have smart dogs, very smart dogs and genius level dogs!

 

Good luck w/your new bc!

[nowwown]

Hi,

 

I just want to add that we got Cody as an 8-week old puppy. He LOVED LOVED LOVED kids and then about a year old, he has little if any interest in anyone under 5' tall or under 12 years old. He will tolerate their petting and squealing over him but he loses interest in about, well, three seconds, and places his butt between them and the road ahead, looking away to the horizon.

 

And we socialized him PLENTY with lots of little kids from day one. Lots of playtime, etc. with kids. Now he is barely acknowledging any young person.

[Lenajo]

Your site is nice. Iggys and Aussies

 

I too will chime in on the older dog benefits. With a small one in the house you really don't need another problem child. I applaud you for making it work with your current pets that preceeded baby, but "the more the merrier" is very not true when you add yet another dog who may not like babies or even agility when it grows up.

 

Also, being from the South, I know there are very, very few decent breeders of Border Collies in Florida. Lots of show lines, sport lines, pet/back yard breeder stuff. Weird registries abound too...CKC (Continental Kennel Club), IBCA etc. I hope you are doing you shopping with care and avoiding anyone who is not breeding the true working Border Collie in a responsible and ethical manner.

 

As for puppy tests, they range from helpful to absolutely useless. If you trust, really trust, the breeder and they've had a lot of interaction with the pups they can usually tell you more than any puppy test. Otherwise, you better be sure you like the parents (and grandparents if possible) and can live happily with the worst possible conglomoration of their genetic faults.

[Geoffrey]

As for puppy tests, they range from helpful to absolutely useless. If you trust, really trust, the breeder and they've had a lot of interaction with the pups they can usually tell you more than any puppy test. Otherwise, you better be sure you like the parents (and grandparents if possible) and can live happily with the worst possible conglomoration of their genetic faults.

 

That's basically what I was attempting to say, but worded better.

 

 

Oh, and slightly OT: as for Electra, retrievers are notoriously slow to mature (especially compared to herding breeds, and particularly BCs) so Electra may yet surprise you. Plus, in my experience, they tend to learn in a somewhat different style. Of course it depends on the lines and all bajillion other factors.

[Guest WoobiesMom]

I suppose if we were willing to part with a member of our family we would of turned Boomer, our Aussie in to rescue. As he has snapped and growled at our son. We worked very hard letting Boomer know that the kid rules the roost around here. If he wants to be someplace he has priority over the dogs and if the dogs don't like it, well, they can get up and go someplace else. Boomer's initial reaction was to allow himself to get backed into a corner so to speak and then get growly. Now, if you see the baby coming and you don't want to be part of it, MOVE. Of course, we also train our son to have proper doggie manners and no tail or ear pulling. We look forward to joining the BC world!!!

 

It sounds like you've worked this out well, but I just wanted to add my little .02 worth. I agree that the dogs should know all 2 legged members of the pack outrank them. But, at the same time, having had a dog and small children at the same time (and their friends) there are times when a kid will pursue a dog who is trying to leave the area because the kid wants to handle, play with, etc the dog. What worked for us was to designate the dog's crate as sacred ground. No kids allowed anywhere near it when the dog went to it. It gave the dog a safety zone to retreat to where he knew he would not be messed with and it taught the kids to respect his space as well. They could call the dog and if he came out to them, that was fine, but if he stayed in his kennel that was a signal to leave him be. It might help Boomer to know he has a safety spot that is his time out from kids spot.

 

Good luck with your search as well! I'm currently looking to add a 2nd and have alot of items on my list that need to be met, I know it can involve alot of different factors requiring much more thought than that 1st dog decision that seems (to me) to be so much easier.

[Pat W.]

Hi, I would talk to handlers that are running border collies in your area, ask them where they got their dog. Although there are alot of nice agility bc's out there, I would rather look at a dog from working lines vs. someone that is breeding agility dog to agility dog. Athough there are some really nice sport dogs out there it doesn't guarantee that the ability or desire to do agility will be passed on.

 

That said there are some really nice young dogs that come from rescue too. Right now I have a really nice pup that I got from rescue for myself as my next agility partner. He came into rescue as a puppy of 10wks old, something that does not normally happen, I got him almost immediately and he is just now turning 1yr old, he is a wonderful young dog athletic, very high drive, bidable and with a strong need to work at something. My 12 yr old daughters agility partner is from the same rescue, Meg is med drive bitch that settles nicely in the house. She can be snarky with dogs outside our pack when they stick their face in her's, but that's her right in my book.

 

So in short definately talk to bc handlers see where they got their dogs and if you can contact their breeder, also give rescue a really strong look

[Shetlander]

The other male is a 6-7 on the drive scale and the female a 3-4 according to the breeder. Based on looks alone we really like the bitch. But, the breeder says she is a slow learner and has a short attention span. How accurate are puppy evaluations done at 7 weeks? Aren't all BCs smart?

 

I think it depends on the breeder (and the tester, who should be different than the breeder), which may be hard for you to know. One thing I can say for Quinn's breeder is she really does know her puppies and was amazingly accurate about his temperament and abilities based on observations plus testing done at 7 weeks. The only place she was off was in stating he was likely to be Vecro while in fact he's been a confident, independent guy from the moment I met him.

 

I'm puzzled about the attention span thing because I thought very young BC puppies didn't have an attention span . But I'm not a breed expert. Quinn is my first BC and had an attention span the length of a strobe light when he came home at 9 weeks old. I've heard other BC owners say the same thing about their pups.

 

My own tip for checking out puppies or dogs for "drive" is to see if he is a natural, happy retriever. That's one of the puppy sub tests and is supposed to show the dog's willingness to work with you. My two best performance and highest drive dogs have been crazy to retrieve. The first was my rescue Lhasa who I got at 9 months old. He didn't have a single manner at the time (he landed in the middle of my dinner plate his first night with me) so I'm sure his first family didn't "train" him to fetch. The second is Quinn who was fetching at 7 weeks. But the fetch thing is my personal bias.

 

I also think getting an adolescent or adult dog is going is more of a guarantee for temperament than a puppy. Quinn has turned out great as the breeder predicted but I've known other puppies who developed fears or dislikes as they've matured. With a dog, what you see is more likely to be what you get, especially with soundness issues.